Positioning of Svarita and anudatta in combination with Visarga in Devanagari

sridatta1 commented 5 years ago

Defect Report

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Title

Positioning of Svarita and anudatta in combination with Visarga in Devanagari

Font

NotoSansDevanagari-Regular.otf

Where the font came from, and when

For example: Site:https://github.com/googlefonts/noto-fonts/blob/master/phaseIII_only/unhinted/otf/NotoSansDevanagari/NotoSansDevanagari-Regular.otf Date: 2019-07-07 (preferred format)

Font Version

1.05

Issue

Regarding positioning of vedic marks, wrt visarga. In encoding order/input the vedic svara should come at the end of syllable ( p460 chapter 12.1 of the core specification). But phonetically here the svara/accent/pitch is associated with the vowel, thus graphically the svarita/anudatta mark should note stand above the visarga. The vedic mark should be placed on the previous consonant/vowel.

Observed results Expected results The vedic mark should be placed on/below the previous consonant/vowel.

Additional information

In printed texts,

In a manuscript

Character data

नः॑ यः॑ तः॒ etc.
Visarga at the end of a syllable followed by U+0951 DEVANAGARI STRESS SIGN UDATTA : Vedic tone svarita or U+0952 DEVANAGARI STRESS SIGN ANUDATTA : Vedic tone anudatta

virtualvinodh commented 4 years ago

This issue should ideally be fixed for all Indic scripts that have spacing Anusvara and Visarga and not just for Devanagari.

nizarsq commented 4 years ago

Apparently this issue still reproducible

sridatta1 commented 3 years ago

The fixing of this issue will depend on what encoding order Unicode decides. See http://www.unicode.org/L2/L2021/21054-svara-markers.pdf

vvasuki commented 2 years ago

The fixing of this issue will depend on what encoding order Unicode decides. See http://www.unicode.org/L2/L2021/21054-svara-markers.pdf

https://github.com/harfbuzz/harfbuzz/issues/2017#issuecomment-1046057529 :

Recommendation: There was no consensus to make a change.

simoncozens commented 2 years ago

My understanding of the state of this issue is that

Unicode is going to stick with the current encoding approach (i.e. the text should be नः॑ यः॑ तः॒ and not न॑ः य॑ः त॒ः)
This ends up with the marks attaching to the visarga instead of the base, which is not ideal
Therefore it is the responsibility of the font to reorder the svarita and anudatta before the visarga so that they can be anchored correctly over the base.

If this is correct, then I'll add reordering routines in the font logic. But please let me know which characters should be reordered - just svarita and anudatta? All of the top and bottom vedic tones? (If anyone could put together a list of characters for me that would be helpful.)

vvasuki commented 2 years ago

My understanding of the state of this issue is that

Unicode is going to stick with the current encoding approach (i.e. the text should be नः॑ यः॑ तः॒ and not न॑ः य॑ः त॒ः)

This ends up with the marks attaching to the visarga instead of the base, which is not ideal

Therefore it is the responsibility of the font to reorder the svarita and anudatta before the visarga so that they can be anchored correctly over the base.

Caveats

᳢ to ᳨ of vedic extensions should combine with the visarga itself.

As far as tone marks are concerned, reordering is necessary even with the following

ᳲᳳᳵ ᳶ
ऀ to visarga of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devanagari_(Unicode_block) and their equivalents in other Brahmic scripts (<-- Please note this.)
Perhaps some other signs in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedic_Extensions? (cc @sridatta1 @jamadagni )

If this is correct, then I'll add reordering routines in the font logic. But please let me know which characters should be reordered - just svarita and anudatta? All of the top and bottom vedic tones? (If anyone could put together a list of characters for me that would be helpful.)

Tones

All the vedic tones. Those are

svarita and anudAtta
꣠ to ꣱ of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devanagari_Extended
᳐ to ᳠ of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedic_Extensions
᳸ to ᳹ and ᳴ of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedic_Extensions

These tones are applicable to all brAhmic scripts

I don't know about

꣺ ꣻ᳭ᳺ (cc @sridatta1 @jamadagni )

dscorbett commented 2 years ago

But please let me know which characters should be reordered - just svarita and anudatta? All of the top and bottom vedic tones?

I think it’s everything. Chapter 12 says “In Vedic, vowels are marked for tone, as are certain non-vocalic characters that are syllabified in Vedic recitation (visarga and anusvāra); the tone marks directly follow the vowel or other character that they modify.”

simoncozens commented 1 year ago

I've fixed this, at least for the Visarga and at least for Noto Sans Devanagari. The fix will go out with the next release, which will be hopefully at the end of next month. If there are similar issues in other scripts, please open an issue in the appropriate script's repo.

notofonts / devanagari