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vatesfr / xen-orchestra

The global orchestration solution to manage and backup XCP-ng and XenServer.
https://xen-orchestra.com
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Permanent banner when running XOA from the sources #4175

Closed FoxieHazmat closed 5 years ago

FoxieHazmat commented 5 years ago

Context

Expected behavior

Current behavior

Just updated to 5.34. Can't disable the banner notification? Whats up with that? I am sure everyone who manually builds XOA understands the risks; there are warnings everywhere. I am all for that, but hurting the usability of the software because people won't/can't purchase support? Not FOSS, not cool.

Referring To - "[XO] Add banner for sources users to clarify support conditions #4165 (PR #4167)" In the changelog

olivierlambert commented 5 years ago

Hi!

Thanks for your feedback. However, usability isn't hurt because you can just scroll to get it rid from your field of vision. Also, we had to put this because we had more and more people coming to us on various channels expecting a level of support we couldn't provide outside a tested/validated platform (XOA).

This caused a visible impact on our developers availability to actually work on the project itself.

lastdeadmouse commented 5 years ago

Having the banner is fine, but not being able to remove it is what's not cool. At best, it's a half baked addition to help limit the workload of the devs. At worst, it's an annoyance designed to compel users to purchase support.

If I build from source, I know support isn't provided, and not having that banner never indicated to me that it was.

lastdeadmouse commented 5 years ago

Context

  • XO origin: the sources

  • Versions:

    • xo-web: 5.40
    • xo-server: 5.40

Expected behavior

Current behavior

Just updated to 5.40. Can't disable the banner notification? Whats up with that? I am sure everyone who manually builds XOA understands the risks; there are warnings everywhere. I am all for that, but hurting the usability of the software because people won't/can't purchase support? Not FOSS, not cool.

Referring To - "[XO] Add banner for sources users to clarify support conditions #4165 (PR #4167)" In the changelog

If you want to remove it, thankfully this is open source. Remove:

` {+process.env.XOA_PLAN === 5 && (

{_('disclaimerText3')} 
          )}`

from /opt/xen-orchestra/packages/xo-web/src/xo-app/index.js and yarn, yarn build.

FoxieHazmat commented 5 years ago

Yea you (barely )beat me to it. HERE is a script I just finished up to remove it.

olivierlambert commented 5 years ago

Having the banner is fine, but not being able to remove it is what's not cool. At best, it's a half baked addition to help limit the workload of the devs. At worst, it's an annoyance designed to compel users to purchase support.

  1. No it's not. You can't force user to take support, and there's no point that a banner will change this. Also paid XOA's aren't targeting home users because we don't even sell to private individuals. So this accusation isn't applicable.

If I build from source, I know support isn't provided, and not having that banner never indicated to me that it was.

  1. Maybe you know this, but not the number of people contacting us. This also affect the product perception, when people got issues on critical features like backups, mainly due to the result of a large number of source installs done without even reading the official doc on how to install it from the sources, but using 3rd party scripts (or Docker repo), which also cause problems when we change some components, adding some support burden.

We added this in plain sight (it's even in the changelog) so please stop to think it's an evil move. Especially when it's something that's one line you can remove easily or even just scroll to make it disappear. So this is really to tell the majority of users we can't assist if they don't dig a bit before adopting the product.

Jarli01 commented 5 years ago

If you've used my script to install from, this change has been removed as well pending further testing. The support clause is very clear and the end user should know who to go to when looking for assistance, but it is annoying.

@olivierlambert keep up the great work, amazing product.

olivierlambert commented 5 years ago

Thanks @Jarli01

Also I'm closing the issue but keep the discussion open.

Just know that's hard to find a balance between getting everyone happy using it for free while having 6 full time devs to pay, plus having a flat and cheap pricing for companies. I really wonder how a few pixels height banner could prevent you to use the software.

I think the main disagreement is the level of annoyance caused by this message. IMHO, it's nothing for a basic usage: if you want basic features for free (like XenCenter) without the banner, XOA Free exists. If you want all features for free, then you are doing backup and schedule advanced stuff, where a banner can't hurt the usability at all.

So @FoxieHazmat and @lastdeadmouse I'd really like to know if it's a real usage problem for you, or just a question of principle (which is fine, but I need to understand what's the real issue for you, and really I'm open to hear anything)

edit: I'm also open to suggestions to find something that's fine for everyone :+1:

Jarli01 commented 5 years ago

So something I'd be cool with (from a dev perspective of I took your code and scripted it would be an information tab (maybe even from the "No Support" that can be enabled on XOA for use to point people to the appropriate GitHub/GitLab repo.

So that rather than saying "No Support" it'd say something like "Community Support" with a clickable page that could be filled in relatively easily by people like me to point people to create their issues on those separate GH/GL repos first before hitting up the XO Dev team.

Jarli01 commented 5 years ago

Figuring out a way to drive people to the appropriate place, especially in the case of I used this install script and now I'm having an issue is the bigger part.

Right now the about page directs people to https://xen-orchestra.com/forum/ and https://github.com/vatesfr/xen-orchestra/issues/new

Maybe us just changing or having a point of reference to change that content would be good?

FoxieHazmat commented 5 years ago

Also paid XOA's aren't targeting home users because we don't even sell to private individuals.

So you are punishing the majority of homelabbers, who literally cannot pay for support, for the small amount of businesses who are careless and ignorant?

Maybe you know this, but not the number of people contacting us.

I would say it is impossible for anyone to find XenOrchestra, decide to go the 'from the sources' route and compile it, without seeing that it isn't an officially supported medium. Which means that if they are going to ignore the warnings on the site, Github repo, and the pop-up on every first login of XOA, they are going to ignore the banner as well.

We added this in plain sight (it's even in the changelog) so please stop to think it's an evil move.

I don't see this as a valid argument, sorry. Micro$oft is pretty clear about its data collection on w10, still evil. Not meaning to be rude here, and I wouldn't call this and evil move but it is the banner that is the issue, not the way it was merged into the source and announced.

I'd really like to know if it's a real usage problem for you, or just a question of principle

I would say both.

  1. Principle wise: It is a big eye sore for anyone using the sources, as open source should be. We don't want/ cannot afford/ aren't able to purchase the support and are willing to take the risk for it. Whether or not you see it this way, but it kinda implies that you are making it awkward on purpose to drive people to the support version or sacrifice usability to revert to the free edition.

  2. Usability wise, All of XOA's website is scaled to the window's/ screen's resolution. except for the banner. So now depending on where my cursor is, it will scroll in a different spot. I frequently check the stats on my phone when I am not near a computer. The mobile scaling can be clunky at times so this just adds another layer of things I have to fiddle with.

You guys are currently doing amazing work bringing Xen management to every device. I understand it is a balancing act when trying to run a business but reminding non-paid users they aren't giving you money no matter what they are doing isn't the way to go IMO, but I think that answer is going to be different for every person.

@Jarli01 I appreciate it. Interested to see how you handle it.

olivierlambert commented 5 years ago

@Jarli01 I think that might be an interesting thing:

  1. Adding part of the text with "community support"
  2. Ask 3rd party scripts to link toward their GH repo for any issue report, avoiding useless issue triage caused by a script issue
olivierlambert commented 5 years ago

@FoxieHazmat

We are not punishing anyone, it's a banner, not a feature removal. I still don't get why you see a banner you can scroll down as a punishment, really? Don't you think it's a bit of overreacting?

  1. Again, we disagree: how this banner is a "sacrifice" about usability? Seriously?
  2. This is a more valid argument and THAT kind of thing can make us change our mind.

That's why I'd like to have a "depassionate" discussion about this, so technical arguments are able to make us change our mind, not just complaining for complaining :wink:

I'll see for adding maybe a small cross to close the message.

Jarli01 commented 5 years ago

So just for a test, I just changed the bug tracker to point directly to my GH page for issues/new and it worked just find.

I'm find with making this change on my script, but I also don't want to stop legitimate bugs from making it to your team.

olivierlambert commented 5 years ago

You could always do the triage and then send people after initial report :) In a way, your own report will be probably more relevant because of your XO knowledge and then lead to faster bug resolution!

Jarli01 commented 5 years ago

@FoxieHazmat how did you build specifically, did you use a script (like the one from my GH) or did you follow the direct build process from the XO website?

Which, of course anyone using the direct build process would forever have to deal with the bar/close out.

Jarli01 commented 5 years ago

You could always do the triage and then send people after initial report :) In a way, your own report will be probably more relevant because of your XO knowledge and then lead to faster bug resolution!

I try, surprisingly there haven't been ANY reported issues on my GH at all recently. No new issues reported to me. Since all my script does is automate your install process most of the time the issues resolve around NPM issues.

Which 19.04 has some and I made a issue about it on my GH lol. . .

olivierlambert commented 5 years ago

@Jarli01 it could change if you modify the link/banner content or add some links into your build, don't you think? Obviously, people tend to think your script is official or something like that, so we got them directly in forum or GH (or even our livechat on xen-orchestra.com…)

Also I'd like to thank you all for the discussion, as you can see the goal here is to find the best solution for everyone, there is no definitive choice!

Jarli01 commented 5 years ago

And that's what I'm considering, but I also don't want to remove YOU as a support option, but would be happy to drive people to the appropriate place first.

Which @FoxieHazmat and @lastdeadmouse we kind of need to know, how did you install?

olivierlambert commented 5 years ago

@Jarli01 fair point. Maybe add a link to community support pointing to you as first responder and having a link for people who want profesionnal support pointing to us (ie XO website)? At least something like that in the principle, what do you think?

FoxieHazmat commented 5 years ago

@olivierlambert Don't get me wrong, I'm not going to stop using your software, nor am I tilted at all about this. I just think that it is a silly way to address a bigger problem. Sorry if I am coming off heated or offended..

I mean, there is already a 'No Support' orange button on the toolbar, what is the banner doing that that doesn't?

Perhaps let that orange button become a place where users can hit the xoa(Now xcp-ng/xoa I think?) forums as well as a place to have people who make these install and update scripts implement their own troubleshooting/ bug report avenues.

Jarli01 commented 5 years ago

I wouldn't be opposed to it, but I'd also like to avoid making customization's post install, because my script literally follows your process.

The difference being that people can use just about any OS so it isn't a controlled system. So if there was a simple option in the about page that could get filled in post install via sed us script-kiddies I'd be okay with that.

Jarli01 commented 5 years ago

@FoxieHazmat can you answer my question?

FoxieHazmat commented 5 years ago

Oh sorry, yes I learned how to do it completely manually so I am semi savvy with troubleshooting but I typically use your script just because its easier. Why reinvent the wheel.

olivierlambert commented 5 years ago

@FoxieHazmat just to give you some figures:

So there is a very tangible difference between the 2. As I said, we'll try to find a middle ground solution

Jarli01 commented 5 years ago

@olivierlambert to ask, if someone used the SLI process you have listed, does that version have the banner?

olivierlambert commented 5 years ago

SLI process?

Jarli01 commented 5 years ago

Single line installation (from the hypervisor console)

olivierlambert commented 5 years ago

Deploy script is deploying XOA Free, which get the updater and QA (but with limited features, so there far less support generated on it, it's like a "XenCenter" like). So you don't have the "from the sources" banner because it's not installed from the sources :)

Jarli01 commented 5 years ago

Okay so the options as far as I can see is either you add "Community Support" area somehow, at least with my script I could sed the change into the Bug Tracker for the attached image or something else.

But that would only affect people who use my script and not everyone else who may use something else or literally build from source.

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Jarli01 commented 5 years ago

And while I agree that, there is no great option here and I'm happy to help where I can. Of course being the development head, it would be beneficial to keep you involved, even if remotely. (Does that make sense).

olivierlambert commented 5 years ago

I think the link here is a good idea and a good start. I'll probably talk with other 3rd party installer providers to ask for a similar thing :+1:

The idea (in the end) is to reduce the triage for issues not related to XO itself but the environment.

FoxieHazmat commented 5 years ago

I am going to argue that the banner clicks are merely because it is a new button.. Who doesn't upgrade something and then check out the new features? I am curious to see analytics after a month when everyone is used to the banner.

I have never reached out to XOA support so I could be being ignorant here: but I know with the free version there is a required registration inside XOA but not when you are from the sources, could you force users to login with that account before they can support a ticket?

Perhaps a ui color change? XOA red for supported installs and the blue for source installs (bc it matches the blue logo on your repo.)

What about changing the versioning scheme? 5.40-F (free), 5.40-S (support), etc and force a full version to be given with every ticket/chat window.

Jarli01 commented 5 years ago

No, versioning changes aren't an option and are just a bad idea in general. What should occur is the types of changes like I've put into the install on my local installation here.

Color changes also don't make sense. The issue that @olivierlambert has is there are a lot of people who are going to @olivierlambert for assistance with things like "How do I install this" when they shouldn't be, unless in the explicit case of "Installing from source" by following his documentation.

Which they should be able to read and do, if not maybe @olivierlambert you should point people to a GH repo you prefer for the installation process and start calling it something like "XenOrchestra Community Edition preferred installation"

Where the dev of that GH repo can make these changes and ensure that people are driven to the correct location for 1st tier support issues.

olivierlambert commented 5 years ago

@FoxieHazmat

  1. So we could wait a bit to see the trend and decide with metrics, right?
  2. XOA Free: registration is not "required" but without it, you lost one of the obvious benefit of it: one click updates from the updater. Also, we don't have any support issue with XOA Free, it's even the opposite: if there is a problem with XOA Free, it means QA missed it (on this controlled environments) and it means it will affect everyone (also those from the sources). That's why it's important for us to keep a XOA at Free level. So there's no issue with XOA Free support. The issue is for people using 3rd party installers then report issues and/or expect a support from us on something we don't have control on (vs XOA), spamming the devs for issue triage that could be avoided if they clearly understood what to expect (which is clear for you doesn't mean it's the case for others). I would say it's the "price" to pay when you have a tool that could be installed with 3rd party script without any knowledge: more easy to install without understand anything on how it works. It's fine for a controlled env (XOA), less for people using various distro (and versions), leading to every kind of issues. That's the problem of software running on premise anyway… (we wouldn't have a problem if we were doing SaaS :laughing: )

@Jarli01 but we already got one central point to tell people how to install it: our doc. But a lot of people are using Docker/3rd party scripts without even reading our doc on how to install it. What could we do then except advertising inside XO itself?

Jarli01 commented 5 years ago

@Jarli01 but we already got one central point to tell people how to install it: our doc. But a lot of people are using Docker/3rd party scripts without even reading our doc on how to install it. What could we do then except advertising inside XO itself?

So for this part that is why I'm thinking if you can say for a fact that people are reporting that my GH is the cause of your bane, to solidify that script as the "preferred" or even "beta" channel and say If reading is to flipping difficult here is a script, if you need assistance please speak with them first. 😆

Of course, that only would address the 1 script (if you chose 1 script) and not the who knows how many others that exist.

olivierlambert commented 5 years ago

Can you rephrase @Jarli01 I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean, sorry (I'm exhausted today so it doesn't help me :D )

Jarli01 commented 5 years ago

If you pick one of the many scripts that exist, and tag it as the "we'd prefer if you used this 3rd party install script" it would remove a lot of the random issues.

That script and dev could work with you to make changes to things like the support link for issues on the bug tracker.

olivierlambert commented 5 years ago

I'm not sure I want to do this. Because then we'll rely on someone outside XO devs to maintain an installer script.

edit: there isn't hundreds of popular 3rd party scripts, so it will just require that I contact them and ask kindly to modify some links to reduce our support burden that's not directly connected to XO itself :+1:

Jarli01 commented 5 years ago

@olivierlambert that I thought about as well, but the alternative is you have a million scripts, none marked as better than the others and millions of people all going to your team looking for help as a first channel.

olivierlambert commented 5 years ago

You posted after my edit, I would say 3 most popular scripts will cover probably 80%+ of the issues :)

FoxieHazmat commented 5 years ago

So we could wait a bit to see the trend and decide with metrics, right?

Instead on deciding on metrics, wait to decide on if this banner fixes the root problem.

If you adopted an 'official' outside script that would be community backed, it would not only be centralized and easy to point to in XOA, but it would be off your shoulders. Then the 80%+ of the manual build issues are going to grow to 99%+ of those issues because if there was an official avenue they would utilize that rather than building it themselves or looking for a script themselves.

I can't say I would be much help, but I would volunteer to help people in that community, if it existed.

I understand that a community currently exists but obviously it isn't being used.

Jarli01 commented 5 years ago

@FoxieHazmat my script is one of the heaviest used for this project.

We could use all of the support you had to offer.

Jarli01 commented 5 years ago

I understand that a community currently exists but obviously it isn't being used.

The issue as I see from a "I'm a part of the problem" is that support cost a lot of money, and FOSS software can only offer so much support. Edit: Or to get people who use a script to go to those script authors /Edit @olivierlambert needs to get the people who've scripted to offer more support for their portion of it, so the product can continue to grow.

The forums should still be used, but as a secondary issue.

IE I made an issue here, and those devs think it's an upstream issue, can Vatesfs take a look and see if it is?

Jarli01 commented 5 years ago

The one thing I see as an issue @olivierlambert is even if people install from source, the support channel is you and no one else.

If you're stating you can't offer support for that route at all then there is a bit of an issue as that is the official "build it yourself route".

FoxieHazmat commented 5 years ago

We could use all of the support you had to offer.

I'd love to! Yours has been my preferred script to use. Perhaps the key to growing and becoming adopted by all is good support. I will do what I can.

Have you considered adding a line in your scripts' READMEs to help direct installing and updating questions and issues to your GH first to try and intercept? As @olivierlambert said it may not be obvious to everyone else.

Jarli01 commented 5 years ago

I haven't but if you'd like to create a PR for them I'd be happy to review and accept the changes if they make sense. :-)

olivierlambert commented 5 years ago

@Jarli01 it's not an issue if people follow our official doc in details and install it manually, because it means:

So in theory, the main "problem" is people without enough knowledge using 3rd party scripts in general.

I think we got a good base of thinking thanks to this conversation, so I'll gather XO team ASAP and discuss about the options.

lastdeadmouse commented 5 years ago

Perhaps it would be better to replace the "No Support" with a "Community Support" link to a dedicated sub forum for XO from sources. No support is easy enough to ignore, but "Click here for support" may direct users to more appropriate channels. The banner on install, even upgrade, would be fine with me as long as there were an option to disable it.

Ezka77 commented 5 years ago

Salut,

may be late but I was thinking that's great to have a CE packaged by your community as 3rd party scripts ! It provides a quite large diffusion and offer choices for sys. op. to test, try, and adopt your app. But I think something is missing : add the ability to install your "turn key appliance" from the CE version.

See, if someone want to test your app I don't know if he is willing to run a script on his cluster 🤣 even if you says "It's ok it will not harm anything". But if he start by using Docker, or a 3rd party install script and if a way to push the XO Free version to his cluster is provided by the app may be it will be easiest to switch from the CE to the official appliance right after his tests (and avoid any issues related to a clumsy CE packaged version).

This way no need to say "Hey ! No support here !" on the CE version but just "You have an issue ? First check the XOA Free version: it's one click".

olivierlambert commented 5 years ago

@Ezka77 I totally agree and that's why we have a web deploy solution integrated in XCP-ng 8.0 default HTML UI (see https://xcp-ng.org/forum/post/11993)

We don't want to support a Docker version right now, that's why we pushed for an easier deploy that doesn't require typing a command in a shell. Note that we'll also have a deploy directly from the web browser just by visiting a page on xen-orchestra.com, helping again to get very very easy XOA to test.