Request: Ignore illegal cargo/equipment on the captured ship.

binaryspica commented 3 months ago

Problem Description

Well if you want to use the illegal cargo you have the chance to be fined, indeed, but... what if you didn't want to use that but the ship captured from the filthy pirates has it already? You can get caught by a random scan and got fined, and If it is an equipment you are automatically fined as well when you dock.

This is very annoying since I don't want to use it at all,and all I did was to fight against those who use this, despite they blame me for this.

Desired Solution

At least before docking to a planet with a port(therefore it can be repaired) the captured ship should be exempt from any kind of fine for having illegal cargo/equipment, both for scanning and docked. -If the docked port does not have an outfitter, you may have a choice to discard all the illegal cargo/equipment, or detach those equipments and move it to the cargo during docked or before take off, and the protection wears off. -When you dock a planet with an outfitter, you are warned that you need to detach those equipments or you will be fined, and the protection wears off.

Alternative Approaches

Perhaps either the government and/or the authority ships may offer to remove those equipments immediately or you would be fined, rather than simply fine you for having those equipments.

Additional Context

No response

TomGoodIdea commented 3 months ago

An option to tell the government that the ship is captured and the illegal outfits were there before would fit nicely in the new hail panel in #6376, but it would still allow some exploitation as technically nothing prevents you from using those outfits (you could capture a ship, use its illegal outfits for some time and then say to ships scanning you that the outfits weren't yours). Alternatively, we could allow dumping any cargo and outfits immediately after the ship is captured, but the player would need to know which outfits are considered illegal.

binaryspica commented 3 months ago

An option to tell the government that the ship is captured and the illegal outfits were there before would fit nicely in the new hail panel in #6376, but it would still allow some exploitation as technically nothing prevents you from using those outfits (you could capture a ship, use its illegal outfits for some time and then say to ships scanning you that the outfits weren't yours). Alternatively, we could allow dumping any cargo and outfits immediately after the ship is captured, but the player would need to know which outfits are considered illegal.

Indeed, it helps when we have a mark when we saw the illegal cargo.

Asides, one of the other issue on here asks about SLAVE, which must be illegal(or even worse), but I don't think that it is a good idea to 'dumping' this for obvious reason.

Hurleveur commented 3 months ago

I think this is a fine (pun intended) thing to have, so long as it isnt an atrocity. Capturing is pretty strong, and if you need to pay an extra 1M for a pirate ship it's probably still worth it anyway (or 10M for a world ship). I don't think it happens often either, if at all, for pirate ships?

In general for atrocities and fines, I think we need to look at the precise cases where it happens in game, and if it makes sense to fine/arrest you.

Zitchas commented 3 months ago

I don't think the player should ever get a free pass.

"Honest, officer, I just found this ship drifting out there and it had all this nerve gas on it. It isn't mine, I'm just bringing it back to port for safety."

Should lead to "Oh, if it isn't yours, then here is 100k reward for bringing in a derelict ship, and we will take the ship and everything in it off your hands for proper disposal." Yoink, no more ship.

If the player wants to keep the ship as legally theirs, then they get to take the good with the bad.

Now, having someway to ditch outfits, that would be good. Some things, like grenades, should be as easy to get rid of as cargo. Other things that are actually functionally installed things in ships... Those should be harder. Might need to find an outfitter that didn't care about legality to help get rid of things... (This is why pirate Outfitters are a thing, right?)

SomeTroglodyte commented 3 months ago

This is why I always murder all Korath, civilians included[^1]. Sooner rather than later, you'll get fined for the Microbot Stations on a Ship you just captured 5 seconds before... In the same system while still in flight. That feels so ridiculous you'll need to compensate... And, as mentioned, you can't even dump them from the boarding dialog due to unplunderable 1.

[^1]: Not being quite serious here!

petervdmeer commented 3 months ago

I don't think the player should ever get a free pass.

I feel that the nicest solution is to make the choice at the start of a boarding session, before the ship is even captured. Not a big UI interaction, but just one checkbox; neutralize illegal outfits after capture, which the player checks or doesn't check.

If the player checks this checkbox, then Nerve Gas gets transformed into chemicals (cargo), and illegal automated defense systems (do we have those?) get transformed into electronics.

The checkbox should just remember the value from last time, so if the player chose to keep the illegal outfits last time, then the default is to keep it for the next run as well, while if the player choose to neutralize the illegal outfits last time, then the default is to also do that for the next run.

Zitchas commented 3 months ago

Well, nerve gas isn't that easy to dispose of, and converting alien biomachinery into electronics is the sort of thing that should need (at a minimum) a recycling factory. If anything, I'd like to see a smattering of pirate ships have nerve gas on them as a deterant, as well as an incentive to use an outfit scanner to pick targets that don't have illegal outfits if that's a concern for said player/captain...

In other words, people already have a choice, I don't see a need to remove all the consequences from taking the choice. Nor do I think removing a bit of work (aka finding a target that lacks illegal outfits if one is going to need to get the ship back through human-law-abiding space) is beneficial.

petervdmeer commented 3 months ago

Well, nerve gas isn't that easy to dispose of, and converting alien biomachinery into electronics is the sort of thing that should need (at a minimum) a recycling factory. If anything, I'd like to see a smattering of pirate ships have nerve gas on them as a deterant, as well as an incentive to use an outfit scanner to pick targets that don't have illegal outfits if that's a concern for said player/captain...

In other words, people already have a choice, I don't see a need to remove all the consequences from taking the choice. Nor do I think removing a bit of work (aka finding a target that lacks illegal outfits if one is going to need to get the ship back through human-law-abiding space) is beneficial.

Good points! I can agree with almost all of this, and my previous proposal was not that good. I however still feel that the example from SomeTroglodyte about getting a fine for a ship that was captured 5 seconds ago, while you are still in the middle of a fight with hostiles, together with the government officials that want to fine you, seems a bit odd. The government officials in that system do know that the ship was captured and not originally yours (since they are fighting by your side, in the same system).

Getting a fine upon landing however feels okay to me; just like you said; the player can choose where to land and if the player chooses to land on a port where the authorities care, then that is the players choice. (It might help if the fine message specifies which outfits were found, and on which ships, I think it currently doesn't. And it might also be nice if the outfits get confiscated there and then.)

I'm a bit mixed on getting a fine just after jumping out of very hostile territory. The ship has not been repainted yet into the players colors and the signs of battle should still be visible on the ship. We should on the other hand not make it too easy for the player to transport captured ships long distances through law-abiding space.

My new proposal therefore is: Don't fine ships that were captured since the last time the player landed/launched/jumped, except when those ships made 2 jumps by themselves. (And we should also fine ships that were send ahead by the player using the map-move-function, and ships that land to refuel on a law-abiding port.)

binaryspica commented 3 months ago

Although it's pointless to put the real world common sense but, isn't we supposed to be call for the police if we find something illegal? And we are exempt for the charge for this as well.

Anyway an another possible alternative is the captured ship lost all the illegal cargo/equipments for good, or any options that allows to do. For some equipments it is makes sense, such as microbot defense station, for it is possible to destroy those while boarding.

SomeTroglodyte commented 3 months ago

feel that the example from SomeTroglodyte

Don't forget that the Korath situation is a special one[^1], and was created with a specific storytelling goal. Having half a civilization attack you on sight and the other half sit idly by is already ~preposterous~ ~ridikkulus~ ...ahem, a tell-tale sign that might warn you to be careful. All in all, I feel a solution if any should be very simple in terms of code complexity and in terms of transparency to players, so my take at the moment would be: No change, the genius spark just hasn't sparked yet.

except when those ships made 2 jumps by themselves

Needing extra data -> -1 for complexity. The swizzle still sticking thing may be simpler.

microbot defense station, for it is possible to destroy those while boarding

Really? Am I missing some not-displayed secret key binding?

[^1]: Bunrodea too - but they don't offer illegal goods so readily

binaryspica commented 3 months ago

Really? Am I missing some not-displayed secret key binding?

I wonder that is there something missing? Since there is nothing we could missing in the first place.

tekker2234 commented 2 weeks ago

Well, nerve gas isn't that easy to dispose of, and converting alien biomachinery into electronics is the sort of thing that should need (at a minimum) a recycling factory. If anything, I'd like to see a smattering of pirate ships have nerve gas on them as a deterant, as well as an incentive to use an outfit scanner to pick targets that don't have illegal outfits if that's a concern for said player/captain...

In other words, people already have a choice, I don't see a need to remove all the consequences from taking the choice. Nor do I think removing a bit of work (aka finding a target that lacks illegal outfits if one is going to need to get the ship back through human-law-abiding space) is beneficial.

I agree that it could incentivise using an outfit scanner. However, I would personally advise against taking this as a good thing. As it stands now, having a no-questions-asked fine for capturing a ship with illegal outfits is more of a punishment for not using the outfit scanner rather than a positive benefit for using it (using a fine which means taking money from the player). That creates a negative feeling around not using an outfit scanner rather than a positive feeling around using it, making the experience worse on net for the player (worse when they are not using it, the same as capturing ships with no chance of having illegal outfits when not using it). Also for a player who encounters this for the first time this will feel very much like a "gotcha" type scenario, where the game leads them into a situation where they are punished for making an error that they were incentivized to make. (you are incentivized to capture pirates because it pays better than looting them. Now you have just been punished for doing the thing that the game is effectively telling you to do.)

Personally I would be in favor of adding an option to destroy or throw away (into space) the illegal outfits of ships you capture. I feel like a good middle of the road option would be something like a warning when you capture a ship that has illegal outfits and then a time limit, like what Petervdmeer proposed, where if you don't get rid of your captured illegal outfits/cargo within a few jumps or before landing at a law abiding port (perhaps a thing where you surrender it to the authorities) then you can get fined.

Maybe that could also still work to incentivize using scanners to pick your targets. You could have some kind of smallish reward for turning over the illegal items and open yourself up to fines if you don't. Maybe make it where the first time you land with an illegal item on a ship you have captured you get a dialogue option of turning it in for a reward or keeping it (to show the player the mechanic). I would then also have it be an option that the player can change in the settings so it doesn't become an annoying popup every time you land.

binaryspica commented 2 weeks ago

Not to mention that some ships that always have the illegal equipments. If I remember correctly, many Korath ships does, for many big Korath ships are have some microbot defense stations for all the variants, so there is no choice to avoid.

SomeTroglodyte commented 2 weeks ago

yup, still taking a lot of fun away. Visit the Korath exiles - you are attacked immediately. Capture one of their vessels that have Microbot defenses - no chance to dump them before, during, or after boarding. Seconds later, the Korath fine you for them. And to pay the fine it's FIVE(!)[^1] input events, and you can't even do it using only mouse or only keyboard, you need to use both. And you have to remember for the next port visit with banking services, which sometimes takes a while.

That's the subjective experience.

Sure I know these are two separate governments, and I only can't dump the crud because they're marked unplunderable, and there's a valid case for game (UN)balance, as selling captured ships is way too far above and beyond the next-best source of income, even comparing selling pirate rustbuckets with Wanderer passenger missions. Still, making it annoying isn't the way to address that. The annonyance won't make you board less...

<sarcasm> Republic fines you despite being at war? Dominate their entire space north of the Rim (south of that line angers your so-called allies, who will also fine you for capturing the very pirates they asked you to subdue in a mission), ~100k income per day, offsets a fine or two! :zany_face: </sarcasm>

[^1]: Edit - Actually, SIX for Microbot Defense Stations - "B", click, "1", "0", "M", Enter. Or is "G" recognized too[^2]? Worth a shot. [^2]: No it isn't. "1G" pays one credit. But "1T" seems to work.

TheGiraffe3 commented 2 weeks ago

@SomeTroglodyte five? You mean two. "B" and then "A".

Back on-topic, I think the alternative approach would be best. Just to give the player a slightly bigger sense of how much Marauders are breaking the law.

binaryspica commented 2 weeks ago

It would be easier to handle than marking each ships as seized until docking. Asking for something during the fly isn't something impossible either.

TheGiraffe3 commented 2 weeks ago

In my opinion lore-wise it is better to have you be told off by port authorities. But I don't believe it would be that hard to do the boarding and dropping approach; it just wouldn't be as immersive.

Zitchas commented 2 weeks ago

Perhaps also very relevant that maybe governments that the player has never visited and who are not allied with any governments the player has visited should have no means of directly and immediately draining the player's bank account.

It kind of makes sense that all the human governments can do so, they all have access to the human bank. But some random alien I don't even know where they live , don't speak the same language, don't share a banking network... How is that fine going through, anyway? The story of it just doesn't make sense.

waterhouse commented 1 week ago

I vote for "Silently ignore illegal stuff on captured ships until your next takeoff." That way I have the chance to use the outfitter to check for any nerve gas and dispose of it. Since nerve gas is unplunderable, I don't think there is actually any way for the player to dispose of it (while keeping the ship) before landing (and even if it were plunderable, it would be really un-fun for the player to have to dig through the outfit lists every time for that rare entry).

Possible implementation: "When a ship is captured, it gets a grace marker which gives its illegal contents a pass; and all grace markers are removed on takeoff (or, equivalently, removed upon landing, directly after the scan for illegal stuff)." Lore could be that the debris from the disabling, and/or from the boarding party's laser rifle battle, on freshly captured ships confuses the scanning sensors.

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