Create NodeJS web apps faster with less energy

[LarryBattle]

The header for http://railwayjs.com/ says Create NodeJS web apps faster with more energy It sounds like if I try harder I can develop faster, which isn't a benefit.

Try this instead. Create NodeJS web apps faster with less energy

[1602]

Thanks. Basically it was just a parody on joke: "Drink coffee, do stupid things faster with more energy". I think we should come up with something completely different.

On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 8:35 PM, Larry Battle notifications@github.comwrote:

The header for http://railwayjs.com/ says Create NodeJS web apps faster with more energy It sounds like if I try harder I can develop faster, which isn't a benefit.

Try this instead. Create NodeJS web apps faster with less energy

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHubhttps://github.com/1602/express-on-railway/issues/209.

Thanks, Anatoliy Chakkaev

[athanclark]

"Railway.js: Keeping your Node.js web app on-track."

[1602]

I like it, thank you.

[athanclark]

:) I like "Keeping your web app on track" better, but it's up to you! I'm going to fix some typos and grammar issues on the website, it would make it a bit more fluid to read. This project is awesome!!! Thank you so much for giving it away for free! Is there anything I can do for you? Maybe a new slick rails+node logo? I really want to help this project, it's the least I could do for this tremendous donation :)

[athanclark]

So I just made a logo/icon for railway js! Tell me what you think! http://athanclark.com/railwayjs.svg http://athanclark.com/railwayjs-logo.svg

Tried to go for the "node" feel + rails' logo

[anatoliychakkaev]

That's would be great, i give you access to railwayjs.com when reach my laptop. About logo: as you can see i have no design skills, so any artworks are welcome. But as far as i know rails logo is subject of copyright and could not be used without explicit permission. I've contacted @dhh 1.5 years ago regarding name of framework and he was against railwayjs, obviously we can not use rails icon.

But, from another point of view - it's good, because we have freedom to create something completely different. What do you think about R letter stylized as subway/railway map? Something else?

Btw, icons are really nice, thanks for making it!

Thanks, Anatoliy

On 15.12.2012, at 19:31, Athan Clark notifications@github.com wrote:

I'm going to fix some typos and grammar issues on the website, it would make it a bit more fluid to read

[dhh]

Please come up with another name that's not easily confused with Rails the Ruby framework. It's fine to say that you're inspired by Rails, but pick an identity that's not confusing to what is Rails and what this thing is. This is the point of trademark registration, to prevent confusion from users.

On Dec 15, 2012, at 6:34 PM, Anatoliy Chakkaev notifications@github.com wrote:

That's would be great, i give you access to railwayjs.com when reach my laptop. About logo: as you can see i have no design skills, so any artworks are welcome. But as far as i know rails logo is subject of copyright and could not be used without explicit permission. I've contacted @dhh 1.5 years ago regarding name of framework and he was against railwayjs, obviously we can not use rails icon.

But, from another point of view - it's good, because we have freedom to create something completely different. What do you think about R letter stylized as subway/railway map? Something else?

Btw, icons are really nice, thanks for making it!

Thanks, Anatoliy

On 15.12.2012, at 19:31, Athan Clark notifications@github.com wrote:

I'm going to fix some typos and grammar issues on the website, it would make it a bit more fluid to read — Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub.

[anatoliychakkaev]

Dear David,

You are talking about "preventing confusion from users", but for two years I never met confused user of RailwayJS even if user comes from rails. Moreover rails people heard about my framework for the first time completely understand difference; "Like rails, but for nodejs" - they said.

Could you please be more specific on trademark complaints? I'm interested in which part of registered trademarks violated by RailwayJS name.

On Sat, Dec 15, 2012 at 9:37 PM, David Heinemeier Hansson < notifications@github.com> wrote:

Please come up with another name that's not easily confused with Rails the Ruby framework. It's fine to say that you're inspired by Rails, but pick an identity that's not confusing to what is Rails and what this thing is. This is the point of trademark registration, to prevent confusion from users.

On Dec 15, 2012, at 6:34 PM, Anatoliy Chakkaev notifications@github.com wrote:

That's would be great, i give you access to railwayjs.com when reach my laptop. About logo: as you can see i have no design skills, so any artworks are welcome. But as far as i know rails logo is subject of copyright and could not be used without explicit permission. I've contacted @dhh 1.5 years ago regarding name of framework and he was against railwayjs, obviously we can not use rails icon.

But, from another point of view - it's good, because we have freedom to create something completely different. What do you think about R letter stylized as subway/railway map? Something else?

Btw, icons are really nice, thanks for making it!

Thanks, Anatoliy

On 15.12.2012, at 19:31, Athan Clark notifications@github.com wrote:

I'm going to fix some typos and grammar issues on the website, it would make it a bit more fluid to read — Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub.

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHubhttps://github.com/1602/express-on-railway/issues/209#issuecomment-11406972.

[dhh]

You're piggybacking off the good will of Rails and can confuse users who think this is something made by the same people behind the real thing. Not only is that a trademark issue, it's also just incredibly poor form. I am happy that my creation has inspired you and provided you with designs to reimplement, but please stop using a derivative of our branding.

On Dec 15, 2012, at 20:20, Anatoliy Chakkaev notifications@github.com wrote:

Dear David,

You are talking about "preventing confusion from users", but for two years I never met confused user of RailwayJS even if user comes from rails. Moreover rails people heard about my framework for the first time completely understand difference; "Like rails, but for nodejs" - they said.

Could you please be more specific on trademark complaints? I'm interested in which part of registered trademarks violated by RailwayJS name.

On Sat, Dec 15, 2012 at 9:37 PM, David Heinemeier Hansson < notifications@github.com> wrote:

Please come up with another name that's not easily confused with Rails the Ruby framework. It's fine to say that you're inspired by Rails, but pick an identity that's not confusing to what is Rails and what this thing is. This is the point of trademark registration, to prevent confusion from users.

On Dec 15, 2012, at 6:34 PM, Anatoliy Chakkaev notifications@github.com wrote:

That's would be great, i give you access to railwayjs.com when reach my laptop. About logo: as you can see i have no design skills, so any artworks are welcome. But as far as i know rails logo is subject of copyright and could not be used without explicit permission. I've contacted @dhh 1.5 years ago regarding name of framework and he was against railwayjs, obviously we can not use rails icon.

But, from another point of view - it's good, because we have freedom to create something completely different. What do you think about R letter stylized as subway/railway map? Something else?

Btw, icons are really nice, thanks for making it!

Thanks, Anatoliy

On 15.12.2012, at 19:31, Athan Clark notifications@github.com wrote:

I'm going to fix some typos and grammar issues on the website, it would make it a bit more fluid to read — Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub.

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHubhttps://github.com/1602/express-on-railway/issues/209#issuecomment-11406972.

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub.

[athanclark]

No problem! You know, that is a good idea. It might be a good idea to separate this project completely from Rails... it might make some people happy and would be a good opportunity to distinguish yourselves from the market. Something I noticed that was unique about railroad is that it is hierarchical - I don't think Rails is like that. I know that CakePHP isn't like that. So that got me thinking... Hierarchical = composite... Built out of elements.. Node.js...

How about "Compound.js"? Here was what I was thinking for logos: http://athanclark.com/ideas.svg

I'm thinking that "Tesselation" and "Tesseract" would be 3d and possibly done with three.js. Still no idea, though.

Let's all just get along :) Tis the season to be giving!

[anatoliychakkaev]

@athanclark, i think this is really cool, and weird that we haven't done this earlier because billions of people know railwayjs name and have no idea what compound.js is. And I like "Railway", "Railroads" as concept, because it refers to something with decent and solid design, built in well and reliable way.

[athanclark]

@anatoliychakkaev So compoundjs.com is avalable! https://www.godaddy.com/domains/searchresults.aspx?ci=54814

What do you say? Should we start some chemistry? :)

[dhh]

Joshua, there's amble room for confusion. This project seeks to reimplement the design concepts of the original Ruby on Rails on another platform AND it's using a derivative name. That's like creating a cherry cola and calling it "Coke Cherry". Both are derivatives and confusing.

Again, not only is this an issue as a trademark problem, but it's just as much an issue for just being incredibly poor manors. Ruby on Rails has supplied this project with architectural design and ideas. I'm glad that it has. But why on earth would you repay that by creating confusing branding?

On Dec 15, 2012, at 9:19 PM, Joshua Anderson wrote:

@dhh The statement is directed towards the aspect of confusion seems as it relates to US law regarding trademarks. If similar names creates confusion then the claim may be valid. But in terms of actuality would you want to proceed forward against railway considering they come from two different platforms completely. Any developer with the knowledge and ability to use Ruby on Rails can easily distinguish from platforms they are developing on. In my opinion this creates no confusion.

The only thing that worries me about this project is the name; it is rather close. If both of these applications used Ruby (the language) it would really be an issue.

Note: I am in no way affiliated with the railway project, I am only a moderator on its google groups page. I am no lawyer this constitues as no legal advice.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confusing_similarity http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trademark_infringement

Don't show concern regarding to wiki resources, check the references if you are worried.

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub.

[ghost]

@dhh I understand your frustration. They seem to be considering aspects and will probably come to a decision. I have only used Ruby on Rails a few times and did not venture into the Ruby language but in relation of architectural design and ideas can you be more specific. Because the MVC application structure was "originally formulated in the late 1970s by Trygve Reenskaug at Xerox PARC, as part of the Smalltalk system" ("Model-view-Controller").

Works Cited: "Model-view-Controller." Model–view–controller. Wikipedia.org, n.d. Web. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model-view-controller.

[dhh]

From your website: "Railway is the Node.JS MVC framework based on ExpressJS, fully ExpressJS-compatible. It allows you to build web applications in a similar manner as in Ruby On Rails."

On Dec 15, 2012, at 21:38, Joshua Anderson notifications@github.com wrote:

@dhh I understand your frustration. They seem to be considering aspects and will probably come to a decision. I have only used Ruby on Rails a few times and did not venture into the ruby language but in relation of architectural design and ideas can you be more specific. Because the MVC application structure was "originally formulated in the late 1970s by Trygve Reenskaug at Xerox PARC, as part of the Smalltalk system" ("Model-view-Controller").

Works Cited: "Model-view-Controller." Model–view–controller. Wikipedia.org, n.d. Web. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model-view-controller.

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub.

[anatoliychakkaev]

@dhh, as far as I understand you don't know what railwayjs is. It's not trying to reimplement rails (we don't need another rails), because rails is really poor for today's web, it was fine 10 years ago, but now we need something completely different, and this is what we are triyng to do in railwayjs. All we have from rails - is MVC concept, everything else is different. RailwayJS completely modular, allows build decentralized applications, in very flexible way. It's much faster in simplier than rails, and it's completely async from the beginning, because of node.

It allows you to build web applications in a similar manner as in Ruby On Rails it only means that you can quickly generate app and scaffold

On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 at 12:42 AM, David Heinemeier Hansson < notifications@github.com> wrote:

From your website: "Railway is the Node.JS MVC framework based on ExpressJS, fully ExpressJS-compatible. It allows you to build web applications in a similar manner as in Ruby On Rails."

On Dec 15, 2012, at 21:38, Joshua Anderson notifications@github.com wrote:

@dhh I understand your frustration. They seem to be considering aspects and will probably come to a decision. I have only used Ruby on Rails a few times and did not venture into the ruby language but in relation of architectural design and ideas can you be more specific. Because the MVC application structure was "originally formulated in the late 1970s by Trygve Reenskaug at Xerox PARC, as part of the Smalltalk system" ("Model-view-Controller").

Works Cited: "Model-view-Controller." Model–view–controller. Wikipedia.org, n.d. Web. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model-view-controller.

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub.

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHubhttps://github.com/1602/express-on-railway/issues/209#issuecomment-11410126.

[dhh]

http://tsdr.uspto.gov/#caseNumber=77119206&caseType=SERIAL_NO&searchType=statusSearch

In addition, I hold marks on "Rails" and the Rails logo.

On Dec 15, 2012, at 21:43, Joshua Anderson notifications@github.com wrote:

Also, I can't seem to locate your trademark in US Trademark office files.

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub.

[dhh]

You're are happy to ride the coat tails of Rails' success by claiming its "rails for nodejs", you even name your framework such that its confusingly similar to the registered trademark, and now you have the balls to diss the work on top of that? Impressive.

On Dec 15, 2012, at 21:48, Anatoliy Chakkaev notifications@github.com wrote:

@dhh, as far as I understand you don't know what railwayjs is. It's not trying to reimplement rails (we don't need another rails), because rails is really poor for today's web, it was fine 10 years ago, but now we need something completely different, and this is what we are triyng to do in railwayjs. All we have from rails - is MVC concept, everything else is different. RailwayJS completely modular, allows build decentralized applications, in very flexible way. It's much faster in simplier than rails, and it's completely async from the beginning, because of node.

It allows you to build web applications in a similar manner as in Ruby On Rails it only means that you can quickly generate app and scaffold

On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 at 12:42 AM, David Heinemeier Hansson < notifications@github.com> wrote:

From your website: "Railway is the Node.JS MVC framework based on ExpressJS, fully ExpressJS-compatible. It allows you to build web applications in a similar manner as in Ruby On Rails."

On Dec 15, 2012, at 21:38, Joshua Anderson notifications@github.com wrote:

@dhh I understand your frustration. They seem to be considering aspects and will probably come to a decision. I have only used Ruby on Rails a few times and did not venture into the ruby language but in relation of architectural design and ideas can you be more specific. Because the MVC application structure was "originally formulated in the late 1970s by Trygve Reenskaug at Xerox PARC, as part of the Smalltalk system" ("Model-view-Controller").

Works Cited: "Model-view-Controller." Model–view–controller. Wikipedia.org, n.d. Web. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model-view-controller.

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub.

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHubhttps://github.com/1602/express-on-railway/issues/209#issuecomment-11410126.

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub.

[anatoliychakkaev]

I don't want to be rude, just wanted to show you that we are talking about completely different technologies. If you would be happy I will remove every reference to rails and leave disclaimer explaining that my project is not rails and don't pretend to be "ruby on rails".

the work on top of that not true. this project was written from scratch, in different language, without looking into rails code. i only know what is good in rails and what is bad. but things good in rails also part of many-many different frameworks such as Symphony or CakePHP.

On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 at 2:04 AM, David Heinemeier Hansson < notifications@github.com> wrote:

You're are happy to ride the coat tails of Rails' success by claiming its "rails for nodejs", you even name your framework such that its confusingly similar to the registered trademark, and now you have the balls to diss the work on top of that? Impressive.

On Dec 15, 2012, at 21:48, Anatoliy Chakkaev notifications@github.com wrote:

@dhh, as far as I understand you don't know what railwayjs is. It's not trying to reimplement rails (we don't need another rails), because rails is really poor for today's web, it was fine 10 years ago, but now we need something completely different, and this is what we are triyng to do in railwayjs. All we have from rails - is MVC concept, everything else is different. RailwayJS completely modular, allows build decentralized applications, in very flexible way. It's much faster in simplier than rails, and it's completely async from the beginning, because of node.

It allows you to build web applications in a similar manner as in Ruby On Rails it only means that you can quickly generate app and scaffold

On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 at 12:42 AM, David Heinemeier Hansson < notifications@github.com> wrote:

From your website: "Railway is the Node.JS MVC framework based on ExpressJS, fully ExpressJS-compatible. It allows you to build web applications in a similar manner as in Ruby On Rails."

On Dec 15, 2012, at 21:38, Joshua Anderson notifications@github.com wrote:

@dhh I understand your frustration. They seem to be considering aspects and will probably come to a decision. I have only used Ruby on Rails a few times and did not venture into the ruby language but in relation of architectural design and ideas can you be more specific. Because the MVC application structure was "originally formulated in the late 1970s by Trygve Reenskaug at Xerox PARC, as part of the Smalltalk system" ("Model-view-Controller").

Works Cited: "Model-view-Controller." Model–view–controller. Wikipedia.org, n.d. Web. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model-view-controller.

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub.

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub< https://github.com/1602/express-on-railway/issues/209#issuecomment-11410126>.

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub.

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHubhttps://github.com/1602/express-on-railway/issues/209#issuecomment-11411113.

[dhh]

Additionally, it really takes some gall to claim that all you've borrowed from Rails is generators and scaffolding. The entire promotional page is filled with Railsisms. From validatesNumericalityOf to hasMany/belongsTo to the routing definitions and presentations to the directory layouts. It's all the thought work and mannerisms of Rails.

And that's fine. I'm glad you've been so inspired. We spent a decade honing this architectural system and I'm happy to see it form foundations elsewhere. But given how liberally you've taken our work and reapplied it, I would expect just a modicum of grace and respect in return.

So. Please stop using a name that can confuse people as to whether this work is made by the same people who made Ruby on Rails. This the essence of trademark protection and you are in clear violation. Not only of the legal code, but, more importantly, of common decency and respect in the open source world.

On Dec 15, 2012, at 21:48, Anatoliy Chakkaev notifications@github.com wrote:

@dhh, as far as I understand you don't know what railwayjs is. It's not trying to reimplement rails (we don't need another rails), because rails is really poor for today's web, it was fine 10 years ago, but now we need something completely different, and this is what we are triyng to do in railwayjs. All we have from rails - is MVC concept, everything else is different. RailwayJS completely modular, allows build decentralized applications, in very flexible way. It's much faster in simplier than rails, and it's completely async from the beginning, because of node.

It allows you to build web applications in a similar manner as in Ruby On Rails it only means that you can quickly generate app and scaffold

On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 at 12:42 AM, David Heinemeier Hansson < notifications@github.com> wrote:

From your website: "Railway is the Node.JS MVC framework based on ExpressJS, fully ExpressJS-compatible. It allows you to build web applications in a similar manner as in Ruby On Rails."

On Dec 15, 2012, at 21:38, Joshua Anderson notifications@github.com wrote:

@dhh I understand your frustration. They seem to be considering aspects and will probably come to a decision. I have only used Ruby on Rails a few times and did not venture into the ruby language but in relation of architectural design and ideas can you be more specific. Because the MVC application structure was "originally formulated in the late 1970s by Trygve Reenskaug at Xerox PARC, as part of the Smalltalk system" ("Model-view-Controller").

Works Cited: "Model-view-Controller." Model–view–controller. Wikipedia.org, n.d. Web. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model-view-controller.

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub.

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHubhttps://github.com/1602/express-on-railway/issues/209#issuecomment-11410126.

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub.

[dhh]

You are being incredibly rude. Yes, Rails has inspired many other frameworks over the years including those two in PHP. And as I said, we are happy to provide the architectural framework, naming, and direction, but we draw the line at lending out the trademark.

Come up with a unique identity that doesn't confuse people as to whether this framework is made by the same people as the original. "Compound.js" was suggested and that sounds great to me.

On Dec 15, 2012, at 23:12, Anatoliy Chakkaev notifications@github.com wrote:

I don't want to be rude, just wanted to show you that we are talking about completely different technologies. If you would be happy I will remove every reference to rails and leave disclaimer explaining that my project is not rails and don't pretend to be "ruby on rails".

the work on top of that not true. this project was written from scratch, in different language, without looking into rails code. i only know what is good in rails and what is bad. but things good in rails also part of many-many different frameworks such as Symphony or CakePHP.

On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 at 2:04 AM, David Heinemeier Hansson < notifications@github.com> wrote:

You're are happy to ride the coat tails of Rails' success by claiming its "rails for nodejs", you even name your framework such that its confusingly similar to the registered trademark, and now you have the balls to diss the work on top of that? Impressive.

On Dec 15, 2012, at 21:48, Anatoliy Chakkaev notifications@github.com wrote:

@dhh, as far as I understand you don't know what railwayjs is. It's not trying to reimplement rails (we don't need another rails), because rails is really poor for today's web, it was fine 10 years ago, but now we need something completely different, and this is what we are triyng to do in railwayjs. All we have from rails - is MVC concept, everything else is different. RailwayJS completely modular, allows build decentralized applications, in very flexible way. It's much faster in simplier than rails, and it's completely async from the beginning, because of node.

It allows you to build web applications in a similar manner as in Ruby On Rails it only means that you can quickly generate app and scaffold

On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 at 12:42 AM, David Heinemeier Hansson < notifications@github.com> wrote:

From your website: "Railway is the Node.JS MVC framework based on ExpressJS, fully ExpressJS-compatible. It allows you to build web applications in a similar manner as in Ruby On Rails."

On Dec 15, 2012, at 21:38, Joshua Anderson notifications@github.com wrote:

@dhh I understand your frustration. They seem to be considering aspects and will probably come to a decision. I have only used Ruby on Rails a few times and did not venture into the ruby language but in relation of architectural design and ideas can you be more specific. Because the MVC application structure was "originally formulated in the late 1970s by Trygve Reenskaug at Xerox PARC, as part of the Smalltalk system" ("Model-view-Controller").

Works Cited: "Model-view-Controller." Model–view–controller. Wikipedia.org, n.d. Web. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model-view-controller.

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub.

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub< https://github.com/1602/express-on-railway/issues/209#issuecomment-11410126>.

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub.

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHubhttps://github.com/1602/express-on-railway/issues/209#issuecomment-11411113.

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub.

[anatoliychakkaev]

On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 at 2:19 AM, David Heinemeier Hansson < notifications@github.com> wrote:

You are being incredibly rude.

Hmm. You've spotted potential misunderstanding. As I said before - being rude is not my rule. If you feel like I've said something offensive, please accept my most sincere apologies and show me what have you found offensive, to avoid any misunderstanding. You know that English is not my first language and probably you get me wrong.

All I wanted to explain: RailwayJS is not pretending to mimic RUBY ON RAILS. And since I have no complaints about confusion from railwayjs users and rails users (everyone understand the difference without any confusion) and we have any legal issues with that name, it's hard for me to understand reasons of your complaints.

And couple words about the last thing you are appealing to: "common decency and respect in the open source world". Wanted to let you know, I've done a lot of work just for fun, without any profit, and received a lot of "thanks" from nodejs community and no complaints until this day. So, isn't it true opensource? And I wanted to ask: where's your respect to nodejs community, to all those folks contributing to railwayjs or just using it and rely on it?

And again, please don't get me wrong, this is not personal battle (i have no profits personally), I fighting for my community, who did great job on contributing to railwayjs and want to understand, why are you fighting agains them, could you please explain it for us, so everyone will see _real_reasons of renaming if I will decide to change name finally?

[dhh]

I've worked for a decade to build the Ruby on Rails brand. Not just with developers, but journalists, business people, and decision makers. These are constituencies that are likely to be confused by something that sounds like Rails and looks like Rails, but is not Rails and not made by the same people.

This is the essence of trademark protection! Just because you haven't heard any complaints directly does not alleviate the concern.

There's nothing that presents people from continuing to use and rely on your framework if it's called compound.js, or some other name that's not likely to be confused with Rails.

And of course your framework mimics Rails. It's signature style is all over the naming of your APIs. I'm OK with that! It's fine to mimic Rails like this. It's just not fine to do so AND create confusion in the market place by using an extremely similar name.

So please come up with a different name and assert your own identity. You can redirect the railswayjs.com domain to the new identity, so nobody linking to the old site needs to go in vain.

Further more, you wrote me to ask in 2011 whether it was OK to use the name. I told you it was not ok, you never wrote back, and you just used the name anyway. That's incredibly disrespectful and it shows bad faith. You knew the trademarks existed, you inquired whether you could use them, you got turned down, and you used them anyway. A trademark case does not get any more open and shut than that.

On Dec 16, 2012, at 1:00 AM, Anatoliy Chakkaev notifications@github.com wrote:

On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 at 2:19 AM, David Heinemeier Hansson < notifications@github.com> wrote:

You are being incredibly rude.

Hmm. You've spotted potential misunderstanding. As I said before - being rude is not my rule. If you feel like I've said something offensive, please accept my most sincere apologies and show me what have you found offensive, to avoid any misunderstanding. You know that English is not my first language and probably you get me wrong.

All I wanted to explain: RailwayJS is not pretending to mimic RUBY ON RAILS. And since I have no complaints about confusion from railwayjs users and rails users (everyone understand the difference without any confusion) and we have any legal issues with that name, it's hard for me to understand reasons of your complaints.

And couple words about the last thing you are appealing to: "common decency and respect in the open source world". Wanted to let you know, I've done a lot of work just for fun, without any profit, and received a lot of "thanks" from nodejs community and no complaints until this day. So, isn't it true opensource? And I wanted to ask: where's your respect to nodejs community, to all those folks contributing to railwayjs or just using it and rely on it?

And again, please don't get me wrong, this is not personal battle (i have no profits personally), I fighting for my community, who did great job on contributing to railwayjs and want to understand, why are you fighting agains them, could you please explain it for us, so everyone will see _real_reasons of renaming if I will decide to change name finally? — Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub.

[dhh]

Here's the email you wrote me on 7/8/11:

Hi David!   I'm author of Rails-inspired web framework for Node.JS. The project's name is RailwayJS. As I have been recently notified (https://github.com/1602/express-on-railway/issues/40), "Rails", "Ruby on Rails", and the Rails logo are registered trademarks of David Heinemeier Hansson. All rights reserved.  My question is: would you mind if I will use "RailwayJS" project name? Just wanted to identify possible issues before project become popular.   P.S. thank you for your great framework.   Thanks, Anatoliy.

And here's the answer I sent you that same day:

Hi Anatoliy,   Congrats on making your own framework. It's a lot of fun but also a lot of work. But please do come up with another name that's not going to cause confusion. RailwayJS is very close and I could see people being confused as to whether this is a JS version of Rails made by the same people, which of course it's not. Thanks for getting in touch and good luck finding a new name for the framework.

You're acting in very bad faith. Please cease and desist.

[anatoliychakkaev]

Let me explain why I not stopped using name in 2011: I thought I get you correctly to stop using name in case of any real confusion or any official trademarks violations, but I never met any confusions or official letters about trademark violations.

Could you please stop calling me rude and "acting in very bad faith". It makes me sad, because I trying to be polite with you despite of your behavior.

So, to resume everything. From your point of view I use your business for promoting my framework. And I trying to explain that I'm not using any registered trademarks. But okay, now I understand your frustration and I think there's enough reasons to keep my framework far away from yours as it's possible.

Thank you for your time.

On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 at 4:10 AM, David Heinemeier Hansson < notifications@github.com> wrote:

Here's the email you wrote me on 7/8/11:

Hi David!

I'm author of Rails-inspired web framework for Node.JS. The project's name is RailwayJS. As I have been recently notified (https://github.com/1602/express-on-railway/issues/40), "Rails", "Ruby on Rails", and the Rails logo are registered trademarks of David Heinemeier Hansson. All rights reserved.

My question is: would you mind if I will use "RailwayJS" project name? Just wanted to identify possible issues before project become popular.

P.S. thank you for your great framework.

Thanks, Anatoliy.

And here's the answer I sent you that same day:

Hi Anatoliy,

Congrats on making your own framework. It's a lot of fun but also a lot of work. But please do come up with another name that's not going to cause confusion. RailwayJS is very close and I could see people being confused as to whether this is a JS version of Rails made by the same people, which of course it's not. Thanks for getting in touch and good luck finding a new name for the framework.

You're acting in very bad faith. Please cease and desist.

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHubhttps://github.com/1602/express-on-railway/issues/209#issuecomment-11412373.

[athanclark]

I say this battle is not worth fighting. Might be best to just change the name and be done with it - I'll rewrite the whole website and re-comment out the source code / comments to fix the new name for you. No sense in fighting a battle when nobody can win :\

@dhh Just for some reference, here are some frameworks that implement ORM relations: http://www.yiiframework.com/doc/guide/1.1/en/database.arr#declaring-relationship http://book.cakephp.org/2.0/en/models/associations-linking-models-together.html#hasmany http://www.finalconcept.com.au/article/view/symfony-doctrine-one-to-many-relations

I'm sorry, but claiming ownership of "has many", an intuitive directory structure, and validation rules is like Apple trying to patent the square with round corners. I hate to disrespect, but you can't open source a project and not expect people to copy it and fork it. I guess really the only option is to change the name of this project and all it's identifiers.

@anatoliychakkaev What do you say? Can we change the name? I'm sure it would save everyone a lot of grief, and would only cost $10.00. I'll design and rewrite the website if you can take care of re-naming the command line tool :)

[dhh]

I don't understand what you are saying. You asked me whether I saw a problem with calling your "Rails-inspired web framework for Node.JS" a name that is very close to Ruby on Rails. I told you that yes, that was a problem and that you should find another name. I assumed that you had done exactly that since you never wrote back. Now I find out that you in fact did not.

That is bad faith. Asking for permission, getting a clear no, and then doing it anyway is the definition of bad faith.

You don't have to be using the direct registered trademark to be in violation of trademark law. If there is a "likelihood of confusion" then that's all that's needed. And for good reason. Calling your burger shop McDanalds is not going to fly either. Calling your code sharing platform GitHop neither.

I'm sure you can get a lawyer to explain that you have a very bad case here. I hope we don't get to that point, though. I'd much rather resolve this amicably than pursue a court case. But this problem is not going to go away before you rename your "Rails-inspired web framework" to something that can't be confused with Rails itself.

On Dec 16, 2012, at 1:32, Anatoliy Chakkaev notifications@github.com wrote:

Let me explain why I not stopped using name in 2011: I thought I get you correctly to stop using name in case of any real confusion or any official trademarks violations, but I never met any confusions or official letters about trademark violations.

Could you please stop calling me rude and "acting in very bad faith". It makes me sad, because I trying to be polite with you despite of your behavior.

So, to resume everything. From your point of view I use your business for promoting my framework. And I trying to explain that I'm not using any registered trademarks. But okay, now I understand your frustration and I think there's enough reasons to keep my framework far away from yours as it's possible.

Thank you for your time.

On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 at 4:10 AM, David Heinemeier Hansson < notifications@github.com> wrote:

Here's the email you wrote me on 7/8/11:

Hi David!

I'm author of Rails-inspired web framework for Node.JS. The project's name is RailwayJS. As I have been recently notified (https://github.com/1602/express-on-railway/issues/40), "Rails", "Ruby on Rails", and the Rails logo are registered trademarks of David Heinemeier Hansson. All rights reserved.

My question is: would you mind if I will use "RailwayJS" project name? Just wanted to identify possible issues before project become popular.

P.S. thank you for your great framework.

Thanks, Anatoliy.

And here's the answer I sent you that same day:

Hi Anatoliy,

Congrats on making your own framework. It's a lot of fun but also a lot of work. But please do come up with another name that's not going to cause confusion. RailwayJS is very close and I could see people being confused as to whether this is a JS version of Rails made by the same people, which of course it's not. Thanks for getting in touch and good luck finding a new name for the framework.

You're acting in very bad faith. Please cease and desist.

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHubhttps://github.com/1602/express-on-railway/issues/209#issuecomment-11412373.

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub.

[dhh]

@athanclark Yes, other frameworks have been inspired by our design as well. As I explicitly stated elsewhere, this is perfectly alright! All this does is establish the supporting facts for @anatoliychakkaev's own claim that this is a "Rails-inspired web framework". That in itself is not a problem. It's only a problem when you also choose to pick a name that's likely to cause confusion, which is the case here.

[dhh]

Anyway, we've gone back and forth enough over this. We have established by your own admission that this is a "Rails-inspired web framework", that you in 2011 recognized the likelihood of confusion between "RailwayJS" and "Rails", that you asked permission from me as the trademark holder of "Rails" to continue with the name despite this potential for confusion, and that you carried on in bad faith after being declined. This is about as clear a case as they come.

I am therefore giving you 72 hours to cease and desist the use of the confusing name. If this matter is not addressed by Wednesday 9am GMT+1, I'll have to hand the case over to my trademark attorney and we will pursue it from there. This is exactly why I went to great expense to register the trademarks back in 2007.

It doesn't have to come to this. You can continue to be a "Rails-inspired web framework", you just have to find a different name. Like I told you in 2011.

[dhh]

Final point for the record: You were notified by that the name was going to be a problem in https://github.com/1602/express-on-railway/issues/40 by another Github user. Your comments in this thread further establish that you knew that you had to change the name, as you write "Yep, it seems that we should choose new name :)". Please follow through on that correct conclusion from a year ago.

[dhh]

I see that you have already started the work on the rename via twitter: http://twitter.com/1602/status/280093653039472642. Thank you for getting that started. Compound.js sounds like a nice name and there are lots of good metaphors to explore in that universe. But I would shy away from trying to copy the nodejs logo as well. "Node.js is a trademark of Joyent, Inc" and they don't seem to like that either: http://twitter.com/nodejs/status/280094776328601602. I strongly recommend you to come up with your own identity that is not a derivative of an existing trademark. It'll be a better identity for it and you won't get in legal trouble over it and you can focus on just making code.

[mansuleman]

Would like to put couple of cents into the discussion as member of the node.js community. We've got used to railwayjs name and aren't confused anymore with it. To give 3 days to the framework name is little time and might condemn the community for real confusion. The name railwayjs is somewhat different from the word "Rails". Transition to new name should be naturally followed by re-inventing the framework.

[saschagehlich]

Do we really have to argue about such an issue in an Open Source world? I find it kinda sad that you are so upset about a name that doesn't cause any confusion, @dhh. If it was "RailsJS" or something, okay, fine. But in my opinion "railway.js" is far away from "Rails". It makes clear that it's close to the Rails architecture (there's nothing wrong about that) but it's still a different name that makes clear that it uses another technology.

To find an end to this discussion: @anatoliychakkaev, just find a new name for the project, I'll help you rename all the stuff. Maybe tram.js or some other public-transport-likey name.

[muescha]

The compoundjs domain is already registered by @anatoliychakkaev - i think that all is on the way...

[isaacs]

I think @dhh is 100% in the right here. (I posted the tweet from nodejs.)

You know what? "Rails" is kind of a silly name. The node logo is ugly. It's not the logo or the name that makes a project succeed. It's the hours and months and years spent on attention to detail, and iterating on the interfaces, so that you can deliver something of value. The name and logo are just a handle so that people can talk about it. You're putting the cart before the horse here, in a big way.

The best course of action is to spend as little time as possible on the name or logo. Don't get attached to it. If you really can't come up with a unique name, then maybe you're writing a program that doesn't need to exist, and you ought to figure that out first. Just throw some scrabble tiles on the floor and pick the first word they spell.

It doesn't matter, except as a way to uniquely identify your program. If you pick a name or logo that is easily confused with something else, then it's not doing it's job, now, is it? In that case, no matter how cute it is, it's a bad logo, because it's doing the job of a logo badly.

Making a logo for a program that isn't even working yet is kind of like designing the album art for a band that hasn't written any songs. No matter how good it is, it doesn't make up for not actually delivering any software yet. The fact that you had this conversation with @dhh over a year ago, and it's still going on, seems like evidence that maybe you're focused on the wrong things here. Why are you even bothering to buy domain names and argue over logos, when your program doesn't have any users?

[isaacs]

Also, we don't have a trademark on hexagons as such, of course, and you can waste a lot of time quibbling over how close you can get to the node logo before you start infringing on it.

But why bother doing that? Why not pick something unique, and then give it relevance by putting your own value behind it?

If you don't have your own value to add, then why even have this conversation?

[anatoliychakkaev]

Isaac, I'm not sure what are you talking about "program not exists", "zero users". Program exists, here is it's documentation http://railwayjs.com/, and we have some users: https://npmjs.org/package/railway

And about nodejs logo, I not fan of using it, but I like idea of graphical representation of 'compound.js' as chemical formula image. And since in based on nodejs platform, using hexagons as elements of image looks suitable, because it's recognizable shape.

But I see your point, any recognizable shapes and terms could not be used in proprietary world. I thought it was open, but it seems like I was wrong about it.

On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 1:41 AM, Isaac Z. Schlueter < notifications@github.com> wrote:

Also, we don't have a trademark on hexagons as such, of course, and you can waste a lot of time quibbling over how close you can get to the node logo before you start infringing on it.

But why bother doing that? Why not pick something unique, and then give it relevance by putting your own value behind it?

If you don't have your own value to add, then why even have this conversation?

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHubhttps://github.com/1602/express-on-railway/issues/209#issuecomment-11423332.

[isaacs]

Sorry, I was unclear. What I meant is that you didn't have users in 2011, when you were asking for permission to use the name "railway" and acting in bad faith with that permission was refused.

The Node.js logo is not "open". It is the property of Joyent. The trademark policy is remarkably lenient, but quite clear that infringing marks are not allowed, for more or less the exact same reasons that @dhh explained above wrt the "rails" name.

(The source is open, of course, and always will be.)

[athanclark]

@isaacs I totally agree except on one point - I think that he didn't change the name because he didn't think that it was too important haha. Definitely agree that a unique, uninfluenced name is important. @anatoliychakkaev I think isaacs was just trying to explain that the name isn't that important. But I think you understand :)

I guess the best thing to do would be to get railway / compound back on it's feet and ready for action! @anatoliychakkaev , can you email me the website? I think that's where I could be the most help :)

I'll remake the compound.js logo so that it DOESN'T take node's hexagon. I'll just make it horizontal and 2 points off hue ;) Just kidding hahaha.

[athanclark]

Check it out: athanclark.com/compound.svg

VERY prototype. Also, I couldn't think of any other designs, so I decided to stick with the hexagon. I made it sideways and went with blue, I hope you can deal with it.

What do you think?

[muescha]

I think its too big for a standalone logo

It should have a standalone icon - when seeing it alone it should be unique.

[anatoliychakkaev]

I think it's still violates nodejs trademark. How about any abstract molecula? With no letters inside. Or just Co in square? Like mendeleev's table cell.

Thanks, Anatoliy

On 17.12.2012, at 3:05, Athan Clark notifications@github.com wrote:

Check it out: athanclark.com/compound.svg

VERY prototype. Also, I couldn't think of any other designs, so I decided to stick with the hexagon. I made it sideways and went with blue, I hope you can deal with it.

What do you think?

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub.

[muescha]

Or circles?

[athanclark]

Like the one from before? Check out Isotope: athanclark.com/ideas.svg

[anatoliychakkaev]

Yep, something like isotope or this one: http://logopond.com/gallery/detail/149919 I think it will look weird in favicon, so it should be something flat, and looking simple.

Thanks, Anatoliy

On 17.12.2012, at 3:34, Athan Clark notifications@github.com wrote:

Like the one from before? Check out Isotope: athanclark.com/ideas.svg

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub.

[anatoliychakkaev]

Okay guys, we have two most popular names finally:

Compound Tram

I like first one because it means that framework is modular, tiny and lightweight. Tram is good too, but transport theme is overused by other frameworks. Thoughts?

Thanks, Anatoliy

On 17.12.2012, at 3:49, Joshua Anderson notifications@github.com wrote:

@athanclark Ensure you are creating your own logo from scratch unless the owner of imagery or pieces of a logo has given you permission to use such. Otherwise it is violating copyright laws. You cannot assume you have permission either you must obtain it.

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub.

[ghost]

trolley.js (taken) tramcar.js streetcar.js trolleycar.js

I like oranges.js

And you could buy a cheap logo and replace the name. http://logopond.com/logos/986c132e3bc49f0333f717cd38fb2118.png

[dhh]

Joshua, as long as they stop referring to using RailwayJS, it's all good.

On Dec 17, 2012, at 1:17, Joshua Anderson notifications@github.com wrote:

@dhh Yet to be discussed is wether people who have already build projects under the RailwayJS brand (and it is at their projects core) will be affected by the trademark infringement. Could you comment on your actions towards those individuals / projects?

To be more specific I am speaking of people who have built websites with what was the prior versions of RailwayJS.

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub.

[ghost]

k Great.

Thanks.

On Dec 17, 2012, at 2:15 AM, David Heinemeier Hansson notifications@github.com wrote:

Joshua, as long as they stop referring to using RailwayJS, it's all good.

On Dec 17, 2012, at 1:17, Joshua Anderson notifications@github.com wrote:

@dhh Yet to be discussed is wether people who have already build projects under the RailwayJS brand (and it is at their projects core) will be affected by the trademark infringement. Could you comment on your actions towards those individuals / projects?

To be more specific I am speaking of people who have built websites with what was the prior versions of RailwayJS.

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub.

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub.

[saschagehlich]

BTW: The npm package name "compound" is already taken while tram is still available.

I like the logo you made, Joshua. But could you try putting the text next to it (on the left)?

Am Montag, 17. Dezember 2012 schrieb Joshua Anderson :

k Great.

Thanks.

On Dec 17, 2012, at 2:15 AM, David Heinemeier Hansson < notifications@github.com <javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', 'notifications@github.com');>> wrote:

Joshua, as long as they stop referring to using RailwayJS, it's all good.

On Dec 17, 2012, at 1:17, Joshua Anderson <notifications@github.com<javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', 'notifications@github.com');>> wrote:

@dhh Yet to be discussed is wether people who have already build projects under the RailwayJS brand (and it is at their projects core) will be affected by the trademark infringement. Could you comment on your actions towards those individuals / projects?

To be more specific I am speaking of people who have built websites with what was the prior versions of RailwayJS.

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub.

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub.

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHubhttps://github.com/1602/express-on-railway/issues/209#issuecomment-11432419.

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