Bonemeal

[LucidCrux]

So since posting about it 10 days ago (http://www.reddit.com/r/SandcastleBuilder/comments/1w23qo/bonemeal_at_tier_1_or_lower/) I have come to the conclusion that this is definitely a big problem now for the part of the game I am in.

I am up to only 900 bonemeal with only minor checking in on the game. If people idle more than me, it would be even worse. For molpy down, you absolutely need bonemeal and if I wasn't saving up in advance it would take even longer to get enough for any amount of tier 2 items.

This has made the game extremely uneventful (boring even) for quite a while now. I have unlocked nothing new (apart from newly coded stuff) and felt like I've made 0 progress in that time. That is a very bad thing. There are fast spots and slow spots like I've told people, but this is way beyond slow. New players that get here without the benefit of pre-nerfed stuff will progress at an abysmal rate. Even really bad or near idle players should never feel like they are in the stand still I'm in.

It is late here, so no suggestions right now. Maybe some of the map content stuff will go around this stage, I don't know. But I had to make an issue while I was thinking about, and I think if we don't want to lose some players to boredom, it would be good to come up with some solutions sooner rather than later. Bonemeal needs a passive earner that is not a prize. I think any 'stuff', actually, should get at least one passive earner that is not a prize eventually.

[waveney]

Actually I am drowning in Bonemeal. Now have 12M of the stuff. It comes from having a high AC level and a high panther rush level. I don't click on a logicat with less than 4M puzzles at a time, I just click on the shadow dragon until I get Caged Logicat with a good number of Puzzles.

However I am also at a very boring stage. It will be a month (at least) before I have enough Maps to get to the next dragon stage, and most of that exists only in EDs mind. Once or twice an hour I raise the "It Sucks" or Panther Rush Level and a couple of times a day the AC by a couple of million, but there is no real challenge, I also think we need somethng new.

I have been pondering the need to build raftcastles - these need wood, floats, and Yurts. Yurts need wood, fabric and thread. Fabric needs to be made from thread, which needs to be made from wool, which can be obtained from goats. Making thread requires spinning wheels, these can be hand cranked or powered by hamster wheels, hamsters run on cake. There is scope for many boosts and tools, I would like to regain the variety of the early game with a range of tools, and the need for braincells rather than just clicking once every now and again. I am thinking this needs to be a complete sub plot. Not sure where to start, but I might by just introducing driftwood as a rare logicat reward, the code to use the wood would follow later...

[GeneralYouri]

That sounds like quite a big idea @waveney; it almost seems like a totally new game that you're looking to add onto SCB. I think you should be very careful in adding such stuff, and not make it completely take over the game at some point. Balance is key here. For comparison, I feel like such a feature should never add more stuff than the entire Discovery/Monument system does. I think you should just make one new Tab for this sub plot and try to put most of the new stuff in there.

[waveney]

Actually its about a theme that is linked back to the original Time and many more OTT features (ED has commented that we have diverged a long way from the original plot), it imay be a side plot, one that would not start too early, but needs completing eventually... I was thinking of a new Tools pane (or 2) as part of the mechanic.

[LucidCrux]

That doesn't sound like a bad idea at all to me. Another round of new tools or something would be nice as would tying thing back into the story more.

Still though, as I said in that other post, you are not a good test case for where I am at in the game. You had all kinds of benefits before they were nerfed and never molpied down after any of them to even somewhat be affected. There are people like you who will have a ton of stuff, but I think my state is much more similar to what newer players will have to go through, and bonemeal (as well as flux crystals) need some help and passive generation, even if it is minor. You just can't compare later stages of progression to earlier ones when more than linear formulas are at play.

For example, I could molpy down again right now and take advantage of the huge time lord and dragon forge bulk buy, that would help out a lot and raise those levels massively. I am not going to though, because after the nerf, people won't be able to. And jumping tens or hundreds of level in time lord, or thousands of levels of AC is a HUGE deal in terms of progression. Not doing some things I know are nerfed in the next patch has probably slowed me down more than a normal person who gets here after, but still, 10 days = 400 bonemeal is very harsh.

[waveney]

I have been thinking about Raftcastles for several days.

I agree I am high up with repect to levels of many things, but I am not as far ahead NP wise as many. Many of the things I have, have been nerfed, many on my suggestion, some however have been buffed and are MUCH easier to get than when I got them.

Many of these things need time and patience to build up the scale of production, rather than using it. I did this recently on Time Lord / Flux Crytals.

Bonemeal - I just tested - 10mnp = 10 clicks on Caged Logicat = 46K bonemeal. There is currently no use for the stuff. I made fertiliser to use it, thinking it woud be expensive, and it was when I introduced it. I do have one new boost to look forward to - Black hole that is beyond my affordability at the moment (becasue of the QQs).

[MichealRein]

A few months ago someone suggested another "stage" after you get infinte glass, which kind of sounds like his raft thing.

I'm just getting the prizes now because I didn't bother to do them previously.

But yea I liked the game a lot better when there was "strategy", in the sand/castles stage.

[GeneralYouri]

Two main points here.

1. Bonemeal gain, to me, doesn't seem in too bad of a state right now. The faster your Zookeeper gets, the more Caged Logicats you can feed to the Shadow Dragon. I'm currently getting an average of a couple hundred Caged Puzzles per mNP, which equates to a couple bonemeal from Shadow Dragon if I were to feed it. Sure, you need the Puzzles to get more Logic aswell, but for me right now, Logic is not exactly a limiting factor yet. When I first unlocked the Shadow Dragon I used it rather heavily, and made 1k Bonemeal in a couple days, before switching to solving the Puzzles for Logic. I also haven't ever Molpied Down yet. My question is; Just how much trouble do you currently have with getting Bonemeal though?
2. This one's a bit more directed towards @waveney. While some things are likely easier to get now, than they were when you got them, that doesn't mean there's no balancing issue with them. You've added quite a few Boosts over time, and especially for most of the more recent boosts I just can't quite figure out how on earth you got to their prices. The only thing I can think of is that you've somewhat modeled them to your current game and your estimate of what the average player will have when he should get that boost. Which isn't necessarily accurate. I think that more people should be looking at these prices, and checking for themselves if they find those prices realistic. Not to say that you're doing it wrong, but the more people take a look at it, the more accurate it's going to be.

Since I'm now able to get all of the main Stuffs, I'm going to be keeping an eye on the boosts and their prices to see if maybe they're a bit overpriced (or underpriced), I expect to come up with some price changes once I get to the newer boosts.

[waveney]

The price of many things is with a wet finger. Should it be cheap or expensive.

If they are just taking the grind out of an action I make them relatively cheap.

If they are doing something new, I make them expensive (for me).

Balance - what is that? I am sure the prices of many boosts are inappropriate.

I did Molpy down once months ago to get time travel (it was after it was possible to get rifts but they were still extreemly extreemly rare), I havn't done for any of the prizes.

[GeneralYouri]

I still feel like we'd get better prices if more people would check on them. Hence I'll certainly be checking for the prices myself.

[waveney]

Good idea - the prices of many things has been pretty arbitary.

[LucidCrux]

Especially the the newer stuff, I am not close to quite to few of them so I couldn't comment on their prices at all.

I think I mentioned it somewhere else too, but I think what would be quite useful is to come up with some kind of progression chart type of thing that starts maybe back around infinite chips/blocks and will be able to include plans for future stuff. It just seems to me like that is about the time the game structure starts to break up a bit. I think it would help us see gaps in new content, or if too much is piled on at once and needs tweaked (prizes), and would let us help ed implement new stuff beyond the occasional boost without feeling like we are stepping on his toes.

How exactly such a chart is made or progress broken up in steps, I have no ideas as of yet.

[eternaldensity]

I think the important things are

1. Fill in gaps where there's not much interesting happening
2. But don't break the balance too much that it becomes too easy so the gameplay runs out too fast
3. Remove boring grinds and slogs
4. Tweak some existing prices and orders and such so it hangs together better.
5. Make the 'Codex' into something useful that helps players play.

Perhaps we need some better place for developers to discuss than the github comments?

[LucidCrux]

I think we are doing quite well with just this. It works more or less as a message board, and I've helped with several game projects that were done only through message board.

What might help more, if you are up for it ED, is taking on a bit more of a leadership role (since it is your project). If you like something or think it should be put in, say "yeah, lets try fixing this or addressing this in such and such a way." If you don't agree on something, shoot it down (nicely if you can of course) or suggest more discussion on it. The fact is, not every suggestion or idea is going to be a good one or fit with your concept of the game.

It also helps a lot to have one person people can kind of expect to show up and say 'enough talk lets do something like this', or at least steer things in a certain direction. The projects I've had the most trouble with are ones where no one takes a lead role (game companies have lead developers for a reason) or where things are TOO democratic with too many top brass resulting in too many conflicting ideas and hardly anything ever being decided on.

You have been doing it somewhat, but seem reluctant to speak up too much. Could just be you are burnt out a bit on the project too, which is understandable.

[eternaldensity]

I've generally not said much because I'm generally pleased with the way things are going. Mostly when I do is when I'm especially pleased or when I don't like something. But yeah that's the sort of role I'm intending.

It may be helpful to have an issue for 'generally priorities discussion' and 'when the next release will be' discussion. Currently I'm hoping for a few more bugfixes before I push 3.33 live.

[waveney]

This has now been overtaken by developments - time to close