Align the concoction/spell system to the tiers (1,2,3,4,5)

[mlenser]

Use 1-5 catalysts/mana instead of 1-10. So every tier in the game (5, 9, 13, 17) new spells become available, but during that tier the spells are generally the same.

Some goals:

• Align the system to the tiers
• Have the augments be more meaningingful
• Simpler system (less mana to track)

[Marcloure]

How do you think that would affect half casters and maneuvers?

[Marcloure]

My biggest concern with this system is the damage scaling steps. Damage would potentially be very high at a new tier when you increase your limit, and maybe too low right before the next step

[mlenser]

How do you think that would affect half casters and maneuvers?

Maneuvers totally unaffected most likely. We could reduce the dice and double the value, but we'll see how spells turn out.

Half casters wouldn't align, you're right. I'll take a look at that and see what to do.

My biggest concern with this system is the damage scaling steps. Damage would potentially be very high at a new tier when you increase your limit, and maybe too low right before the next step

Agreed. I believe the overall damage will be similar, but it will be less busty than it currently is during those 2 levels where the is currently a boost, but wouldn't be in this system. But in a normal day the mana would still be used.

Current System

• Level 1 caster does ~4.6 DPR
• Level 2 caster does ~5.6 DPR
• Level 3 caster does ~7.8 DPR
• Level 4 caster does ~9.6 DPR

5 mana

• Level 3 caster does ~6.9 DPR
• Level 4 caster does ~8.3 DPR

It's lower, but not hugely problematic.

I think I need to increase the 1 mana damage from 10 to ~15. Most martials do ~8 DPR at level 1 and ~10-12 at level 2, ~14 at level 3 and ~18 at level 4. Spells should burst for more than DPR. Then those numbers would go up.

[mlenser]

I converted Fire and the change feels like the correct change to make - it fits much more naturally.

But goodness gracious this will be a lot of work.

Half casters

I think the best way to solve this is to offer 4 tiers instead of the current 3 (maneuvers, half half, and spells):

• Maneuvers
• 3/5 maneuvers, 2/5 spells
• 2/5 maneuvers, 3/5 spells
• Spells

[mlenser]

I think I need to increase the 1 mana damage from 10 to ~15

This option makes casters deadly around level 1-2. Scorching Ray for example would be 6d6, or 21 damage burst. But that's an attack with no save. It would be 5d6, or 17.5 damage burst with a save. Not much different.

On the other hand, a martial such as a Berserker GWM GWF Greataxe is dealing:

• Level 1: 8 DPR. On a hit he does 1d12 (6.5) + 3 + crit (~0.33) = 9.8 + 1d8 (4.5) = 14.3 damage burst
• Level 2: 12 DPR. On a hit he does 12.9 + 4.5 = 17.4 damage burst
• Level 3: 14 DPR. On a hit he does 13.9 + 4.5 = 18.4 damage burst
• Level 4 scales up even more with GWM and 5 even more with Extra attack.

Summary

Caster burst would surely be higher than martial burst, but it's actually currently too low. Currently scorching ray is 4d6 (14) vs a martial's 14.3 damage burst.

I think if there is a problem with burst damage then HP should be a bit higher at early levels for monsters and PCs.

[Marcloure]

Full caster's damage at the first 2 levels might be a bit low, but it stabilizes at 3rd level and beyond I think. Hungry Lightning deals 6d8 (27) damage with 2 mana, and 9d8 (40) with 3 mana.

Also, we are ignoring the caster's features for the full caster's damage, but are considering the martials's ones. For the Suffused specially, that damage can be quite higher with metamagic, power surge, and signature spell.

[mlenser]

Full caster's damage at the first 2 levels might be a bit low, but it stabilizes at 3rd level and beyond I think. Hungry Lightning deals 6d8 (27) damage with 2 mana, and 9d8 (40) with 3 mana.

In the current system and proposed system 1 mana is too low. 2 mana and beyond are fine in the current and proposed system.

Also, we are ignoring the caster's features for the full caster's damage, but are considering the martials's ones. For the Suffused specially, that damage can be quite higher with metamagic, power surge, and signature spell.

• Power surge: at 1 mana Power Surge adds 2 damage for 3 creatures. Nice, but really just adds 2 to the burst number above.
• Metamagic: metamagic won't increase the burst, only increase the number of targets or make it more difficult to avoid.
• Signature spell is definitely a huge burst increase. But that can only be used once before the caster is out of mana. Super super strong as 1 round can be defining, but that 1 round you've likely killed 1 NPC (with a lot of overkill) and then you're done. This probably needs to be toned down in either system. A higher mana spell at 2nd level is crazy strong.

We can't only look at the Suffused. That class is seemingly the only one who can increase their burst at this level and its quite limited based on the above.

[mlenser]

Ok I've played around with this more:

• Half casters would have a mana limit of 3 as 3 mana is effectively the same as 5/6 mana in the current system. They'd have 1 mana, go to 2 mana at level 9 and 3 mana at level 17. For Stamina Dice I can either give them 5 like a warrior, or I can have them choose between 3 mana and 4 stam or 2 mana and 5 stam (with the associated progressions). So maybe the half-half is 3 mana/4 stam and I could also offer a 2 mana/5 stam or a 4 mana/3 stam.
• Stamina limit would remain at 5 for Warriors, Rogue, etc. (it scales at 5,9,13,17)
• Mana for casters would scale at 5,9, 13,17
• Spells at the lower levels would remain similar. 1 mana wouldn't change. Maybe a few 2 mana would move to 1 mana. Maybe half or less 3 mana would move to 2 mana. 4/5/6 becomes 3 mana. 7/8 becomes 4 mana, 9/10 becomes 5 mana.
• Alchemy would mirror spells. 5 for casters, same system for half casters.
• AoE spells are currently a bit undervalued. I'll increase that either way

I looked at some numbers to see how much damage each tier should do. DMG is calculated by their guidelines and martial DPR is calculated with an additional 25% damage as I believe spells should do ~25% more than typical martial DPR. Martial DPR is the average of a Warrior GWM, Ranger TWF, and Magus Polearm taken at the first level and 3rd level of each tier. I need spells to scale in a linear fashion for augmenting to work, so they scale at 20 damage more per mana.

• Tier 1 / 1 mana: Martial ~8/14 DPR (11 average, 14 DPR after 25%). DMG Guideline ~14 for 1st and 2nd level spells combined. My guideline: 15
• Tier 2 / 2 mana: Martial ~29/31 DPR (30 average, 38 DPR after 25%). DMG Guideline ~30 for 3rd and 4th level spells combined. My guideline: 35
• Tier 3 / 3 mana: Martial ~36/42 DPR (39 average, 49 DPR after 25%). DMG Guideline ~50 for 5th and 6th level spells combined. My guideline: 55
• Tier 4 / 4 mana: Martial ~46/47 DPR (46 average, 58 DPR after 25%). DMG Guideline ~63 for 7th and 8th level spells combined. My guideline: 75
• Tier 5 / 5 mana: Martial ~51/52 DPR (52 average, 65 DPR after 25%). DMG Guideline ~88 for 9th and mocked 10th level spells combined. My guideline: 95

Super basic examples:

• Desiccate (1 mana) does 6d6 (21) to a single target on a fort save or half and augments for 8d6 (28). Current Desiccate does 3d8 at 1 mana and augments for 3d8. So if we compare it at 2 mana in both systems we end up with 9d8 (40.5) in the old system vs 14d6 (49) in the new system.
• Hungry Lightning (1 mana) does 3d12 (19.5) to a single target on a ref save or half and augments for 4d12 (26). Current Hungry Lightning does 3d8 at 1 mana and augments for 3d8. So if we compare it at 2 mana in both systems we end up with 9d8 (40.5) in the old system vs 14d6 (455.) in the new system.
• Fireball (2 mana) does 7d6 (24.5) in a 10 foot radius sphere on a ref save or half and augments for 2d6. So quite similar to RAW at 3rd level spell.

The single target burst is now using 35 as the guideline instead of 30 so it makes sense that the damage is a bit higher. Overall I'm a bit concerned about single target burst in both systems.

Some higher mana examples:

• Desiccate in the current system would do ~67.5 damage at 5 mana and ~81 damage at 6 mana, 79.2 damage at 3 mana in the new system (it is slightly over the guideline, currently)
• Recall Agony in the current system would do ~65 damage at 5 mana and ~78 at 6 mana, 71.5 damage at 3 mana in the new system
• Blight, level 4 RAW spell, does 8d8 (36) damage or half on a save. Though this spell is pretty weak as fireball does 31.5 in a 20 foot radius sphere at level 4.
• Finger of Death, level 6 RAW spell, does 7d8 + 30 (61.5) damage or half on a save and also raises a zombie
• Harm, level 6 RAW spell, does 14d6 (49) damage or half on a save

Those damage numbers are huge and also have half damage on saves. Something to look at for both systems.

[Marcloure]

According to the DPR spreadsheet, martials have around 8 DPR at 1st level, not 12. Or are those numbers you listed the update goal?

[mlenser]

Ya, sry, 12 is what I had written on the current Theme Balance sheet. 12 is not correct at level 1. I'll update the numbers above and as another reply in the morning (up to feed babies now)

[mlenser]

I updated the numbers above with more accurate numbers.

Single target burst is potentially a problem for both systems.

[mlenser]

Tier 1 / 1 mana

• PC level: 1-4
• Martial ~8/14 DPR (11 average, 14 DPR after 25%)
• DMG Guideline ~14 for 1st and 2nd level spells combined
• My guideline: 15
• Actual single target spell damage: ~20
• Min meaningful monster HP (CR 1/2): ~20
• Min meaningful monster killed by a single target spell: ~100%
• Max monster HP (CR 5): ~85
• Max monster killed by a single target spell: ~25%
• Average monster HP: ~50
• Average monster killed by a single target spell: ~40%

Tier 2 / 2 mana

• PC level: 5-8
• Martial ~29/31 DPR (30 average, 38 DPR after 25%)
• DMG Guideline ~30 for 3rd and 4th level spells combined
• My guideline: 35
• Actual single target spell damage: ~48
• Min meaningful monster HP (CR 2): ~42
• Min meaningful monster killed by a single target spell: ~114%
• Max monster HP (CR 9): ~125
• Max monster killed by a single target spell: ~38%
• Average monster HP: ~86
• Average monster killed by a single target spell: ~56%

Tier 3 / 3 mana

• PC level: 9-12
• Martial ~36/42 DPR (39 average, 49 DPR after 25%)
• DMG Guideline ~50 for 5th and 6th level spells combined.
• My guideline: 55
• Actual single target spell damage: ~75
• Min meaningful monster HP (CR 4): ~72
• Min meaningful monster killed by a single target spell: ~104%
• Max monster HP (CR 13): ~177
• Max monster killed by a single target spell: ~42%
• Average monster HP: ~126
• Average monster killed by a single target spell: ~60%

Tier 4 / 4 mana

• PC level: 13-16
• Martial ~46/47 DPR (46 average, 58 DPR after 25%)
• DMG Guideline ~63 for 7th and 8th level spells combined
• My guideline: 75
• Actual single target spell damage: ~102
• Min meaningful monster HP (CR 6): ~95
• Min meaningful monster killed by a single target spell: ~107%
• Max monster HP (CR 17): ~234
• Max monster killed by a single target spell: ~44%
• Average monster HP: ~160
• Average monster killed by a single target spell: ~64%

Tier 5 / 5 mana

• PC level: 17-20
• Martial ~51/52 DPR (52 average, 65 DPR after 25%)
• DMG Guideline ~88 for 9th and mocked 10th level spells combined
• My guideline: 95
• Actual single target spell damage: ~130
• Min meaningful monster HP (CR 8): ~114
• Min meaningful monster killed by a single target spell: ~114%
• Max monster HP (CR 21): ~320
• Max monster killed by a single target spell: ~40%
• Average monster HP: ~208
• Average monster killed by a single target spell: ~63%

Averages across all tiers

• Min meaningful monster killed by a single target spell: ~107%
• Max monster killed by a single target spell: ~38%
• Average monster killed by a single target spell: ~56%

The numbers at tier 1 are the lowest, which is nice.

So based on these numbers the spell damage seems like it is within a good bounds.

[mlenser]

This is progressing along. See Themes Balance 5 mana for the current progress.

[mlenser]

Some guidelines:

1 mana

• Direct damage spells
• Direct damage with minor or medium conditions
• Minor or medium conditions
• Cones, Lines, and Spheres emanating from the caster
• Summoning/Raise dead

2 mana

• Direct damage with major conditions
• Persistent damage with medium or major conditions
• Major conditions
• Cylinders, Spheres, and Walls
• Terrain creation (Bones of the Earth, Ice Spear, etc)
• Regeneration
• Transform yourself

3 mana

• AoE with major conditions
• Avoid falling to 0 with a damage burst attached
• Target effectively removed from battle for a short time period

4 mana

• Powerful spells like Clone, Antipathy, Feeblemind, Holy Aura, Maze, Mighty Fortress, Sympathy

5 mana

• Powerful, theme defining spells

Just summoning spells left and the hundreds that aren't on my damage calculation sheet.

[Marcloure]

I believe we can use PHB as a guideline for utility spells. Distant Teleport, for instance, probably should be available at 3 mana with an augment to bring allies at 4 mana

[mlenser]

Still todo:

• ~Finish Fiendish Calling~
• ~Determine if Wild Shape can be used at 1 mana or should all transforms stay at 2 mana. I lean toward 2 mana.~
  • ~Air Form~
  • ~Corrosive Form~
  • ~Earth Form~
  • ~Fire Form~
  • ~Ice Form~
  • ~Sand Form~
  • ~Storm Form~
  • ~Water Form~
  • ~Wild Shape~
• Final Review to try to find any remaining 10 mana system stuff

Almost done

[mlenser]

@Marcloure @itamarcu please check out https://5mana.kryxrpg.com/rpg/changelog and let me know if you notice any issues with the new 5 mana system besides those issues above.

Power balance is at https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VVduALSLGnbAlxJaFncqAxVMM_jun3eXhZeLScGOSvc/edit#gid=1121938024

[Marcloure]

Shouldn't half maneuvers, half spells classes have 2 mana at 5th level? They gain an additional mana every 4 levels, but not while they have 1 mana [1–5] or 5 mana [18–20].

---

One thing that I noticed while scrolling through spells is that it's much easier to balance utility. Should flight be available at 1st level, 5th level, or 9th level is a much easier question to answer than how it was previously, when it was hard to judge how the spells' power should increase from 7th level to 9th level, for instance.

[mlenser]

Shouldn't half maneuvers, half spells classes have 2 mana at 5th level? They gain an additional mana every 4 levels, but not while they have 1 mana [1–5] or 5 mana [18–20].

They should actually have 0 mana at 1st level, but I've set it to a minimum of 1 else things get weird for them and monsters.

Here is the way it is calculated:

• level 1/4 = 0.25, rounded = 0
• level 2/4 = 0.5, rounded = 1
• level 3/4 = 0.75, rounded = 1
• level 4/4 = 1, rounded = 1
• level 5/4 = 1.25, rounded = 1
• level 6/4 = 1.5, rounded = 2

But I manipulate level 1 to have 1 mana. I may try to fix that more properly in the future...

One thing that I noticed while scrolling through spells is that it's much easier to balance utility. Should flight be available at 1st level, 5th level, or 9th level is a much easier question to answer than how it was previously, when it was hard to judge how the spells' power should increase from 7th level to 9th level, for instance.

Fully agreed - I find this true for all spells.

[mlenser]

I think Wild Shape and other transforming spells should remain 2 mana. The Naturalist can use them as part of its Primal Call so 2nd level. I think the current situation is a good solution.

[Marcloure]

Now, some mana misalignment:

• Metafaculty is listed as a 10 mana spell
• Walls of Light, Thorns, and Water are 3 mana on the site, but 2 on the spreadsheet
• Wall of Stone is not listed on the spreadsheet, and is a 4 mana spell on the site
• Distant Teleport should bring enough creatures so a whole party can teleport when augmented to 4 mana (currently it allows 3 creatures to teleport)
• Maybe Banishment, Hurl Through Hell, and other banishing spells should be at 3 mana?
• Suggestion is a 2nd level spell in RAW, but I think it's considerably more powerful than other options such as Friends. Shouldn't it be at 2 mana now?
• Haste/Slow is in a weird position now. I think it should grant haste/slow 2 at 2 mana, and increase to haste/slow 4 at 3 mana
• Double AOE areas? Or are the spells now balanced around smaller areas?

I caught these for now.

[Marcloure]

They should actually have 0 mana at 1st level, but I've set it to a minimum of 1 else things get weird for them and monsters.

I feel like it's ok if they gain additional mana when full casters increase their limit, but I understand what you mean

[mlenser]

Maybe Banishment, Hurl Through Hell, and other banishing spells should be at 3 mana?

Hurl Through Hell is just a 1 turn pop out of existence, similar to Time Hop (also 2 mana), but auto-save to come back, but take some damage. So I think that one is good. Banishment is 4th level in RAW. I allow repeating the save if you're native to the plane of existance which makes it easier to come back than RAW. So I think these are ok.

Suggestion is a 2nd level spell in RAW, but I think it's considerably more powerful than other options such as Friends. Shouldn't it be at 2 mana now?

You're probably right. It feels weak, but 2 is probably better

Haste/Slow is in a weird position now. I think it should grant haste/slow 2 at 2 mana, and increase to haste/slow 4 at 3 mana

I think hasted 2 is good for 1 mana.:

• +10 feet speed and it gains a +2 bonus to AC and Reflex saving throws.
• On its turn, it gains an additional action on each of its turns.That action can only be used to take the Dash, Disengage, Hide, or Use an Object action.

That seems like a reasonable 1 mana spell. Similar for slowed 2. The conditions get nastier so I think 1 level for 1 mana after this feels ok.

Double AOE areas? Or are the spells now balanced around smaller areas?

Balanced around smaller areas. Fireball for example is a 10 foot radius at 2 mana, 15 at 3, 20 at 4. This way feels better after playing other games like Gloomhaven. A 10 foot radius is actually 12 squares so quite big. 24 squares at 15, 44 at 20, etc.

[mlenser]

The other stuff is live

[mlenser]

I feel like it's ok if they gain additional mana when full casters increase their limit, but I understand what you mean

Ah, that'd be better!

[Marcloure]

Balanced around smaller areas.

I think this is better as well. With large areas, casting a high mana fireball was only worth if you could damage a lot of enemies. More damage in a smaller area means that affecting 2 or 3 creatures is already worth the spell, which I think is more likely to happen.

[wherfz]

I'm unsure if I like this idea, I'm not convinced it is a meaningful benefit to change mana this way. It certainly is novel though I don't have a good argument against it. When I have time I'll look through some spells and I'll have more comments. Counterspell and Dispel Magic would have to scale a bit differently.

[mlenser]

I'm unsure if I like this idea, I'm not convinced it is a meaningful benefit to change mana this way.

Pretty far down this road. I've just rebalanced the whole system. I've been posting here for a week to get more feedback.

As far as I can see it the benefits far outweigh the cons

Pros

• Tier system is more defined.
• How much mana a spell should use is much more clear
• Less numbers (mana) to track
• Spell burst damage is now sitting around 25% more than martial DPR during the first two tiers (maybe higher tiers as well)

Cons

• Spell progression can be different from RAW (1,5,9 instead of 1,3,5,7,9).

Pro and Con

• Spells are more effective meaning they happen less often
  • The amount of resources is still higher than RAW. A 3rd level Wizard will have 3 mana per short rest, or about 7-9 mana over a day. By RAW a 3rd level Wizard has 4 1st level spells and 2 2nd level spells. So this is very comparable and feels like a happy medium between RAW's too few resources and the current system's too many minute resources.
• Half casters feel like half-casters now. They have to wait until higher levels to access more powerful magic whereas in the old system they got it pretty quickly. Though I think this is mitigated by spells being placed at their proper tier.

I could probably expand on this and feel free to add to it.

[wherfz]

This helps, thank you! I'm discussing some of the changes with some of my players. The transition of power across levels seems more 'staggered' where some levels are more important than others. Leveling up could be less satisfying for players while waiting for those 'big' levels (17 for Gishes is a big level!). I'll have to play with it to really get an understanding of how satisfying the tier system is compared to the 10 mana system.

[shemetz]

Spells are more effective meaning they happen less often

This is a huge difference, and while I believe none of us have actually playtested this to try it out, I'm really worried about this.

Most of the pros that you brought up are "this system is easier to balance". While this is nice, it's not the main goal of the game, and it basically is a list of nice-to-haves.

However, the fact that all spells now cost half as much and you have half as much mana means that you're going to use your spells much more sparingly. This means, for full-casters...

• You'll be using cantrips much more often, because your resources are very easily lost and you really don't want to lose that emergency last point of mana for a utility spell (feather fall, shield, levitate, etc)

• You'll use less utility spells in general. Normally a 3rd level RAW Wizard has two 2nd-level slots and four 1st-level slots, so casting a small utility spell (Comprehend Languages, Detect Magic, Jump, Feather Fall) was relatively safe, as it cost you about a sixth of your resources, or even less than that since you value your 2nd-level slots more highly. Now, though, a 3rd level Wizard will only have 3 mana, and each of these utility spells costs a whole 33% of that. Considering the amount of encounters (combat or obstacle) between short rests, I feel like this makes it very easy for the Wizard to simply avoid using utility spells unless they're sure they have a rest coming up, when they're at low levels.

One of the major draws to playing a caster, especially a wizard, is the idea of collecting a lot of little magical solutions to potential problems, and enjoying the spotlight when they come up. With this change, basically all of the 1st level utility spells are nerfed to cost twice as many (relative-) resources, and I don't think that's fun.

During combat, if you only have 1-3 mana and a fight lasts more than 1 round, you will probably be using your default attack (a cantrip) almost every single round. That's boring.

Even if all previously-1-mana spells are buffed to be twice as effective (very difficult with utility spells!), it isn't going to solve this problem.

I think that the ramifications of making a change like this should be heavily considered with regards to out-of-combat utility for all classes, and generally with regards to how the game feels, and not just is mechanically balanced.

[mlenser]

Most of the pros that you brought up are "this system is easier to balance". While this is nice, it's not the main goal of the game, and it basically is a list of nice-to-haves.

Many are about play:

• "Less numbers (mana) to track" means the game makes it simpler for people to manage their resources.
• "Spell burst damage is now sitting around 25% more than martial DPR during the first two tiers (maybe higher tiers as well)" is very much about play. A caster should do more burst than a Warrior does consistent damage.
• "Spells are more effective meaning they happen less often" is very much about play - this changes how spells are used
• "Half casters feel like half-casters now" is definitely about play. Previously, half casters felt like they had access to powerful magic at very low levels.

---

However, the fact that all spells now cost half as much and you have half as much mana means that you're going to use your spells much more sparingly.

A 3rd level Wizard will have 3 mana per short rest, or about 7-9 mana over a day. By RAW a 3rd level Wizard has 4 1st level spells and 2 2nd level spelsl. So this is very comparable.

That said I think https://github.com/mlenser/kryx-rpg-issues/issues/125 might alleviate some of your concerns

---

You'll use less utility spells in general. [...] RAW [...] cost you about a sixth of your resources [...] Now [...] costs a whole 33% of that.

See above, short rests are the basis of the game. It's actually better in my proposed system than RAW.

I think that the ramifications of making a change like this should be heavily considered

It's still more resources than RAW. Less than the old system, but I believe the old system had too many minute resources. This feels like a happy medium.

[mlenser]

Even if all previously-1-mana spells are buffed to be twice as effective (very difficult with utility spells!)

The whole system is up for review: https://5mana.kryxrpg.com/rpg/themes

Please do provide feedback on any 1 mana spells that you think are not effective.

I'm sure there are a few (Friends maybe).

[eunomicZenith]

I'm unhappy with the fact that Image costs virtually twice as much mana to cast at its baseline cost, and costs the virtual equivalent of 4 mana rather than 3 to upgrade to a Major Image. (It used to cost 1+2, now it costs 1+1, but the value of mana is essentially doubled)

I agree with itamarcu that, in general, spending the equivalent of 2 mana casting Feather Fall or what-have-you is pretty damn harsh, especially at low levels.

In general, you can scale damage dice and other numbers-based effects to rebalance stuff like Sandblast, sure, but it's pretty much impossible not to really hurt spells where the numbers don't really matter. I brought up two examples, I'm sure there's countless others that are hurt by the fact that you're now virtually using up twice as many resources for the same exact effect, and even if you tried to balance stuff by, say, making Feather Fall affect two people baseline and two extra people for every extra mana it's augmented, you'd still end up hurting its usability a lot. I don't think there's a satisfying way to rebalance utility spells.

[mlenser]

the equivalent of 2 mana casting Feather Fall

Feedback is super important to this project, but I please ask that the feedback be informed feedback.

Feather Fall being effectively 2 mana is a pretty false claim that 1 mana spells effectively cost 2, which isn't the case. I purposefully avoided doing as you've written.

Damage spells do more damage than the current sytsem, but the current system's damage spells don't do enough damage compared to martial DPR as I outlined above. That has to be fixed.

Looking at resource usage:

Level 3

• RAW Wizard has 4 1st level spells and 2 2nd level spells. This is equivalent of about 6-8 "mana" over a day.
• Current Wizard 6 mana, or about 15-18 mana over a day
• 5 mana Wizard has 3 mana, or about 7-9 mana over a day

As you can see here the 5 mana system is much closer to RAW than the current system. The current system allows far too much minute utility, about 3x as much as RAW. That's not good. Options should be plentiful, but the total usage should not be 3x as much as RAW.

I'm unhappy with the fact that Image costs virtually twice as much mana to cast at its baseline cost

Is Image a bad 1 mana spell compared to other 1 mana spells in the new system? Is Major Image a bad 2 mana spell compared to other 2 mana spells in the new system?

I don't think there's a satisfying way to rebalance utility spells.

Please list some utility spells that you feel are not balanced. I believe 95%+ of them are very useful for their current costs. Compared to the current system, sure, they're weaker, but the current system is 3x the usage of RAW for small utility spells and that's not ok.

Please look at the system and evaluate it fairly. If you're comparing it to a system that is overpowered in a certain regard and then express dissatisfaction that the new system fixes that overpowered aspect then that doesn't help anyone.

[Marcloure]

I am not sure if I should open a new issue for this or make it here, but I think Divine Word should be a 4 mana spell. It's a 7th level spell in RAW (available at 13th level), and it can cause a mass banishment of outsiders.

[shemetz]

Examples of spells with 1-mana augments that improve the functionality of the spell in a non-quantitative way:

Ice Block has this augment:

You can expend 1 additional mana to trigger the spell when a creature that you can see within 18 meters is attacked. The attacked creature gains the benefits instead.

Protection from Acid has an augment to cast the spell as a reaction.

Alter Self has an augment to make yourself look like a specific person, and an augment to add smell to the alteration,

Haste/Slow has an augment to add additional creatures. Note that this is one of the spells that was "buffed" by this change (it increases the level of haste/slow from 1 to 2, affecting speed as well), but now adding additional creatures is even more costly. previously you could haste-1 four creatures for four mana (very useful), but now for the relative same cost you can only haste two of them and they also run faster which might be useless to you in many situations.

Healing Word - bonus action healing - even if it now heals a bit more, it's no longer available to characters below 5th level. Note that the healing power of the spell is not as important; Healing Word's strength is in bonus-action healing-from-unconsciousness when you can't afford to lose your main action.

Teleport has four different 1-mana augments that are awesome and useful and now functionally cost twice as much and can only be cast after 5th level (instead of 3rd) when you're a fullcaster.

Invisibility had five augments. Two of them (Greater Invisibility, Misty Escape) were reduced in cost to 1 mana, which is reasonable. But the other three are now comparatively much more expensive, and can't be cast as early. Invisibility as a 1 hour spell (available at 3rd level) is something that many low level parties rely on for all sorts of shenanigans, and now after this change it seems like a waste to cast 2 mana for a 1-hour invisibility to sneak around the guards and open the backdoor when instead you could put a 1-minute Greater Invisibility on your friend and bash people's heads in.

[mlenser]

I am not sure if I should open a new issue for this or make it here, but I think Divine Word should be a 4 mana spell. It's a 7th level spell in RAW (available at 13th level), and it can cause a mass banishment of outsiders.

In the current system I have it at 6 mana. I think it's a good spell, but all its conditions are based on HP so you'd have to weaken meaningful creatures a significant amount before this spell could take effect. I think that's doubtful. Though I mostly skipped over the last part about forcing a creature back to its plane of origin. Perhaps that should be an augment? Then it can be 3, or even 2 mana, and an augment for that aspect at 4 mana.

[shemetz]

(follow-up to my comment) It would be difficult or impossible to rebalance each of these spells in a way that keeps them usable and augmentable and doesn't look extremely odd (e.g. "when you cast this spell, you can augment it once with your choice of these...").

I believe that this suggested change is just the wrong way to solve the stated goals, because it hurts the game.

One of the best parts about Kryx's RPG is the modularity and versatility of things, and augmenting spells is perhaps my favorite part about it. Reducing the resolution of mana so harshly makes so many cool options so much harder to justify using, if not impossible. I really think this huge change isn't worth the cost, and instead, other parts of the system could be changed to serve the intended goals (e.g. reduce mana gained in short rests, increase maneuver system to 1-10, rebalance specific spells and maneuvers to fit the general trend better).

[mlenser]

Comparing spells 1-for-1 with the old system doesn't get us very far. The system is different so changes will occur.

Ice Block has this augment [to use it on another creature] Protection from Acid has an augment to cast the spell as a reaction

• If Ice Block reaction to shield yourself is 1 mana then a reaction to shield another creature is definitely 2 mana based on how every other spell in the system works. If 2 AC on another creature as a reaction is not strong enough as a 2 mana spell then we can buff it to 3.
• Protection augments should 1 mana in either system when spells like Ice Block, Agonizing Rebuke, Fiery Rebuke, Wrath of the Storm, and Winter’s Bite exist.

Alter Self has an augment to make yourself look like a specific person, and an augment to add smell to the alteration

Alter Self is a very strong spell. Much stronger than Disguise for example. What is the issue here, that a specific person is stronger than smell? Both options cover up some weakenesses of Alter Self:

• Smell is useful for scenarios where you're hiding from creatures in a cave for example. You now smell like the creature in the cave or food (toads) or something else.
• Looking like a specific individual is very strong for social encounters. Looking like the king for example.

This one seems totally fine as is.

Haste/Slow has an augment to add additional creatures.

A great many spells do have this augment. I believe it is a fairly balanced augment, but I haven't analyzed it fully so if you think 2 people per augment is better, then a new issue about that would be great so we can discuss it.

Healing Word's strength is in bonus-action healing-from-unconsciousness when you can't afford to lose your main action.

And that is incredibly strong. I would argue that shouldn't exist as a 1 mana spell. You could make the argument that their are bonus action variants of damage spells and one could exist for heal, but the ability to heal as a bonus action feels a bit too strong for 1 mana. Healing from 0 HP is already easy, we should not make it easier.

That said, I'm open to a bonus action variant. It feels very PF2e style in that regard.

Invisibility [...] after this change it seems like a waste to cast 2 mana for a 1-hour invisibility to sneak around the guards and open the backdoor when instead you could put a 1-minute Greater Invisibility on your friend and bash people's heads in.

If you're just sneaking around the guards 1 minute could suffice. It's a risky game. 1 mana Invis definitely shouldn't be stronger. If anything should change here I'd say Greater Invisibility which allows you to bash creatures incessantly should be 3 mana total. I've always thought that was very undervalued.

One of the best parts about Kryx's RPG is the modularity and versatility of things, and augmenting spells is perhaps my favorite part about it.

That option is still available for the most part, but a bit muted as you've pointed out. I believe the muted version is more sustainable. The several tiny augments is harder to manage than more meaningful augments. We can adjust those that are not worthwhile.

I really think this huge change isn't worth the cost, and instead, other parts of the system could be changed to serve the intended goals

I don't see how you can solve the 3x resources compared to RAW of the current system. I think it's much easier to start with good system design and then tweak instead of trying to patch holes like that 3x issue.

Besides, this discussion really should've started a week ago. I opened this issue 8 days ago and have been referencing it in multiple other issues. I've dont experimental poking and proding to try things out to see how it feels over the last week. The feedback has come at the last minute after I've spent nearly 2 days straight converting the sytsem. It's been a massive amount of work and my time is quite restricted now that I have two infant twins.

TL;DR: We should rebalance weak points (such as #125), but I don't see another way forward than the 5 mana system.

[shemetz]

Comparing spells 1-for-1 with the old system doesn't get us very far. The system is different so changes will occur.

Yeah, that makes sense, but the previous system was inherently mostly balanced around either existing 5e spells/recommendations or slow changes you've implemented. Balancing decisions (such as "what's the value of adding smell to Alter Self?") were made in a different context than this new one, and it's much easier to create fair and balanced changes to a system incrementally than making one huge change and then going one-by-one through hundreds of bits and tinkering with what you can.

solve the 3x resources

~~Could you explain what you're referring to, specifically? If it's the fact that players have too many resources to keep track of, I disagree (as keeping track of a single total of mana is much easier than having to keep track of spell slots, and having almost no short/long rest separation also makes it things easy to keep track of). ~~

Nevermind! Got it now. That's indeed an issue that I'm hoping #125 will solve. It seems like a good improvement, regardless of this specific change to the system!

Still, it sounds like an issue that regards maximum mana, not what can be done with it.

I think it's much easier to start with good system design and then tweak We should rebalance weak points

While I really agree with this statement, I also think that the 5 mana progression doesn't mesh well enough with the augments, and makes it much harder to make further tweaks and rebalance weak points. Yeah, it makes tier changes and augment usage more impactful, but it also makes augments much rarer, removes a lot of options from early game (which is the most commonly played tiers), and feels like it has a hidden cost of making it much harder to design in the future (as you have less moving parts to play with and have a harder time balancing each choice not to be over- or under-powered).

this discussion really should've started a week ago

I definitely agree, it's just that me and my player group have only discovered this system three days ago :P

I'm really sorry for opposing this change so late into its development, and I know how much it sucks to have personal development time wasted because something you worked on ends up not accepted. I really love everything about this cool project you've built, but this change still seems to me like it would remove fun from this system, and not add to it.

With all that said, I do want to point out that I did not (yet!) play actual sessions with this system and a lot of my concerns and suggestions are based on pure speculation and gut feeling. I wish I'd discovered this RPG months ago, because it seems so good in so many ways, and then I would have had a better idea about the effects of this change.

[Marcloure]

I was talking with one of my players, and he noted that a 1 mana bless eats quite a lot of his mana as a Paladin. Overall, the issue is that 1 mana spells have the same power, but cost twice as much. Again, I believe this can be mitigated by resolving #125 , since it's part of the goal to reduce the total mana on a day.

[mlenser]

it's much easier to create fair and balanced changes to a system incrementally than making one huge change

Agreed, but sometimes you have to bite the bullet. If you look back through the changelog you'll see that this system started at 9 slot levels, then 9 mana, then a 6 mana system, then a 10 mana system, now a 5 mana system. It sounds a bit bad now that I write it out and granted this has been over 3-4 years now, but the casting system is hard to get perfect.

That's indeed an issue that I'm hoping #125 will solve. It seems like a good improvement, regardless of this specific change to the system!

125 does not solve the issue at all. It just moves some resources from short rests to long rests. There would still be 16 utility spells a day.

In a system with #125 the Wizard would have ~9 mana and recover ~4.5 on a each short rest, or about 15-18 mana over a day. Still the same 3x issue.

5 mana progression doesn't mesh well enough with the augments

The system's goal isn't to be a modular augmentable system. If that were the goal then the current system serves that purpose much better, I'll give you that. But I believe the current system has strayed a bit too far from RAW in terms of total spells per days. It can make social options trivial due to the amount of utility spells. Bigger size chunks does indeed make it harder to create small little bite-size augments, but I believe it is a better design to have meaningful augments more than tiny ones.

removes a lot of options from early game (which is the most commonly played tiers)

• Cantrips: 89
• 1 mana spells: 313
• 2 mana spells: 269
• 3 mana spells: 66
• 4 mana spells: 12
• 5 mana spells: 20

The significant vast majority of the spells are available in the first two tiers for the full caster and by the 3rd tier for the half-caster. The full caster progression is ultimately very similar to RAW and the half caster gives and takes - it gets a lot more options, but the bigger options come a bit later.

I really love everything about this cool project you've built, but this change still seems to me like it would remove fun from this system, and not add to it.

If I end up going with the 5 mana system I'll leave the 10 mana system available as long as people desire it. It would just receive no updates.

I'm going to try to fix some of the utility spells you mentioned above to clean them up and see how they look. All the "resist damage" spells should have 2-3 variants in the same spell:

• Action to give resistance for a long time
• Reaction to resist the damage
• Reaction to deal damage back (this one should maybe be a different spell)

[mlenser]

I was talking with one of my players, and he noted that a 1 mana bless eats quite a lot of his mana as a Paladin. Overall, the issue is that 1 mana spells have the same power, but cost twice as much. Again, I believe this can be mitigated by resolving #125 , since it's part of the goal to reduce the total mana on a day.

Is he a full caster or half-half Paladin? Half-half will surely pay some costs to get both maneuvers and spells. If he wants more spells then spell-strike like spells will have to suffice for the bonus to weapon damage and he should drop maneuvers.

125 won't really solve what your player is after. The amount of resources will be the same, but he could spread them out a bit better over the day.

Level 5

• RAW Paladin has 4 1st level spells and 2 2nd level spells. This is equivalent of about 6-8 "mana" over a day.
• Current Paladin (full spells) 5 mana, or about 13-15 mana over a day
• 5 mana Paladin (full spells) has 3 mana, or about 7-9 mana over a day

So pretty comparable to the Wizard comparison above and closer to RAW.

[Marcloure]

He is a spell-only paladin. He had 10 mana before (10th level), so casting bless, daylight, or similar spells would cost 1/10 of his resources. Now he needs to expend 1/5 of his spells for the rest.

If the change makes him start the day with 7 or 8 mana, I think he'll be more satisfied when using small spells. Also, he never played RAW, so he can't help but feel nerfed. With that said, he will accept if the intent is to nerf casters.

[mlenser]

Regarding resistance spells: I think the following is a better design than the current augments in Protection from Acid:

Also here is Heal/Healing Word as a variant:

[shemetz]

Yeah, they do look like good fixes. Slightly less elegant than having a single spell but definitely works (and also fixes the weirdness of Healing Word augmenting differently, nice).

[shemetz]

125 does not solve the issue at all. It just moves some resources from short rests to long rests. There would still be 16 utility spells a day.

In a system with #125 the Wizard would have ~9 mana and recover ~4.5 on a each short rest, or about 15-18 mana over a day. Still the same 3x issue.

Why not play around further with the maximum mana and how much is regained on rests? e.g.

• 4th level Wizard starts day with 6 mana
• Wizard regains 2 mana on short rests
• Total mana is now 8-10 (similar to having 4 1st-levels and 2 2nd-levels, ignoring RAW Arcane Recovery)

(My numbers are probably off-balance somehow, I'm just trying to say that changing these two numbers (or adding one more mechanic, e.g. "hit dice for mana") seems to be a pretty easy equation to tinker with)

[mlenser]

He is a spell-only paladin. He had 10 mana before (10th level), so casting bless, daylight, or similar spells would cost 1/10 of his resources. Now he needs to expend 1/5 of his spells for the rest.

In the current system: 1/~27 of his daily resources for 1 bless, or about 4%. 10% of his short rest resources.

In 5 mana it would be: 1/~14 of his daily resources for 1 bless, or about 7%, though 25% of his short rest resources.

If the change makes him start the day with 7 or 8 mana, I think he'll be more satisfied when using small spells. Also, he never played RAW, so he can't help but feel nerfed. With that said, he will accept if the intent is to nerf casters.

If I do #125 then it'd still be about 7% of his daily resources, but he could distribute them better over a day. I think that is a good balace point. What do you think?

[Marcloure]

I'm reading the bits above, and having played this system for quite a while now, I can agree with this statement:

It can make social options trivial due to the amount of utility spells.

One of players can cast Distant Teleport 12 times a day at 4 mana (he's a Sorcerer at 9th level), and that because I'm not considering that distant teleport is one of his signature spells. With the 5 mana limit system, that number would drop to 9, which is still much higher than RAW, but it's limited per short rest.

If I do #125 then it'd still be about 7% of his daily resources, but he could distribute them better over a day. I think that is a good balace point. What do you think?

Yeah, I think that would be good enough. It's not that spells eat a lot of his daily resources, but a lot of his available resources.

[mlenser]

Yeah, they do look like good fixes. Slightly less elegant than having a single spell but definitely works (and also fixes the weirdness of Healing Word augmenting differently, nice).

Variant is much better than an augment if the goal is a 1 mana spell that heals as a bonus action. I do it for almost all of the spell-strike spells and fall back to the 1 mana augment for a bonus action when the variant is too strong.

Variants do not count as a new spell for the purpose of knowing it. If you know the spell then you can cast either variant.

Why not play around further with the maximum mana and how much is regained on rests?

I would turn it around and say why not 5 mana? If the only reason is minute augments then that's not compelling enough vs the other pros, imo.

Why not play around further with the maximum mana and how much is regained on rests?

That wouldn't really solve the issue. It'd still be the same amount of resources a day. Unless you make it less resources per day and then we have to compensate for that by making spells more powerful. Both the current and 5 mana system have it all calculated out.

5 mana:

10 mana:

Besides, if you're giving less resources then that bursts the minute augments goal anyways.