bSI-InfraRoom / IFC-Specification

IfcDoc baseline to produce the documentation
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[IFC Tunnel] [Geotechnics] Uncertainty modeling #421

Open larswik opened 2 years ago

larswik commented 2 years ago

Input from geotech team:

image

galina-p-tuwien commented 2 years ago

After the meeting on 30th of May, 2022, we determined that there are at least two different ways to assign colour to geometry (as additional information carrier):

galina-p-tuwien commented 2 years ago

For the definition of uncertainty values, we could use the (currently deprecated) complex property or a list / table propery:

UncertaintyValue_Angle_V1 UncertaintyValue_Angle_V2 UncertaintyValue_Angle_V3

UncertaintyValue_Enum

galina-p-tuwien commented 2 years ago

Additionally, also at the meeting on 30th of May, 2022, we discussed the following:

Airy59 commented 1 year ago

About the suggestion to use complex properties : why were these deprecated in the first place?

larswik commented 1 year ago

About the suggestion to use complex properties : why were these deprecated in the first place?

From what I can see here in the official documentation (IfcComplexProperty), it has not been deprecated yet. There is a GitHub issue concerning "NextGen", Issue, which obviously has no resolution yet. However, others (@SergejMuhic ?) might know more. From my personal point of view, the concept of complex properties can be quite useful in many cases (e.g. one suggested above which captures "Uncertainty interval" in a "by-value fashion"), similar to the "struct" concept available in some programming languages. However, the issue mentioned above, seems to indicate that the recursive nature of the IfcComplexProperty might not be well supported in current software?

Airy59 commented 1 year ago

Talking about usage - geometries for instance are specified with tolerances, because things embodying the geometry may get deformed or wear down in the course of their lifetime. Measurements will be performed to see if things need repair or replacement. Actual things will be measured, and measures come with uncertainties. The entity in charge of maintenance needs to decide whether the (uncertain) measurement matches the (toleranced) nominal or acceptable value. The choice between complex type and property set representation of both tolerances or uncertainties also depends on whether property sets may be nested (contain other property sets). Say, the property set "observed length, height, width" with each value of complex type "Length range", possibly time-stamped (with date of measurement), to be matched with the property set "specified length, height, width", possibly versioned (with maintenance manual version).

I think too that complex types and Psets can carry the same semantics.

Are nested Psets feasible and acceptable in IFC?

Then, there would be remaining questions (about computing efficiency, ease of transformation and implementation...) that seem platform-specific to me, so I pass.

galina-p-tuwien commented 1 year ago

These are several examples of an uncertainty property set and how it could possibly describe uncertainty in other property sets attached to the same entity. Do you consider this a feasible solution?

grafik grafik grafik

And here is a complete example of uncertainty associated with a borehole interval:

grafik grafik

galina-p-tuwien commented 1 year ago

Additionally, we need an entity describing uncertainty anywhere, as in the example below. These are uncertainties not associated with a particular model element or chainage and can be situated literally anywhere. We would need an object to be able to attach the information and location to. Could this generic uncertainty entity be included?

grafik

Airy59 commented 1 year ago

Indeed, we need that. The world is not digital and most IT experts sometimes think about errors, but tend to forget about uncertainties that are essential to real-world engineering, eg. mechanical engineering. One of the many use cases is track layout and track maintenance, incl. predictive maintenance.

Airy Magnien

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De : @.> Envoyé le :jeudi 26 janvier 2023 07:41 À : @.> Cc : Airy @.>; @.> Objet :Re: [bSI-InfraRoom/IFC-Specification] [IFC Tunnel] [Geotechnics] Uncertainty modeling (Issue #421)

Additionally, we need an entity describing uncertainty anywhere, as in the example below. These are uncertainties not associated with a particular model element or chainage and can be situated literally anywhere. We would need an object to be able to attach the information and location to. Could this generic uncertainty entity be included?

[grafik]https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fuser-images.githubusercontent.com%2F41187423%2F214773157-b40fc18d-88b6-4b97-992d-b80e2062239d.png&data=05%7C01%7C%7Ce73f56c2353941f3ff6d08daff68635b%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638103121043743853%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Tad%2FOI5%2BaFYJt0SobfGA7xl6ZH8gUgxUPuj8TntlaGo%3D&reserved=0

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larswik commented 1 year ago

Additionally, we need an entity describing uncertainty anywhere, as in the example below. These are uncertainties not associated with a particular model element or chainage and can be situated literally anywhere. We would need an object to be able to attach the information and location to. Could this generic uncertainty entity be included?

Could one option be to use IfcAnnotation with a new PredefinedType=.UNCERTAINTY.?

galina-p-tuwien commented 1 year ago

Could one option be to use IfcAnnotation with a new PredefinedType=.UNCERTAINTY.?

I think an annotation should suffice. Thanks!

larswik commented 1 year ago

For the uncertainty properties, I can see a couple of options (there may be more):

larswik commented 1 year ago

@galina-p-tuwien: Can you check the discussion above? Questions:

galina-p-tuwien commented 1 year ago
Airy59 commented 1 year ago

Concerning the last solution :

Generally speaking:

I'd recommend:

galina-p-tuwien commented 1 year ago

grafik @larswik: This is an example for uncertainty as a subtype of IfcSimpleProperty in the specific case of the GeoLogInterval (with very small changes).

Airy59 commented 1 year ago

Is the underlying standard still ISO/TS 21749:2005 ?

SergejMuhic commented 1 year ago

grafik @larswik: This is an example for uncertainty as a subtype of IfcSimpleProperty in the specific case of the GeoLogInterval (with very small changes).

What I do not understand is the connection from IfcUncertainty to an IfcPropertySet. I do not see it in @larswik diagram. It would also cause problems most likely. My understanding was that UncertInterval should cover that data.

galina-p-tuwien commented 1 year ago

@Airy59: No, this is a simplified version discussed in the Geo subgroup. @SergejMuhic: That is correct. This is the change I added in order to accommodate things like the lookup table without having to define a new type. But it is just a suggestion...

larswik commented 1 year ago

What I do not understand is the connection from IfcUncertainty to an IfcPropertySet. I do not see it in @larswik diagram. It would also cause problems most likely. My understanding was that UncertInterval should cover that data.

In my UML above, i didn't include the specifics for:

The idea was to model these as explicitly as possible and would provide a kind of simple property (thus can be part of a Pset) with uncertainty without any "obscure pointers" between Psets. This kind of value could then be a part of any predefined or custom Pset and carries a value with its uncertainty (i.e. no "pointers" needed).

Shall we try to elaborate this approach?

galina-p-tuwien commented 1 year ago

Shall we try to elaborate this approach?

Yes, please. In the example I tested above I wanted to indicate that the types of uncertainty are not exhaustively covered by concepts like “rating” and “interval”. For that reason, I proposed a pset that can contain further details, but, as I said, it was just an attempt at greater flexibility. Should we compile a fixed list of possible uncertainty types in the Geo Subgroup?

larswik commented 1 year ago

Should we compile a fixed list of possible uncertainty types in the Geo Subgroup?

If this is possible, yes please!! If necessary, the proposed model could be extended with a couple of specific subtypes for IfcUncertainty (if this makes it better).