[New build - EXPERIMENTAL] 21w34a: The Fuel Saga #1: the Fuel Menace

[tsunamayo]

This is the first of several updates introducing a key component to the gameplay: Fuel.

New Features:

• Power balance is now computed at the level of each reactor.
• Reactors will consume fuel while producing power.
• Reactors have a built-in small fuel tank (250l for a 1m reactor)
• Tank can now store fuel (1000l per 1m3)
• Pipe can now transport fuel from tanks to reactors when reactors request it.
• Reactors will always try to fill their own internal tank.
• Entity Codex Setting: [Reactor Auto-refill fuel]
• Entity Codex Button: [Refill Tanks]
• You can debug Reactors data by clicking on it while the Link Tool is equiped.
• You can debug Fuel data on Pipes, Tanks and Reactors while a pipe/tank is equiped by looking at it.

State of fuel integration, legacy and creative support: For now this is useless as we dont have yet a way to harvest gas or buy it a stations. While these features are being added and in the sake of legacy and creative play an entity setting has been added: [Reactor Auto-refill fuel]. It will be toggled On for legacy blueprints and also on new ship in creative. You can toggle it Off and use the [Refill Tanks] button if you want to help debug and balance the new fuel system!

A few numbers regarding the current balance:

• A 1m reactor can produce full power for 60 seconds on its interior tank
• A 1m reactor needs a 0.25m pipe connection to be refilled in real time. => those numbers will change depending on community feedback - they are starting figures. Dont yet spend time on retro-fitting your ship for those wanted to do so.

A few words on the behind the scenes: The tech is using data driven design and is multi-threaded so performance should be very good (0 impact in my stress-test) The logic is purely local, so complex piping network will not stress the system.

To be added soon:

• Gas to be harvested
• Refill at stations
• Transparent tanks and pipe, to see the flow live
• Valve to control flow.
• Docking transfert
• Potentially way to increase tank pressure: cryo addon, or COPV tank.

Bugfixes:

4100 RBG gate's off color changed after restart

4132 Issue with copy-paste and link with non-copied children entities

[tsunamayo]

Build is up guys! Still very much wip but the hard part is mostly done (the flow tech).

[tsunamayo]

Also we will balance the thing out so that retro-fitting (for those who want to retro-fit) is manageable. But I feel I need to harvest side of thing first.

[ProPeach]

Super excited for this! The fact that the flow mathematics is already multithreaded is fantastic, I know some were worried about performance in that regard.

How do you want us to give feedback on the fuel values - A Discussions post?

Also just so we can plan a little, did you decide if other blocks like the Lightcruise thruster or the Warp core will require fuel too? And a method to pipe fuel between child entities?

Looking forward to The Fuel Saga #2, Attack of the Pipes!

[BruceLeedleLeedleLeedleLee]

Messed around with it a bit, had to replace some pipes but overall it works so far. My initial reaction is that fuel consumption is way too high without making ships look like water balloons For example the green shuttle i built has like 1600l after a small refit, but its reactors draw 30l/s

[BruceLeedleLeedleLeedleLee]

Also a fuel gauge in the ships HUD, or even as a link for screens would be amazing

[Jorpis-Jorah]

LETSS GOOOOOO!!! SURVIVAL INCOMING!!!!

[Uncle-Ulty]

so, is the ship gonna consume fuel/energy at the same rate moving or idle?

edit: I think the engine's power consumption should change depending on the ship's operation: idle, parking and cruise.

[TIKIRobo]

what about smart reactors that only burn as much fuel as is needed? ie normal reactors burn fuel and make energy 24/7 but smart reactors (which could just be an addon) would change their fuel consumption rates based on how much power is needed

[TIKIRobo]

Also the new "item tube" blocks can't go thru blocks like other pipes can

[ProPeach]

what about smart reactors that only burn as much fuel as is needed? ie normal reactors burn fuel and make energy 24/7 but smart reactors (which could just be an addon) would change their fuel consumption rates based on how much power is needed

imo that "smart" usage should be standard on all reactors, seems much too wasteful otherwise

[tsunamayo]

what about smart reactors that only burn as much fuel as is needed? ie normal reactors burn fuel and make energy 24/7 but smart reactors (which could just be an addon) would change their fuel consumption rates based on how much power is needed

imo that "smart" usage should be standard on all reactors, seems much too wasteful otherwise

So actually all reactor are smart already, they only produce power (and hence consume fuel) when they need to. They will try to fill their capacity, once full they burn nothing. What I need to calibrate is whether things like thruster or weapon consume their baseline power all the time or only when being used. Both have their pros and cons:

• baseline power: convenient as the player can know their reserve of fuel will last a consistent amount of time.
• only when being used: make reserve of fuel much tricker to understand. Also make power balance much tricker to balance (as it wont show up in the stats). On the other side what prevent players from deactivating system manually when not needed? => whats your take on that guys?

[TIKIRobo]

I do like the idea of manual deactivation being "necessary", its much cooler than just being able to leave your ship on

[tsunamayo]

Super excited for this! The fact that the flow mathematics is already multithreaded is fantastic, I know some were worried about performance in that regard.

How do you want us to give feedback on the fuel values - A Discussions post?

Also just so we can plan a little, did you decide if other blocks like the Lightcruise thruster or the Warp core will require fuel too? And a method to pipe fuel between child entities?

Looking forward to The Fuel Saga #2, Attack of the Pipes!

So mini thruster wont require anything for sure, but I would like light cruise to require it too. I want a bit of feedback on the current system to see how much I will extend it. For children entity I guess we could "plug" pipes onto each base to get a connection.

[tsunamayo]

Messed around with it a bit, had to replace some pipes but overall it works so far. My initial reaction is that fuel consumption is way too high without making ships look like water balloons For example the green shuttle i built has like 1600l after a small refit, but its reactors draw 30l/s

@BruceLeedleLeedleLeedleLee okay could you send me the refitted version? Yeah I think it will too high at first, but I also want to introduce way to store gas more efficiently:

• gas with a better density
• cryo-tank (or a cryo-addon), where you will trade off a bit of power efficiency (as it will draw power) for space efficiency.
• maybe higher density tank too (like a COPV), to be crafted with higher tier resources like carbon.

[ProPeach]

What I need to calibrate is whether things like thruster or weapon consume their baseline power all the time or only when being used.

Weapons, shields etc only draining when used makes the most sense to me, it'd be odd to find your weapons using lots of power even when not in use. I think Elite does this, and has different values for peak and idle power consumption that help the player plan their power usage.

@BruceLeedleLeedleLeedleLee okay could you send me the refitted version? Yeah I think it will too high at first, but I also want to introduce way to store gas more efficiently:

It's not the one you asked for, but I included a bp of the Mistral in issue #4141 that easily shows the reactor and fuel tanks for a ship that size. The fuel usage at the moment is far too much in my opinion too even with better fuel storage options (COPVs sound great!), the Mistral might be a nice baseline to help balance things out

[MrSquid1]

Super excited for this, allthough you might want to change the 1000l/block for tons, also what about a fuel tank block and an afterburning mode for engines?

[TIKIRobo]

Super excited for this, allthough you might want to change the 1000l/block for tons, also what about a fuel tank block and an afterburning mode for engines?

there already is a fuel tank block

[nokturnihs]

So EVERY ship will now require fuel (once harvesting/etc is done)? No nuclear reactors or batteries and the like? We can defy the law of relativity and create ring worlds but still need a chevron or we're boned?

when it was originally proposed as just for lightcruise/warp that was cool. Now that it's on the Reactors? Hmm...

[ProPeach]

So EVERY ship will now require fuel (once harvesting/etc is done)? No nuclear reactors or batteries and the like? We can defy the law of relativity and create ring worlds but still need a chevron or we're boned?

when it was originally proposed as just for lightcruise/warp that was cool. Now that it's on the Reactors? Hmm...

I thought it was always slated to be used on reactors? "Reactor" and "fuel" are just generic names for now, as I understand it there will be multiple types of fuel and perhaps different reactors. A nuclear reactor is just a reactor and fuel, not sure where there difference is gameplaywise between that and this system.

I believe batteries will also be an option yeah, so you can charge a vehicle up at a station that uses fuel or solar panels etc and then fly it around without a tank.

[tsunamayo]

So EVERY ship will now require fuel (once harvesting/etc is done)? No nuclear reactors or batteries and the like? We can defy the law of relativity and create ring worlds but still need a chevron or we're boned?

when it was originally proposed as just for lightcruise/warp that was cool. Now that it's on the Reactors? Hmm...

@nokturnihs I want to add other type of reactor down the line. Nuclear reactor will be much bigger and higher tier though. I have got to start somewhere. It will be introduce for lightcruise soon. I want to add solar panel too.

@ProPeach Right now I have a design issue with battery, they are redundant with fuel tank...

[tsunamayo]

@BruceLeedleLeedleLeedleLee So I have just fixed a few issue regarding consumption, it was much higher than indeed depending on your setup. I am pushing the build soon.

[TIKIRobo]

ProPeach Right now I have a design issue with battery, they are redundant with fuel tank

Not at all, with batteries you would be able to use solar panels effectively and they would generate less heat than reactors making them better for drones/small ships

[nokturnihs]

So EVERY ship will now require fuel (once harvesting/etc is done)? No nuclear reactors or batteries and the like? We can defy the law of relativity and create ring worlds but still need a chevron or we're boned? when it was originally proposed as just for lightcruise/warp that was cool. Now that it's on the Reactors? Hmm...

@nokturnihs I want to add other type of reactor down the line. Nuclear reactor will be much bigger and higher tier though. I have got to start somewhere. It will be introduce for lightcruise soon. I want to add solar panel too.

@ProPeach Right now I have a design issue with battery, they are redundant with fuel tank...

Wouldn't a Nuclear Reactor be the bottom of the tiers? Everything we know about theoretically bypassing the law of relativity requires more power we can currently generate/store/utilize in a million nuclear reactors. In addition to this we use nuclear reactors in MOST spacecraft or a combination of solar/batteries. Either solution won't get you (ever) anywhere near the speed of light but it would certainly (and does certainly) get us around the solar system fairly easily. We mostly use fuel in space to break orbit and change direction (using propellent in many cases - which could be as easy as water for fuel).

My main concern is you've added a heat mechanic and now fuel requirements and between the two of them you're boxing out anything like a small craft (as well as reducing build options/diversity). They'll compound each other in harmful ways (build big or heat > need more machines that add heat to deal with fuel > need more fuel the bigger the ship is > ???)

Maybe I missed something and you're scrapping the heat mechanic? Or are the fuel systems "heat weightless"?

I realize that most of the "Space survival" games utilize a fuel mechanic but frankly the way they've been implemented doesn't typically make a heck of a lot of sense when you take in the basic fact of "Hey, We've escaped our home solar system using FTL/jump/wormhole technology" and breaking FTL would trivialize all our current power needs (which basic manuevers, life support systems, lights, moving gears and the like are). The same power used to move out past the black could solve our planet's power supply issues without breaking a sweat unless you're talking about some kind of single-use exotic material to create the Warp field/wormhole/Jump.

At the end of the day - starship EVO requires fuel? okay. Just do something to maintain build freedom and diversity.

[cloudrambler]

At the end of the day - starship EVO requires fuel? okay. Just do something to maintain build freedom and diversity.

There are still multiple other dimensions to consider besides fuel, heat, and ship size. Speed, manoeuvrability, range, system density, durability, aesthetic bias, all affect the need for power transfer for a given ship mass. Different ship types will experience the design constraints in different ways. I'm sure if all ships ended up underpowered then that would be an easily agreed change; so far Tsuna has impressed us with good decisions that are often novel and brave, but also make sense for a workable and scalable game.

Existing "reactors" have their own internal fuel supply, which (after adjustment) should let a small fighter fly around for a few minutes without a fuel tank. That seems fair and then justifies the existence of support ships. Want to fly longer unsupported, then you have to compromise your ship and have lower weapons density or go without shields and rely on freedom of movement. Ultimately the ships with relatively large fuel tanks will be designed for long distance, so your big engine freighters and deep space explorers.

Personally I think the competitive challenge will be MORE interesting and MORE rewarding given some decent technical constraints that overlap. If you could build anything you want then there is no challenge. Plus Tsuna has already said that he wants to leave some aspects of environmental tuning to server moderators, so I expect there will be an option to disable fuel requirements for those who just want to make beautiful but technically unfeasible creations.

[nokturnihs]

At the end of the day - starship EVO requires fuel? okay. Just do something to maintain build freedom and diversity.

There are still multiple other dimensions to consider besides fuel, heat, and ship size. Speed, manoeuvrability, range, system density, durability, aesthetic bias, all affect the need for power transfer for a given ship mass. Different ship types will experience the design constraints in different ways. I'm sure if all ships ended up underpowered then that would be an easily agreed change; so far Tsuna has impressed us with good decisions that are often novel and brave, but also make sense for a workable and scalable game.

Existing "reactors" have their own internal fuel supply, which (after adjustment) should let a small fighter fly around for a few minutes without a fuel tank. That seems fair and then justifies the existence of support ships. Want to fly longer unsupported, then you have to compromise your ship and have lower weapons density or go without shields and rely on freedom of movement. Ultimately the ships with relatively large fuel tanks will be designed for long distance, so your big engine freighters and deep space explorers.

Personally I think the competitive challenge will be MORE interesting and MORE rewarding given some decent technical constraints that overlap. If you could build anything you want then there is no challenge. Plus Tsuna has already said that he wants to leave some aspects of environmental tuning to server moderators, so I expect there will be an option to disable fuel requirements for those who just want to make beautiful but technically unfeasible creations.

By "technically unfeasible creations" do you mean ships that constantly consume fuel to run despite the fact that every ounce of fuel increases the cost to move said ship exponentially anywhere near the speed of light - like the big problem we face now? General relativity and Einstein type limits.

Also about the term competitive - I don't play many competitive games because frankly people on the Internet make it hard to enjoy those kinds of games. The games I DO play that are competitive are typically not games I would invest hundreds of hours (or dozens even) building a ship to have it ganked as soon as I leave the "safe zone". I understand some people are into this (EVE online and Elite has it's fans) but if I play STEVO with people at all it would likely be cooperatively.

One last note is Tsuna says this isn't a survival game - more of a space opera. If you've watched one of the most famous space operas there's not a single shot of fuel gauges or any direct references I can remember talking about fuel. Cortosis, building materials, illicit drugs, ancient lost technology, etc are the big "chase items" in most of that galaxy's cinematic universe (and a large portion of it's gaming universe as well).

Just thought I'd point that out.

[cloudrambler]

By "technically unfeasible creations" do you mean ships that constantly consume fuel to run despite the fact that every ounce of fuel increases the cost to move said ship exponentially anywhere near the speed of light - like the big problem we face now? General relativity and Einstein type limits.

If I was THAT hung up on hard sci-fi I would be making my own space sim (which is what I was planning to do before I found STEVO), and it would not include FTL travel. No, what I mean is that if you want to make ship models that are mainly artistic and not worry about imposed functional rules, then I expect there will be ways to accomplish that. When we do want to follow the functional rules for the sake of some immersion, we still have to acknowledge that any possible interpretation of physics that is fun to play with will be very different from the reality that we presently understand. As long as we are OK with that departure, then we may as well set the constraints at a level where we can do all the cool stuff, but we must keep an element of challenge.

Building a fantasy universe in which the laws of physics conveniently bent is not the same as having no laws, because ALL games have to have constraints, even if they are completely arbitrary. No game is fun with all the cheats turned on from day one.

Also about the term competitive - I don't play many competitive games because frankly people on the Internet make it hard to enjoy those kinds of games. The games I DO play that are competitive are typically not games I would invest hundreds of hours (or dozens even) building a ship to have it ganked as soon as I leave the "safe zone". I understand some people are into this (EVE online and Elite has it's fans) but if I play STEVO with people at all it would likely be cooperatively.

Agree 100% on this. I gave up on Elite as the Dev's were clearly inept at dealing with simple game balancing defects. What I meant by competitive challenge still applies for all types of play, not just PvP. For solo players, it may be gaining a certain game objective in the fastest time. For builders, it could be having a ship to enter into a workshop contest, where the judging criteria include performance attributes etc. Even for cooperative players, it would be fun to race and challenge each other. However you play the game, you will have some challenging objective, and fuel just adds depth to that.

One last note is Tsuna says this isn't a survival game - more of a space opera. If you've watched one of the most famous space operas there's not a single shot of fuel gauges or any direct references I can remember talking about fuel. Cortosis, building materials, illicit drugs, ancient lost technology, etc are the big "chase items" in most of that galaxy's cinematic universe (and a large portion of it's gaming universe as well).

Actually I disagree on this one, although I'm far from a subject expert. What is a "hyperdrive compressor" compressing, if not fuel? Coaxium may be more of a catalyst, but still seems to be produced in fuel like quantities. Tie-fighters get plugged in to charge up, and star destroyers have parabolic rocket nozzles that produce thrust from an expanding reaction gas. That famous space opera does not consider the subject of fuel an interesting topic for dialogue or plot, but the technologies to utilise it are in clear display. Again there is no plausible interpretation of physics that draws these features together, but the artists certainly considered that such features were part of the theme.

[AnunnakiNibiru]

We need to clarify the facts: Even the energy of many stars does not cover the need to "curve space" or reach the speed of light in this space-time of ours. And even if they do, even the theoretical speed of light will not allow us in a reasonable time (a few minutes, hours or days in the game) to reach other stars. It is necessary to find an alternative more realistic compromise.

So let's divide the engines to 2 types:

1. Slower Than Light engines, shortly "STL"

2. Faster Than Light engines, shortly "FTL"

3. STL engines are then further divided into: 1a. Electric or Electrochemical (plasma/ion) = have low power impulse but very low energy consumption and can therefore increase speed for long time, to reach fastest possible (still slower than light) speeds. 2b. Chemical combustion = have high impulse power but high fuel consumption, therefore can not run for very long, creates heat also. STL engines would have a maximum theoretical speed of 0.999 light speed, while their consumption would be exponential speed as well as a multiple of the ship's weight.

4. FTL engines: ideally a WARP generator and WARP coils (or just WARP coils) swept across the boat. Huge electricity consumption. They do not move the ship in space at all, they compress the space-time in front of the ship. Possibility to represent WARP coils as "spheres", which in the design of the ship we must place so, that the whole ship is covered (located inside spheres). Due to the huge power consumption, it need to be added something like an electric capacitor for WARP coils consumption. The question is whether the capacitor would be charged by WARP generator or a by classic electricity generator. In short, the FTL engines would have a specified force immediately after squeezing, for example 100x (ie it would still not move the ship in space) and its consumption of eletricity from charged capacitator would be constant throughout the activation. Furthermore, the consumption would not depend on the weight of the ship but on the size of the surface of the ship (or the size of the surfaces of the balls of the WARP coils together). That brings more decision for ship creators: How much "WARP coils" I need to cover my ship? (uncovered parts would be damaged in FTL speeds). How much strong/force should "WARP generator" creatate? 100x 1000x 10000x? How big "Capacitator" I need to sustain "FTL" going?

And the FTL movement itself would work as a multiplication: STL speed times FTL force. If I have a STL with a speed of 0.0 and an FTL with a power of 1000x, my speed is 0x the speed of light (not moving at all). If I have a STL with a speed of 0.5 and an FTL with a power of 100x, my speed is 50x the speed of light. If I have a STL with a speed of 0.2 and an FTL with a power of 1000x, my speed is 200x the speed of light.

This would lead to 2 things:

1. The design of the ship would be at least partially (to make the ship effective) adapt to the location of the WARP coils.
2. It then makes more sense to consider whether to put more STL engines on board for better maneuverability in combat or in orbit, or more powerful WARP coils for faster movement between the stars, to find best balance (max speeds) for that ship.

This system would bring more interesting possibilities and the creation of more efficient and well-thought-out ship designs into the game (to achieve greater speed or better maneuverability), etc.

Finally, developers could create 2 game modes:

1. Arcade (little fuel consumption, engines 100x more powerful, no increase consumption from mass or surface of the ship)
2. Survival (you better check fuel tanks, energy generator and batteries, cooling exchangers and etc... ) to be sure, that your ship is capable to reach destination star.
3. My name is THE Q (all cheats on, debug and gamemaster/admin/developer consoles always open ...)