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NVDA, the free and open source Screen Reader for Microsoft Windows
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Cannot move to start, to end, or to a layout table when "Report layout tables" is unchecked #3140

Closed nvaccessAuto closed 9 years ago

nvaccessAuto commented 11 years ago

Reported by twynn92 on 2013-04-08 06:17

  1. Uncheck "Report layout tables" in the "Browse mode" preferences.
  2. Navigate to this page for an example layout table.
  3. Try to move to the layout table with the quick-nav key T.
  4. Navigate to the table using standard commands (arrowing), then try to move to start/end of table with the quick-nav key (Shift+)comma.

As you notice, the move to start/end of container and moving to table commands don't work, though Alt+CTRL+Arrows still work once in the layout table.

I've tested this with Firefox 19.0 and Internet Explorer 7.

nvaccessAuto commented 10 years ago

Attachment apoteket_ab4.png added by Slavon on 2014-05-25 16:00 Description: http://postnasalbadbreath.weebly.com/

nvaccessAuto commented 11 years ago

Comment 1 by jteh on 2013-04-24 04:09 The inability to navigate to layout tables when that option is disabled is intentional. However, the name of that option is a bit misleading. It should probably be "Include layout tables" or similar, suggesting that they will be excluded completely if disabled.

Would this change address the issue for you?

nvaccessAuto commented 11 years ago

Comment 2 by twynn92 on 2013-04-24 05:38 To be honest, no. I expected this particular feature to be exactly the same as the check boxes in the document formatting settings. In other words, I still want to navigate through layout tables like a table even if the check box is unchecked, as well as move to start, to end, and even move to it with standard quick nav keys. When report layout tables is unchecked, there should be no verbal representation of said element, but all keyboard commands should still work with it, just like disabling the announcing of any other element such as regular tables, links, headings, etc. Just as if you disabled reporting of links, you can still move to links with quick nav, I expect the same to be done with layout tables. Is this an unreasonable request, or was this something that you guys never intended for this feature?

Whatever resolution you think best would be fine with me, as it doesn't bother me per se, though it does get a bit annoying when someone codes a page as a layout table, when it is in actuality a real table. Then again, a quick enabling and disabling of reporting layout tables is easily done.

nvaccessAuto commented 11 years ago

Comment 3 by jteh on 2013-04-24 05:46 I understand your confusion. However, we never intended this to be the same as the document formatting settings. The problem with this idea is that there are a huge number of layout tables out there, sometimes many on a single page. I've even seen data tables where many cells themselves contain layout tables. In Firefox, I'm pretty sure CSS tables count as layout tables. If we do this, quick navigation by table would become fairly useless.

nvaccessAuto commented 11 years ago

Comment 4 by twynn92 on 2013-04-25 00:46 Ah, yes. That makes perfect sense. I guess a resolution to this confusion would be to rename the check box.

The only point of contention I still have is the fact that the move to start/end of a container command won't work when the reporting of layout tables is unchecked. Assuming this command will work in layers, it will move to the end of a list within a list and so on - there should be no problem with modifying the behavior of the check box to allow one to move to start/end of layout tables. The only problem I foresee is that if one had a layout table inside a regular table, the end-user won't know what went wrong when (s)he uses the move to start/end of container command.

As I see it, consistency should prevail here, as one can move by row/column via table navigation (Alt+CTRL+Arrows), so should they be able to move to start/end of a layout table as well. Again, whatever resolution you feel appropriate would be fine. Thank you for addressing this issue.

I only noticed this issue when I created a MathType-generated document, where tables from MS Word were predominantly used. They showed up at a layout table in IE 7, and so if I wanted to skip to the end of said layout table, I had to turn on reporting of layout tables. I found that table navigation worked regardless of the status of the check box.

nvaccessAuto commented 11 years ago

Comment 5 by jteh on 2013-05-03 11:16 Changes: Milestone changed from None to 2013.2

nvaccessAuto commented 11 years ago

Comment 6 by mdcurran on 2013-06-11 05:41 Should we just rename Report Layout Tables to Detect layout tables? Note that the title for the dialog itself does not have the word "report" nor does it suggest that its limited to reporting, although all but one of the checkboxes are to do with reporting. I'm pretty much against having container and table quicknav finding layout tables by default as there are so many.

nvaccessAuto commented 11 years ago

Comment 7 by jteh (in reply to comment 6) on 2013-06-20 01:59 Replying to mdcurran:

Should we just rename Report Layout Tables to Detect layout tables?

I wonder whether it should be "Include layout tables", but I don't really mind.

Note that the title for the dialog itself does not have the word "report" nor does it suggest that its limited to reporting

Right, but the check box label is misleading given that "Report" is fairly specific everywhere else.

I'm pretty much against having container and table quicknav finding layout tables by default as there are so many.

Arguably, it should if detect/include layout tables is enabled, since that option causes them to be treated as normal tables. It definitely shouldn't when that option is disabled.

nvaccessAuto commented 11 years ago

Comment 8 by mdcurran (in reply to comment 7) on 2013-06-20 04:03 Replying to jteh: Errr, my bad... report layout tables is in Browse mode settings, not Document formatting settings. I think this is even better, and therefore I totally agree with your suggestion to rename it to include layout tables.

nvaccessAuto commented 11 years ago

Comment 9 by jteh on 2013-06-26 03:02 Changes: Milestone changed from 2013.2 to next

nvaccessAuto commented 11 years ago

Comment 10 by Michael Curran <mick@... on 2013-07-04 04:06 In [d24a904baa2c9afa5e23ea14eeeb8927f3159973]:

Rename the report layout tables option in the Browse mode settings dialog to Include layout tables, reflecting the fact that it affects more than just reporting. Fixes #3140

Changes: State: closed

nvaccessAuto commented 11 years ago

Comment 11 by mdcurran on 2013-07-04 04:13 Changes: Milestone changed from next to 2013.2