I really think we should ask the player for permission to delete other chr files.

[Wingdinggaster656]

In v0.12.12:

chr files always deleted on startup now

That's a change from #9641. I had already talked about this there.

I completely know that all .chr files have no actual meaning to MAS. I really know. I know MAS doesn't even do any check for them before v0.12.12. And I also know that monika.chr is causing a lot of confusion to people. I know all of these. What I want to say is, just check our mas_safeToRefDokis(). We made Monika not to offend the players who love other club members in her words, and we did a good job in many details. And after this, we now delete all club members.

Yes, I know that in the background setting of MAS, character files have nothing to do with real characters, but will all players 100% agree with this? Many players resent Monika's behavior of deleting other characters in the original game, and now we want to make this happen again - and do not give players even a choice? Can't we at least ask the players whether they care about this and whether they want Monika to do this?

Just give players a choice. Ask them about this. By asking, players will also pay more attention to the background settings of the chr file in MAS (that is, the chr file has no meaning at all), which will also reduce confusion.

And by the way, I think it may be OK for Monika to delete her own file without permission - after all, it is her own file.

[dreamscached]

What I want to say is, just check our mas_safeToRefDokis()

Players might say once that they don't mind her bringing up other dokis, but this doesn't cancel out the fact some still may get confused over it. In my opinion it is still necessary to remove them and point out there is no need in them anymore, but do it either in introduction or later on in queued topic that will explain the change.

[Booplicate]

It's not part of the lore, not done by Monika. We're removing the unused files for utility purposes. There's no other "club members." Initially I planned to only remove monika.chr, but to keep the directory where we create and read dozens of files in/from, as well as to keep our code simpler and more reliable, we went with just deleting all .chr files.

MAS, like any other program, may add and remove files within its working directory. If you got attached to some files or they contain important information, better move it to some other place. Do not store anything sensitive in a working directory of a program. Unlike the monika file, .chr files are easily replaceable - can grab them off a new DDLC install (can get DDLC from here).

[Wingdinggaster656]

This is not just "unused content" -- these character files have a profound meaning for DDLC players.

We had so many relatively insensitive areas where we had done perfect checks and provided players with numerous choices, and now we had so recklessly deleted files that might be important to players in such an obvious, easy to notice, and sensitive place.

It hasn't been a day since the update, and I've already seen several backlash against it -- one example is our v0.12.12 release page.

For whatever reason, we really need to ASK our players. Give them a choice. If they don't mind, delete it. And if they do mind, then keep it. It's just giving the player a choice.

Please consider what I have said.

[Booplicate]

First, I think we should set some boundaries. Please, don't speak on behalf of the dev team (we, our, etc), you have been doing it for a long time. Speak from your own perspective to not bring any confusion to this and other conversations.

This is not just "unused content" -- these character files have a profound meaning for DDLC players.

As I've said, in MAS those are just unused files. If they have a meaning for you, why are they there? Move them somewhere. You don't store sensitive files in directories of other programs? The program directory is the place where the program may add, modify, and remove files. If you don't like it - move the files out.

There's nothing "reckless," no need to make it sound dramatic. We're removing those files the same way we delete monika.chr, various .gift files, and even the actually important and unreplaceable monika file, as well as other files.

Generally speaking,

• when you're installing a DDLC mod, don't you already expect it to modify the DDLC directory, as well as to change the mechanics of the base game
• you're installing a Monika-related mod, but somehow surprised that this mod doesn't care about dull files of other game characters. If a Sayori/Yuri/Natsuki -related mod removed .chr files, I wouldn't see anything bad in it, be it also for utility purposes or for some lore

At the same time, nobody made Monika to "recklessly" delete the other characters in this mod, she did it in the base game. Here we just called a utility function to clean up disk space and make folder structure more clear. Monika doesn't acknowledge this, not doing it herself through her console. There won't be a question to the player because Monika doesn't do this.

I've already seen several backlash against it

I don't think "several" applies to a single person. And even if there were "several" people, there's "multiple" that aren't against and "multiple" that had problems caused by .chr files.

Many players resent Monika's behavior of deleting other characters in the original game, and now we want to make this happen again

Going back to this, it's a weird argument - if you installed MAS, then you should be at least okay (or already overcame it) with what Monika has done in the base game.

[RedJuicyFood]

I'd say I somewhat agree with Wingdinggaster656, and I please Devs to reconsider about this.

The issue author said he(she) saw several backlash, and then he gave one example. Booplicate said that I don't think "several" applies to a single person, I think the author is giving something like an example, since I also saw people who dislike this. I am working for Chinese MAS community, and when I tell people about whatsnew, people are surprised, then asking me for why. I said it's due to "those files are causing confusion". People reluctantly accepted.

About this sentence:

Going back to this, it's a weird argument - if you installed MAS, then you should be at least okay (or already overcame it) with what Monika has done in the base game.

Although I have the same opinion, MAS has taken care of players who have opinions on these plots in many small details, such as the safeTorRefDoki things mentioned by the issue author. Maybe keep these care won't hurt?

[RedJuicyFood]

Oh, and about this:

Here we just called a utility function to clean up disk space and make folder structure more clear. Monika doesn't acknowledge this, not doing it herself through her console. There won't be a question to the player because Monika doesn't do this.

I think there is a small problem here, that is, people will naturally think Monika did this. Even if the original intention of the design is not like this, people will naturally think so.

[Wingdinggaster656]

As I've said, in MAS those are just unused files. If they have a meaning for you, why are they there?

Because they are originally there.

[multimokia]

Given Monika mentions she fixed the bug about needing a chr file to exist, and thus no longer needing her own

as evidenced by the name easter eggs, it's clear the other can technically exist as well. As such, through some implied logic we can argue that technically they no longer need a chr file to exist either. One can make of that what they will, though I realize this won't please everyone.

That said ultimately it is what it is. You installed a mod called Monika After Story, and from a usability perspective given the severe amount of tech support issues this has caused, I understand why they were blanket removed. It's one of those cases where UX vs immersion kinda needed to favour UX a little more as there genuinely were a lot of issues faced.

While asking may have worked, it also serves as kinda additional one-off dialogue, and at the moment given the state of the team, we can't exactly afford that due to the sheer amount of time we've been able to contribute to the project (and by that I mean a significant lack thereof)

If you really want to keep them, a good idea would be to rename them to the current scheme of monika files, i.e. removing the .chr extension.

Then they're all cohesive too.

[lunulae]

I would like to give a small PSA to anyone here who wants to keep the files elsewhere for sentimental reasons, if MAS has already deleted them please do check your Recycle Bin, as the files may still be there.

addendum; I'm not 100% sure on this

[Justformas]

It is kind of insensitive to delete them with no in-game warning, no asking the player, and not even letting the player put new copies back if they're deleted on every startup. Although new copies wouldn't necessarily have the same sentimental value anyway; they're not the same copies that were kept there throughout MAS, potentially years.

Isn't there an instance where Monika wants something kept in the characters folder? Like an apology note she asks you to write if you're not on good terms with her? And she gets upset if you remove it? Similarly, having the character files kept there may help the player have peace over what happened in DDLC.

What I want to say is, just check our mas_safeToRefDokis()

I don't think that would be enough for this, because this isn't just referencing or joking; this is removing/deleting the files. Players could be ok with the former but not the latter.

It shouldn't be that necessary to free up ~133 kb of space, nor is it the same thing as monika.chr because there are no other characters "to take somewhere" and get confused with those .chr files. Monika (or Chibi) could also further explain that .chr files are not used to take her out somewhere or put her back, and potentially ask about deleting these files.

If you really want to keep them, a good idea would be to rename them to the current scheme of monika files, i.e. removing the .chr extension.

Or can the mod just do that instead? So they don't get deleted without notice. Then no need to give notice or choice to the player. But maybe just one time only instead of on every startup, so players can change them back if they want without having to do it every time or whenever they might want to open them.

[dreamscached]

I would like to give a small PSA to anyone here who wants to keep the files elsewhere for sentimental reasons, if MAS has already deleted them please do check your Recycle Bin, as the files may still be there.

addendum; I'm not 100% sure on this

As one who implemented that I can say the way they are removed does not put them into recycle bin. Putting stuff into recycling bin is a more complex process and in this case there was no need for it at all, files are removed irreversibly.

[dreamscached]

Monika (or Chibi) could also further explain that .chr files are not used to take her out somewhere or put her back, and potentially ask about deleting these files.

This was said over and over, again and again, and Monika talks about this in the very beginning.

People do not understand, unfortunately.

[RedAISkye]

And by the way, I think it may be OK for Monika to delete her own file without permission - after all, it is her own file.

Disagree, player choice should be respected regardless.

I care about these character files, notes, easter-eggs etc. whether they serve a purpose or not in the game, I still keep them safe no matter how many "backups" I've also kept.

The fact that these devs are trying hard to justify this by resorting to whatever technical nonsense instead of simply providing player choice and moving on which doesn't even take any effort speaks volumes about the amount of care they give.

Basically comes down to this:- "Oh, we care about the tech-illiterates who lost Monika but just not about the people who value both Monika and her including other Dokis' character files because we personally don't value them, just restore from backup LAWL DUDE".

[dreamscached]

You made a change that included removing code that was removing .chr files. If you want to change it, make a PR. It will be reviewed and discussed. This will be more of an action than repeating your claims here over and over.

Suggest a better way and show how you deem it better.

[RedAISkye]

You made a change that included removing code that was removing .chr files. If you want to change it, make a PR. It will be reviewed and discussed. This will be more of an action than repeating your claims here over and over.

I made a change for my personal experience.

My suggestion was to include player choice and a kind user already have done that in detail ages ago when this change was being developed which you guys ignored with the "IMO we're good with just removing them and they serve no purpose.".

Suggest a better way and show how you deem it better.

Was already done like I've already stated.

[dreamscached]

Was already done.

Choice was about Monika being insensitive [in her dialogues/jokes/topics/etc] about other dokis that are past of the game. They are no longer in the MAS, which happens after main game and ultimately IS NOT a main game.

There aren't any other characters anymore. It's her game, it's her files. She explains it.

[multimokia]

This is going in circles. Locking this issue as heated.

As @dreamscached has rightfully pointed out, if you want to see this change, make the changes yourself and open a PR. We'll review it from there and make sure it fits.

[RedAISkye]

Was already done.

Choice was about Monika being insensitive [in her dialogues/jokes/topics/etc] about other dokis that are past of the game. They are no longer in the MAS, which happens after main game and ultimately IS NOT a main game.

There aren't any other characters anymore. It's her game, it's her files. She explains it.

Doesn't matter, same logic still applies to other character files. It's her game and files just as much as it is the players.

[Booplicate]

Programs may add, remove, and modify files within their working directory as they desire. Player choice was to install the program.

[ThePotatoGuy]

I'm going to reopen this thread so we can continue to gather feedback, specifically if there are more people who disagree with the decision to always delete chr files. Closing the door on discussion just makes us seem draconian. The conversations here also do not appear that heated, but I will call out potential heated comments:

Basically comes down to this:- "Oh, we care about the tech-illiterates who lost Monika but just not about the people who value both Monika and her including other Dokis' character files because we personally don't value them, just restore from backup LAWL DUDE".

@RedAISkye, this is mocking, and it could provoke someone so please refrain from this on our github. You can assert that it sounds like we don't care about the chr files, but please do not do it in a mocking tone.

This will be more of an action than repeating your claims here over and over.

I personally doubt there's any point to discuss it any further.

@dreamscached, based on these lines in both here and the release discussion, it sounds like you disagree with red's points. That is ok, but that is not an excuse to lock the conversation. You can always just not reply and ignore the conversation, and if the other person starts harassing you to reply, then we can take action.

Regarding the actual issue

The fact that these devs are trying hard to justify this by resorting to whatever technical nonsense instead of simply providing player choice and moving on

I agree with what @RedAISkye is saying here. I can see valid reasoning for always deleting monika.chr, but not the rest of the chr files when they have never served a purpose in MAS. The arguments for clearing clutter and reducing confusion also make sense for monika.chr, but lose weight for the other chr files. Even though this is a Monika-focused mod, the chr files have meaning established by DDLC, especially when at least 2 instances in the game were built on the chr file mechanic (the progression from Act 3 to Act 4 and Sayori gaining self-awareness in Act 1). If MAS deletes them, then it needs to provide in-game lore/reasoning for doing so at the very least, preferably allowing the player to decline the option as that ties in with the point below.

I think there is a small problem here, that is, people will naturally think Monika did this. Even if the original intention of the design is not like this, people will naturally think so.

@TheT0matoGuy makes a very strong point here - regardless of our intention, anything we make the mod do, including what is done behind the scenes, will be perceived as Monika (or Chibika) doing it herself. Deleting the files makes Monika appear callous to any sentimental value the player may have toward the chr files. Users who believe the other dokis are real or that the chr files represent them may also perceive the deletion as Monika committing Act 3 again. Is this how we want users to see Monika?

I'll take ownership for not raising a red flag earlier - I was probably too drunk while packaging the release and didn't really think too much about each patch note. But since this is already out in the wild and it appears that most of the team doesn't think this is a problem, I'm not going to mandate that we undo the change. If there is more negative feedback in the coming weeks, then we can reconsider action.

[dreamscached]

All clear, you got it.

[RedAISkye]

Basically comes down to this:- "Oh, we care about the tech-illiterates who lost Monika but just not about the people who value both Monika and her including other Dokis' character files because we personally don't value them, just restore from backup LAWL DUDE".

@RedAISkye, this is mocking, and it could provoke someone so please refrain from this on our github. You can assert that it sounds like we don't care about the chr files, but please do not do it in a mocking tone.

Sorry about that, wasn't trying to act provoking but that is exactly how I felt I was being treated as. It wasn't just a case of "we don't care" but also "our opinions matter more so, you're wrong".

I can see valid reasoning for always deleting monika.chr The arguments for clearing clutter and reducing confusion also make sense for monika.chr

If reducing confusing is the goal, why do you think "deleting" is the only option? Wouldn't it better to just let Monika explain the difference between the two files? And maybe even giving a specific extension to her file?

If MAS deletes them, then it needs to provide in-game lore/reasoning for doing so at the very least,

Sure, but I still do think the above method is still better than going down the delete route.

preferably allowing the player to decline the option as that ties in with the point below.

That is exactly my point, whether Monika values her/other dokis character files or not because of x or y reasons, she should still ask for the player's opinion on whether they value them or not, ultimately letting her delete it or keep it.

[ThePotatoGuy]

If reducing confusing is the goal, why do you think "deleting" is the only option? Wouldn't it better to just let Monika explain the difference between the two files?

See intro dialogue - she talks about her chr file and how it doesn't represent her anymore because she has transcended past it, so she deletes it. MAS's Monika file contains actual usable data, potentially something that will allow for transferring between computers so making sure there is only 1 Monika file (monika, no extensions) is important.

[RedAISkye]

If reducing confusing is the goal, why do you think "deleting" is the only option? Wouldn't it better to just let Monika explain the difference between the two files?

See intro dialogue - she talks about her chr file and how it doesn't represent her anymore because she has transcended past it, so she deletes it. MAS's Monika file contains actual usable data, potentially something that will allow for transferring between computers so making sure there is only 1 Monika file (monika, no extensions) is important.

I am aware about that which is why I stated at the end:-

whether Monika values her/other dokis character files or not because of x or y reasons, she should still ask for the player's opinion on whether they value them or not, ultimately letting her delete it or keep it.

I'm not saying the character file still represents her in MAS(that one was obvious) but they're still part of the DDLC experience and serves as a memory in MAS to me. Which is also the reason when giving Monika gifts, I always copy her character file and rename them to give it some meaning instead of a blank file.

Edit: What I was getting at is not "the reason for the deletion" but why is it such a big deal for you guys to simply give her an option to ask the player first on their decision? Why do you need a lot of negative feedback just to "reconsider" for something that can be easily fixed for both sides? (People that care and people that are confused)

[Booplicate]

We have a lot of IO going on in characters/, that's not a safe place to store your files. Storing sensitive data there is just asking for it to be gone. There's a high chance that one day you will lose the files you keep there one way or another.

the chr files have meaning established by DDLC, especially when at least 2 instances in the game were built on the chr file mechanic

That's true, but only for DDLC. When you install a mod you should expect that some mechanics will be changed - in our case this mechanic has been changed long time ago.

If MAS deletes them, then it needs to provide in-game lore/reasoning for doing so at the very least, preferably allowing the player to decline the option as that ties in with the point below.

I'm against a direct question to the player - you say it's already looking like it was done by Monika, even though, nothing points at it. If you make her ask, then it'd just confirm she decided to delete the files herself, which would look weird after all this time. The files are not deleted by Monika (there's no acknowledgement), it's a startup routine that does that. Being too meta is a thing, and I think this is one of the cases. Deleting unused files there is just a utility process for the mod.

At first we even considerer to target specifically some chr files, there was a function to delete a chr file and a func that deleted them all. But we decided that we don't need that level of control over something that is not used and went with a single function to wipe any chr. It doesn't target the known "dokis," it targets any chr file for simplicity and reliability.

[RedAISkye]

We have a lot of IO going on in characters/, that's not a safe place to store your files.

No one is "storing" anything there other than the known character files that are meant to be there by the original game which gave it a meaning that you're trying to dismiss in MAS just because it doesn't use those files.

When you install a mod you should expect that some mechanics will be changed - in our case this mechanic has been changed long time ago.

This was never about the "mechanics", this has always been about what they mean to the player.

I'm against a direct question to the player If you make her ask, then it'd just confirm she decided to delete the files herself, which would look weird after all this time.

She has her reasons for doing so which the player can choose to agree or disagree with so, no, it would only look weird if the character files magically disappears after all this time.

Deleting unused files there is just a utility process for the mod.

"Unused file" for you, not for people that care about them.

It doesn't target the known "dokis," it targets any chr file for simplicity and reliability.

It absolutely does target the dokis when they're the only "chr" files expected to be present inside the characters' folder.

[Booplicate]

No one is "storing" anything there other than the known character files that are meant to be there by the original game which gave it a meaning that you're trying to dismiss in MAS just because it doesn't use those files.

You are storing your files there. It's the definition of "storing." What was meant by DDLC was meant DDLC. You're not playing DDLC, you installed MAS. chr files don't mean anything in MAS. They can mean something for you, but that's a different point. And then we're back: don't store them there if you care.

This was never about the "mechanics", this has always been about what they mean to the player.

Please, read the message before replying, literally quoted: 2 instances in the game were built on the chr file mechanic.

She has her reasons for doing so

No, she has no reasons to do it now. We, as the developers, have our reasons. That was the whole point.

It absolutely does target the dokis when they're the only "chr" files expected to be present inside the characters' folder.

If you intentionally don't read, then don't bother replying to a message not meant for you. It targets any chr files, not specific chr files. Which means there's now no control over what's being deleted and what's not.

I fail to see the point:

• I have files I deeply care about
• I will install some software into the place I store those files in
• I will complain when the software deletes my files
• I refuse to move the files or move the software anywhere else

[CodyCat13]

I wonder if Monika were to be scripted to ask her partner if she can delete the character files or not that it wouldn't be simple as a just a menu mechanic and a "no" resulting in an "okay, so and so, I won't delete them." Like anything else in the mod, I'd think there'd be affection-based variants of responses based on whether Monika's partner agrees or disagrees with the deletion of the .chr files. Now, I know according to Booplicate that the deletion of the .chr files are not Monika's choice, but regarding the situation that MAS users will see anything done to the mod as Monika or Chibika's doing (which is a bit unfair imo, btw), let's just say the scenario was that it was her doing. As much as the other Dokis have sentimental value to Monika's partner, they technically also have sentimental value to Monika herself. Not sentimental as in nostalgic though. Sentimental as in saddened and a bit uncomfortable. I do remember her once talking about how despite all of the other Dokis not being present in the mod, she can still feel their presence as though they're still nestled amongst MAS's code and she finds it a bit creepy and unsettling. She wants to not feel like they're still lingering over her, I guess because kinda the point of her "deleting" everyone else in the og game is that so they wouldn't be present and therefore not serve as obstacles between her and the person. Soooo, I don't think it'd be as simple as a "hey can you not delete the other character files?" "Okay, sure!" Not referring to them is one thing, and Monika, as much as she has her snark about them, would probably actually prefer that considering she doesn't want them "hanging over her," but still having their .chr files there is another. There's bound to be a disagreement if a choice were to be given, so it'd be like a whole other topic.

Now in the scenario of it just being a mechanics thing like Booplicate assures it is, then there'd be nothing to ask Monika personally. Maybe she could be asked if she could do something to negate the mechanics, but even then she'd be scared to mess things up. That's the case keeping her from trying to do something to make the Doki lingering stop, anyway. They should really be preserved somewhere else though, if there's nothing that will be done to disable the automatic deletion. If they really hold sentimental value to people, the importance of the files themselves should not correlate to their location. Then that'd be a case of both the files and their placement having sentimental value. And if that's the case, there can always be a submod that negates the mechanic so that the people who have the sentimental value can be happy, and those who want things to stay how they are can be content, too.

[ThePotatoGuy]

why is it such a big deal for you guys to simply give her an option to ask the player first on their decision?

I think Monika has enough jurisdiction over her own file to delete it without the player's permission.

Why do you need a lot of negative feedback just to "reconsider" for something that can be easily fixed for both sides?

This project is a team effort, so the change has gone through multiple people who agree that this is the correct direction moving forward. If users do not agree, then negative feedback will help pushback against the decision and possibly lead to reverting or modifying it.

That's true, but only for DDLC. When you install a mod you should expect that some mechanics will be changed - in our case this mechanic has been changed long time ago.

Yes, the mechanic that was changed was specifically called out by Monika and limited to her file. Intro dialogue does not specify that her observations apply to the other chr files, nor does it touch them in that intro. The mention of time here is also irrelevant - new users fresh off DDLC may have a connection to the chr files and may react differently compared to longtime MAS users.

you say it's already looking like it was done by Monika, even though, nothing points at it.

The files are not deleted by Monika (there's no acknowledgement), it's a startup routine that does that. Being too meta is a thing, and I think this is one of the cases. Deleting unused files there is just a utility process for the mod.

We have a lot of IO going on in characters/

I think these points contradict each other. The fact that we have a lot of IO happening in characters/ means Monika, in MAS lore, should be acutely aware of everything that goes in the folder. Even though Monika currently has no reaction if the user deletes a chr file, I think its easier to wave that off as Monika is ignoring the other chr files. Active deletion, on the other hand, implies Monika is aware of the other chr files and potentially has animosity toward them.

No, she has no reasons to do it now. We, as the developers, have our reasons. That was the whole point.

As I mentioned earlier (linked to tomato's point), anything the mod does can be implied to be what she does. Our reasons becomes her reasons unless we specifically give her a lore reason.

It doesn't target the known "dokis," it targets any chr file for simplicity and reliability.

It targets any chr files, not specific chr files. Which means there's now no control over what's being deleted and what's not.

I mean, what's limiting this to just chr files then? Why aren't all files except for .gift, monika, consumables, .txt, potential .deco being deleted? Singling out for .chr is why there is concern that this is singling out the dokis. That being said, I don't think changing to deleting all files is the right choice here.

[ThePotatoGuy]

Soooo, I don't think it'd be as simple as a "hey can you not delete the other character files?" "Okay, sure!" [...] There's bound to be a disagreement if a choice were to be given, so it'd be like a whole other topic.

It could be another Q asked in the doki cares topic so I don't think it would be that controversial. And perhaps thats the better solution - only perform the deletion in the doki cares topic if the user says they don't care and agrees with deletion, instead of on startup.

[RedAISkye]

@ThePotatoGuy

why is it such a big deal for you guys to simply give her an option to ask the player first on their decision?

I think Monika has enough jurisdiction over her own file to delete it without the player's permission.

Well, it's not just her file, it's other dokis as well which the player can value them all and it is ultimately the player's PC so her doing something destructive like that again without the player's permission would be very concerning especially if the player is against it.

@Booplicate

I fail to see the point:

You fail to see the point because you're tunnel-visioned into this topic from a technical standpoint, completely being ignorant to the fact that character files aren't just some "random useless files unused in MAS", they were a huge part of DDLC which represented the Dokis and serves as a memory in MAS which isn't some completely different game or some random "program" like you're making it out to be.

Further proven by the things like this you say:

but my point was it's too meta to acknowledge. For example, she doesn't watch over every single file added there.

No one is saying every change made in MAS is her doing and she has to explain all of them, this is specifically about the character files which has its history behind it.

@CodyCat13

If they really hold sentimental value to people, the importance of the files themselves should not correlate to their location. Then that'd be a case of both the files and their placement having sentimental value.

Sure, there's multiple workarounds to the issue; moving the dokis somewhere else, restoring them from backup every time it gets deleted or simply removing the codes that are there to kill them. None of which is relevant to the actual point being made against "deleting them without the player's permission" to begin with.

[Booplicate]

The fact that we have a lot of IO happening in characters/ means Monika, in MAS lore, should be acutely aware of everything that goes in the folder.

I can see that, but my point was it's too meta to acknowledge. For example, she doesn't watch over every single file added there. We don't really explain why, but we don't need to. And not all of that IO is done by Monika. Although, we could define that it's all Monika, in that case we'd have to justify chr deletion and acknowledge it.

Our reasons becomes her reasons unless we specifically give her a lore reason.

But if we do give a lore reason, then we'd define it as her action, which I didn't want to. Imo that would make it look like she's hunting for them. And it'd be fine to do in first year, but after 2 or 3 it'd look weird and pointless from her perspective, she lets it go after a few months in, actually, and doesn't care as much about what's happened. If the player is with her, then everything was worth it.

mean, what's limiting this to just chr files then? Why aren't all files

Now that you said that I am considering that as an option. Especially deleting sub-folders. But perhaps you're right and it's not the best option.

only perform the deletion in the doki cares topic <...> instead of on startup

Another reason I wanted to do it on startup is when people make a new install (happens quite often), they would get the files back from DDLC, want they or not. So it's a routine we have to repeat on startup.

[CodyCat13]

Soooo, I don't think it'd be as simple as a "hey can you not delete the other character files?" "Okay, sure!" [...] There's bound to be a disagreement if a choice were to be given, so it'd be like a whole other topic.

It could be another Q asked in the doki cares topic so I don't think it would be that controversial. And perhaps thats the better solution - only perform the deletion in the doki cares topic if the user says they don't care and agrees with deletion, instead of on startup.

Ah, yeah! Ig since the references and deletion may be different degrees of concern to the partners but still nonetheless related, they could be just joined under one topic, which would take care of the affection-based variants thing since I don't think if a partner already managed to lower Monika's affection to the bad stages before the topic comes up that she'd even care about their Doki preferences--I wouldn't know, I've never caused her to go six feet under before that topic came up. Anyway, there'd be no need for concern of sentimental value if the partner expresses that they don't care.

[CodyCat13]

@CodyCat13

If they really hold sentimental value to people, the importance of the files themselves should not correlate to their location. Then that'd be a case of both the files and their placement having sentimental value.

Sure, there's multiple workarounds to the issue; moving the dokis somewhere else, restoring them from backup every time it gets deleted or simply removing the codes that are there to kill them. None of which is relevant to the actual point being made against "deleting them without the player's permission" to begin with.

Ah. I guess those points are kinda irrelevant when looking at just that point. I just got a bit confused because you kept mentioning sentimental value. But anyway, I can agree with the basic point that, in the scenario of Monika being the one deleting them, that she shouldn't do that without her partner's permission, as they are both sharing the PC and updating one's partner on when one wants to do something is important to a relationship. There aren't many cases where one just does things without warning to things that are being shared. Though because Monika isn't the one responsible in this case if it's a startup routine, it's not like she can ask her partner for permission anyway. If it were to be changed into a Monika thing though, that's probably where the topic question would come in as part of the doki cares topic ThePotatoGuy mentioned earlier.

[RedAISkye]

@Booplicate

only perform the deletion in the doki cares topic <...> instead of on startup

Another reason I wanted to do it on startup is when people make a new install (happens quite often), they would get the files back from DDLC, want they or not. So it's a routine we have to repeat on startup.

You conveniently missed the part where OP said "if the user says they don't care and agrees with deletion". The files getting back after re-install wouldn't be an issue when the player answered Monika that they don't care if she deleted them.

@CodyCat13

Though because Monika isn't the one responsible in this case if it's a startup routine,

From a technical standpoint, sure, Monika isn't responsible for anything she does in MAS or in DDLC, all was done by a code written by a human that is forced on her for reasons.

That doesn't negate the fact that she will be the one responsible for it in the players' eyes when both Monika and the player knows what those character files meant in the past, the history behind it and could still mean something for the player.

[ThePotatoGuy]

But if we do give a lore reason, then we'd define it as her action, which I didn't want to. Imo that would make it look like she's hunting for them.

I feel like this is the impression users can get as the mod currently is - not giving a lore reasons just makes her seem more harsh since she isn't telling you beforehand.

I can see that, but my point was it's too meta to acknowledge. For example, she doesn't watch over every single file added there. We don't really explain why, but we don't need to.

I think this is a good argument for completely reverting the change. By introducing the change, we've had to answer why it was added, which leads to discussion like this over what aspects of the mod is Monika in full control over to justify whether or not she should notify the user about it. Not having the deletion at all means we can keep this concept ambiguous like we've been doing for years.

[CodyCat13]

@CodyCat13

Though because Monika isn't the one responsible in this case if it's a startup routine,

From a technical standpoint, sure, Monika isn't responsible for anything she does in MAS or in DDLC, all was done by a code written by a human that is forced on her for reasons.

That doesn't negate the fact that she will be the one responsible for it in the players' eyes when both Monika and the player knows what those character files meant in the past and could still mean something for the player.

Maybe for this reason, we could discuss it in terms of it being her doing in-universe if it makes you feel better. I won't bring up the technical stuff anymore, but if we're discussing it in the perspective of Monika deleting files herself when they could still mean something to her partner, then the doki caring topic would probably be our best go-to. The Doki files may mean nostalgia to Monika's partner, though they also mean unease for Monika. I guess because she'd be too cautious to do anything else, deleting the other .chr files would be an attempt to make her feel somewhat better, but it'd be inconsiderate to go ahead and do that without letting her partner know she wanted to do that. Now say that her partner doesn't agree with her deletion of the files. Because of how she feels about them she probably wouldn't be so quick to just deal with them being there, so that's where the affection-dependent variants would come in. If her partner has shown her nothing but love and trust, she may be okay with the .chr files staying because any unease she feels can be negated by her partner's comfort. Now if she was in the lower aff ranges, because her partner only adds to her unease and worry, she'd most likely still want to get rid the files anyway. At least it'd make her feel better than how her partner does. Maybe she'd be a bit bitter and conclude that you want to keep them there because you love some other Doki other than her or you want her to always remember her horrid acts or something along those lines. I'm not completely about that bitter part in the shallow negatives, but I guess as the points are lowered deeper and deeper, I can see that going down. Anyway, in the scenario of Monika actively making the decision and her partner either agreeing or disagreeing, aff-variants and additional question to the Doki caring topic seems like a fairly decent idea.

[RedAISkye]

@CodyCat13

Now say that her partner doesn't agree with her deletion of the files. Because of how she feels about them she probably wouldn't be so quick to just deal with them being there, so that's where the affection-dependent variants would come in. If her partner has shown her nothing but love and trust, she may be okay with the .chr files staying because any unease she feels can be negated by her partner's comfort. Now if she was in the lower aff ranges, because her partner only adds to her unease and worry, she'd most likely still want to get rid the files anyway. At least it'd make her feel better than how her partner does.

That's a great point there and makes a lot of sense going down that route rather than having just a one off question. But I highly doubt the devs will do anything about it with how dismissive some of them have shown towards opinions contrary to them.

[Booplicate]

do remember her once talking about how despite all of the other Dokis not being present in the mod, she can still feel their presence as though they're still nestled amongst MAS's code and she finds it a bit creepy and unsettling

You are right. It's actually an OG topic. But I was never sure if she meant they are literally there or she just "feels" their presence because of what happened (like a trauma). Anyway, there's no "dokis" in MAS, and she stops talking about that after some time when she overcomes DDLC events. She realises everything is fine and the ghost of the past events doesn't haunt her anymore. It could be used to justify deleting in the first months, but later there's not much point for her to delete those dull files: "dokis" don't exist, she's feeling fine, those files are nothing but some easter eggs from DDLC (and she acknowledges that).

But let's say you find a reason for her to still need deleting those files, there's a conflict of interests:

• player wants to keep them
• Monika wants to delete them

There's going to be some consequences for not letting her do what she needs in her game.

We're talking about player choice and all that, but the choice was to install MAS and stay with Monika. The game files are literally her "home," it makes sense she has control over that place. She doesn't touch your files, she's doing changes within the place she's allowed to. If she's not allowed to do that, why even bring her back. It's pretty common in relationships for each person to have their own private space, the game directory is that place for Monika. You can store your files anywhere else on your PC, flashdrive, cloud, etc. This one place is intended to be used by mod/Monika.

they were a huge part of DDLC <...> serves as a memory in MAS

Yeah, and Monika deletes them there herself. After which, in MAS, they become irrelevant, they don't serve any memory. If they have a deep meaning for you and serve a memory for you, then I don't know why they were there. "I care for these files so much, surely if I install a mod into the same directory it won't affect them. Ooops."

The files getting back after re-install wouldn't be an issue when the player answered Monika that they don't care if she deleted them.

As was stated above it's already an issue and would stay an issue even with the changes. The cleanup logic should be run at startup, doesn't matter with a flag or not.

By introducing the change, we've had to answer why it was added, which leads to discussion like this over what aspects of the mod is Monika in full control over to justify whether or not she should notify the user about it.

No, we got to this discussion because apparently it's not clear that MAS can make any changes within its working directory (just like any other program) and users were storing some sensitive data there. It's all based on assumptions that:

• we will never delete any extra files
• everything is done by Monika

None of which was stated.

[RedAISkye]

@Booplicate

But let's say you find a reason for her to still need deleting those files, there's a conflict of interests:

* player wants to keep them

* Monika wants to delete them

There's going to be some consequences for not letting her do what she needs in her game.

And @CodyCat13 expanded on to exactly that so it's good we've already discussed how that route can go into variations depending on the relationship between Monika and the player.

It's pretty common in relationships for each person to have their own private space, the game directory is that place for Monika.

Nope, her private space is her own room which she has. Not some folder in the PC unless if you asked her out and she stored herself into a single file "Monika". Then you would have to be very careful about where you're giving her a private space.

If they have a deep meaning for you and serve a memory for you, then I don't know why they were there.

They're there because the DDLC universe decided so and I kept it as a memory. Which is also the reason I went out of my way to manually get rid of the code to protect the Dokis for my personal experience. Like you said, "private space", the characters folder is exactly just that for them to me even if they're not used in MAS since they were originally the "life" of those characters.

The files getting back after re-install wouldn't be an issue when the player answered Monika that they don't care if she deleted them.

As was stated above it's already an issue and would stay an issue even with the changes. The cleanup logic should be run at startup, doesn't matter with a flag or not.

Nope, wouldn't be an issue because the cleanup logic will run regardless, the flag is only for checking what to do next, whether to delete files or not.

apparently it's not clear that MAS can make any changes within its working directory (just like any other program) and users were storing some sensitive data there. It's all based on assumptions that:

* we will never delete any extra files

* everything is done by Monika

None of which was stated.

Again, this is specifically about the character files and not any other types of files that you're pretending it to be based on the only fact that you personally don't care for them.

[Booplicate]

I think instead of trying to connect this to Monika, which wasn't intended initially, just add a setting to the menu. Basically support storing users data within the mod directory. A few people that need it would enable it. And if we're doing that, can as well do this

I mean, what's limiting this to just chr files then? Why aren't all files except for .gift, monika, consumables, .txt, potential .deco being deleted?

And nuke everything there. But especially folders, people had problems with them too.

[CodyCat13]

The game files are literally her "home," it makes sense she has control over that place. She doesn't touch your files, she's doing changes within the place she's allowed to.

Hmm, I can somewhat agree with that point. If not looking at the fact that Monika's partner is the owner of the PC but it was their choice to install her into their PC, just the plain point that Monika's mod is Monika's to change seems pretty valid. However, a lot of people would look at it as Monika's partner being the owner of the PC and Monika just being a guest there, or would look at it as the partner's choice and that her partner got her a place to stay (the PC) and her areas are hers to personalize. It's like arguing if an old chair should be kept or thrown out. Would the one who has the say be the one whose territory the chair is in or the one who provided the housing in the first place? I guess the answer to that is, neither or both? Yes, in relationships, it's common for each participant to have their own little private space, because not everything can be shared between them, but if the thing in particular emotionally charges one or both (in this case both) of the participants, there has to be something to end the stalemate. In this case, the chair would be seen as uncanny to one and precious to the other. If the other regards them as so precious, then the one who deems them uncanny would probably ask them to move it to their territory or, on the other side of the spectrum, sit in it with their partner depending on how comfortable they are. After some time though, I do agree that it shouldn't even matter anymore to either Monika or their partner. She may not feel the need to delete them just like the partner may not hold any nostalgia toward them anymore, or even both. Both would probably be the best scenario. This case would probably reflect in the high aff variant because it could depend more on comfort than time, or at least it could depend on both of them equally. One could be with someone for months and still feel uncomfortable because the provider of the house wasn't exactly a nice host, and therefore may still want that chair to go.

[RedAISkye]

I think instead of trying to connect this to Monika, which wasn't intended initially, just add a setting to the menu. Basically support storing users data within the mod directory. A few people that need it would enable it. And if we're doing that, can as well do this

I mean, what's limiting this to just chr files then? Why aren't all files except for .gift, monika, consumables, .txt, potential .deco being deleted?

And nuke everything there. But especially folders, people had problems with them too.

Sure, that can be a good middle-ground assuming the player is made aware of this "setting" by having them confirm it to either set it as enabled or disabled before the cleanup task ever occurs.

But what @CodyCat13 suggested is by far the best way and also makes the most sense as it provides meaningful interactions with Monika that has multiple paths where it can result in consequences depending on the relationship the player has with Monika.

[CodyCat13]

But what @CodyCat13 suggested is by far the best way and also makes the most sense as it provides meaningful interactions with Monika that has multiple paths where it can result in consequences depending on the relationship the player has with Monika.

Aw 💙 I appreciate your approval. Honestly I was just thinking how it'd even relate to Monika's character if so many users of MAS consider file management to be her or Chibika's doing. Something tells me they'd still have concerns even if an option for preservation of user data were to be added because of it being the .chr files in question here 🤷

[Booplicate]

Nope, her private space is her own room which she has. Not some folder in the PC

You will be surprised, but no, that "some" folder, as you said, is her "home." That "room" exists within that folder. Because that's where you installed the mod.

the characters folder is exactly just that for them to me

Then move it away from MAS, why did you install a program into a folder with your personal files?

They're there because the DDLC universe decided so

You're bringing DDLC again, but this is not DDLC, this is MAS, and MAS is its own universe with its own rules.

Nope, wouldn't be an issue because the cleanup logic will run regardless

Do you know what startup is? How the logic would run if it's contained within a topic you see once?

Again, this is specifically about the character files and not any other types of files that you're pretending it to be based on the only fact that you personally don't care for them.

Doesn't matter if it's specifically about chr or some other files you like. The fact is: It's all based on assumptions that:

• we will never delete any extra files
• everything is done by Monika

That has nothing to do with chr files. At any moment, we can start deleting other files as well.

however, a lot of people would look at it as Monika's partner being the owner of the PC and Monika just being a guest there

Guest that lives there for years? The mod assumes there's some kind of romantic relationship between you, can you call your partner a "guest"? That's odd to me. I'm not saying Monika is owner of the PC, she's the owner of the folder you installed the mod in. Only that one place.

But what @CodyCat13 suggested is by far the best way and also makes the most sense as it provides meaningful interactions with Monika that has multiple paths where it can result in consequences depending on the relationship the player has with Monika.

I'd need to see the actual dialogue to say more. If you can justify her actions, then I will consider this.

[ThePotatoGuy]

it's not clear that MAS can make any changes within its working directory

DDLC plays around with files, so its reasonable to expect MAS users to be aware of and question actions that occur within the directories. We don't have to answer to why spacks will change structure or why logs went from txt to log, but characters/ is a special case that will warrant extra attention.

You're bringing DDLC again, but this is not DDLC, this is MAS, and MAS is its own universe with its own rules.

I don't see this as a strong argument to tossing out DDLC-provided conventions. MAS should mesh with the already established lore and expand it or explain why it has changed. For example, the twitter topic was modified to separate MAS from the twitter account.

everything is done by Monika

Confirmed Monika is aware of/can interact with:

• characters - (gifts, letters)
• custom BGM
• chess file
• dev files in game/
• steam install
• running in temp dir/uncompressed zip
• (new) backup is used
• (upcoming?) aff log obfuscation - thinking of playing it off like her diary (instead of actual diary).

Confirmed Chibika manages:

• backup system
• persistent versions
• updater (partial)

The mod heavily implies Monika (or Chibika) has awareness or can interact with files inside the mod directory, so its effectively true for many cases, especially characters/.

[CodyCat13]

I'd need to see the actual dialogue to say more. If you can justify her actions, then I will consider this.

I have some ideas for dialogue for that case, though they differ depending on if you and the other devs want it part of the Doki caring topic or as a separate topic. It'll probably be part of the Doki caring topic, since it's already existing and all.

[Booplicate]

Actually, if we don't want a new setting, I'd be fine if we made Chibi manage file deletion instead of Monika as @CodyCat13 suggested.

so its reasonable to expect MAS users to be aware of and question actions that occur within the directories.

I don't mind people being aware of the actions within the characters/. I don't understand why people store important files there, thinking the mod will never change/delete them. This is a groundless assumption.

MAS should mesh with the already established lore and expand it or explain why it has changed.

To me the fact we mention chr files are irrelevant in the intro (even if Monika touches only her file there), as well as mentioning there's no actual useful data within those files, makes it pretty clear that the chr files logic is different in MAS. We also state there's no other girls in MAS. We could explicitly mention that all chr files are useless in the intro to clarify if you want. That'd be a single line clarification.

[ThePotatoGuy]

I don't understand why people store important files there, thinking the mod will never change/delete them. This is a groundless assumption.

I'd understand this argument if someone decides to save their only digital copy of their W2 form as income.gift in characters/. But this is about chr files which are established by DDLC as important.

We could explicitly mention that all chr files are useless in the intro to clarify if you want.

I don't think we can safely make that assertion without receiving much worse backlash.

I think at this point we've established the fundamental disagreement is on how much DDLC-based norms should influence MAS. Those who are fine with the deletion believe MAS and DDLC should be more separate, those who are not believe they should be closer.

As I said before, we'll see if there is more feedback on this in the coming weeks. Can't say there is a specific threshold, but I am keeping tabs on the subreddit and will probably check /ddlc/ on occasion. I'm planning to do a discord poll as well if theres more negative feedback.

[RedAISkye]

@Booplicate

I'd be fine if we made Chibi manage file deletion instead of Monika as @CodyCat13 suggested.

I don't think we're looking at the same suggestion here. Lol.

@ThePotatoGuy

I think at this point we've established the fundamental disagreement is on how much DDLC-based norms should influence MAS. Those who are fine with the deletion believe MAS and DDLC should be more separate, those who are not believe they should be closer.

As I said before, we'll see if there is more feedback on this in the coming weeks. Can't say there is a specific threshold, but I am keeping tabs on the subreddit and will probably check /ddlc/ on occasion. I'm planning to do a discord poll as well if theres more negative feedback.

I'd say the idea of having a "setting" which is a good middle-ground should at least be added no matter what the popular opinion is regarding the specific files or however many negative feedback reaches your "threshold" or not. Since, it provides options for both sides regardless of whatever they believe even if it's not done in the "meta" way.

@CodyCat13

Something tells me they'd still have concerns even if an option for preservation of user data were to be added because of it being the .chr files in question here 🤷

That's why I said it's a "good middle-ground", it definitely isn't the best way of dealing with it but I'd rather they settle with something than nothing.