Resolve Old Hungarian controversy

[davelab6]

There is some controversy about the way Old Hungarian has been implemented. This issue will track the Noto project's progress on this topic.

[RovasFoundation]

@viktorkiwikovacs

@RovasFoundation @rovasinfo The use of ligature definitions is the only one way to display "q", "w", "y", "x", "dz", "dzs" letters. No one of the large IT companies will push letters inside to the reserved points of Unicode. You know, not only LO can use ligature definitions, it can use more internet browsers, except MS Edge.

Once more ... and again: contemporary Rovas do use all the required letters for a lot of reasons, like compatibility to the Latin-base Hungarian orthography, Latin-Rovas interscription of digital contents, usage of data bases, etc. Thus, not ligatures are the solution but the individual code point. There is no space to bargain about it.

The former administrators of the Unicode standardisation process were not capable to respect these facts. ... not yet. For the time being, the recent standard is still useless and the issues have to be resolved soon, next month, next year, in 5 years... whenever. Until it happens, the contemporary users do not use the Unicode standard, nor anything (e.g. erroneous Noto-font) based on it.

And do not worry about "big IT companies", they do not care about this issue anyway. The main points are the needs of the real user base (not noisy activists, ideologists) and the innovations of the developers: they have already found alternative solutions to most of the recent problems and definitely will solve all the challenges with OR without Unicode, other players.

That's what is called "practical standard" ... try to make your peace with it :)

Please read https://google.com/get/noto/help/faq what is written about Klingon alphabet. @davelab6 As you can read, @RovasFoundation and @rovasinfo don't care what's in the standard, not interested in how to solve the problem.

[viktorkiwikovacs]

@viktorkiwikovacs

I don't understand, why do you talk about modernising of Old Hungarian script, when you talk about that, Khazar leters was the requirement of Carpatian basin's "rovás" Unicode block, which submission was discarsed. Who speaks in Khazar language in the Carpatian basin?

Please take your time to study carefully the history of the standardisation of Rovas - especially as a script family. Yes, this is a serious profession - it will cost you time. Than, you will understand how it works and probably you will be able to ask questions instead of stating nonprofessional opinions and malicious propaganda. As for the Khazar (Khazarization) issue as well, please take your time to make your homework properly.

The same time, I give you a warning: in the Rovas standardisation process, the misuse of the Khazarian issue - so called "Khazarisation attempt" and other calumniations - was precisely documented as extreme politically driven actions by Neonazi and Antisemitic actors. Thus, next occasion you actively refer to these means, you will be reported officially violating the rules of Github.

YOU WRITE ABOUT NEONAZISM? from whom were the Old Hungarian place name tables "Jobbik" ordered?

[viktorkiwikovacs]

@viktorkiwikovacs

@RovasFoundation @rovasinfo The use of ligature definitions is the only one way to display "q", "w", "y", "x", "dz", "dzs" letters. No one of the large IT companies will push letters inside to the reserved points of Unicode. You know, not only LO can use ligature definitions, it can use more internet browsers, except MS Edge.

Once more ... and again: contemporary Rovas do use all the required letters for a lot of reasons, like compatibility to the Latin-base Hungarian orthography, Latin-Rovas interscription of digital contents, usage of data bases, etc. Thus, not ligatures are the solution but the individual code point. There is no space to bargain about it.

The former administrators of the Unicode standardisation process were not capable to respect these facts. ... not yet. For the time being, the recent standard is still useless and the issues have to be resolved soon, next month, next year, in 5 years... whenever. Until it happens, the contemporary users do not use the Unicode standard, nor anything (e.g. erroneous Noto-font) based on it.

And do not worry about "big IT companies", they do not care about this issue anyway.

I don't think. The noto-fonts project was started by Google for developing fonts their opsystems, like Android and Chrome-OS.

The main points are the needs of the real user base (not noisy activists, ideologists) and the innovations of the developers: they have already found alternative solutions to most of the recent problems and definitely will solve all the challenges with OR without Unicode, other players.

That's what is called "practical standard" ... try to make your peace with it :)

Please read https://google.com/get/noto/help/faq what is written about Klingon alphabet. @davelab6 As you can read, @RovasFoundation and @rovasinfo don't care what's in the standard, not interested in how to solve the problem.

[RovasFoundation]

@viktorkiwikovacs

YOU WRITE ABOUT NEONAZISM? from whom were the Old Hungarian place name tables "Jobbik" ordered?

Yes, I warned you about the well documented facts during the Rovas standardisation process where de facto extremist actions, Antisemitic campaign were lead by supporters of Everson. Part of this means was fuelled by the "Khazar" issue.

Once again boy: watch your words!

[viktorkiwikovacs]

@rovasinfo Tamás! 1st submit an application to Unicode, wait for it to be accepted. Then discuss the necessary code overrides with the developers of Google's "Noto-fonts" project.

[viktorkiwikovacs]

@rovasinfo Until your standard change is accepted, you can still apply the ligature definitions.

[twardoch]

1. Please be respectful!

2. As we’ve stated many times, Noto follows Unicode, but allows for additional glyphs like ligatures. But the core character set is what’s in Unicode.

3. The Noto development team is not the right place to raise problems with the Unicode standardization. I realize there may be controversies, but it’s simply pointless to debate this here, because of the simple principle: Noto follows Unicode. If Unicode changes, the Noto team will consider adjusting the fonts.

4. In your discussion here, please stay on topic. As the Noto font developers, we cannot really take any position in a political or ideological conflict. I realize scripts are often connected to group identities, and discussion about history need to happen. But this is not the right place for these discussions — because, except you, nobody is able to distill these discussions! The topic here is whether the Noto Old Hungarian fonts are correctly implementing the Unicode Standard. Also, if some ligatures are on by default but a community agrees that they should be optional (discretionary). Also discussions about a specific shape (form) of particular characters are acceptable.

5. What’s not on topic are discussions about whether the Unicode Standard is correct, whether the encoded character set of Noto Old Hungarian fonts is correct (if that character set follows Unicode). Also, we don’t expect to remove glyphs — but we can implement some glyph forms as stylistic alternates (to accommodate different group conventions), and we can implement some ligatures as discretionary (optional) so they’re not on by default. Accusing each other of Antisemitism and Nazism is also not on topic and not acceptable — this does not help your efforts at all. At some point, if you guys start shouting and throwing insults, everybody will just stop listening.

Thank you.

[davelab6]

Thanks Adam. As I said in May, we will address this, but it will be slow. Nothing changed on our side since then. I'll unlock this issue when we are ready to move forward. I'll also close and lock any other issues opened about Old Hungarian until then.