Project shutdown : can we help?

Extreme79 commented 3 months ago

Hi! I'm thinking that we can help the the project to survive and help us to maintain the integration with home assistant alive.

We are a lot of users, and we can massively write to Haier Europe. The project damage Haier? It's a little hilarious.. Anyway.. What do you think about a creation of petition or a common email to Haier?

raymondjstone commented 3 months ago

I'll be complaining for sure. I can also setup private hosting of the repo if that helps (or you could use bit bucket etc that have a free but private option)

atmezferix commented 3 months ago

Can't believe they want this shutdown what backward thinking. Little annoyed literally just bought an appliance after checking if there was a home assistant plugin for it this weekend and now its been shutdown. These companies need to re-think their strategy. What is the difference if you are accessing it from you phone or another device, just doesn't make sense.

cybertorture commented 3 months ago

Just point us where to fill a little complain. What the hell is "causing significant economic harm" ? Phone app is hilarious, almost anytime i use it it ask for credentials again and again ... This better be joke ;)

mcneilc commented 3 months ago

Contact form here though not for complaints

https://www.hoover-home.com/en_GB/contact-form/

Benniepie commented 3 months ago

I also bought two Haier appliances because of their ability to connect to home assistant. I was looking at their dishwashers to add a third and even recommend them to friends. They are shooting themselves in the foot massively - the DIY smart home market is huge.

I saw that the project is to be shut down, is that purely on the basis of Haier's message or has Home Assistant / Github insisted on it? Talk of "attorneys / legal action" will only work if you are in the same jurisdiction, it seems like a scare tactic and I agree with OP - as Haier customers we should make some noise and share the responsibility for the integration however we can to keep it going.

imagine if the repository was archived and as a user base, we were to all fork the project individually in order to continue using it, there'd be multiple copies of the code, managed by users all over the world all connecting into Haier's systems. Haier aren't going to take every one of us to court, irrespective of the legal arguments, taking your loyal customers to court is not a good look for any company and a sure fire way to lose them. If the issue is they have any technical concerns about the integration they could raise them and they can be fixed. Just shows they don't understand the potential of the DIY smart home market.

Happy to help share the burden however would help.

digital-knave commented 3 months ago

Guess you can also send email complaints here. This is specific to the app team I think:

support.hon@haier-europe.com

delboydell commented 3 months ago

if I dont update will the addon still continue to work ?

Kfrard commented 3 months ago

if I dont update will the addon still continue to work ?

you can update, addon still working. the author must remove the code from the Internet.

raymondjstone commented 3 months ago

Just one thing there, while Haier should if anything be offering to purchase the addon (concept or code) and not forcing it to go offline it is possible that the addon does incur economic damage to Haier, it depends on how it works, but I think the most likely 'reason' they can give for this is the addon triggering a constant stream of api calls throughout the day whereas you would only otherwise use their shitty app for a very short period, so in theory they can probably claim correctly that the addon costs them financially (I would however think a great deal given it is only HA users). While the addon will keep working when taken down, it would then probably be a simple matter to either stop it working by changing the api or it's authentication but it will take them a while to do that I hope since they would need to push out mobile app changes first.

I would add that for the HA integration is a must, no more Haier devices for me given this.

and7ey commented 3 months ago

We need to investigate further how to control Haier devices locally.

Kfrard commented 3 months ago

We need to investigate further how to control Haier devices locally.

I am also looking for such a possibility. I found the project https://community.home-assistant.io/t/esp-haier-haier-air-conditioner-esp-home-wemos-d1-mini/127880 although, I have the impression that there are two versions, Haier and Haier Europe which is why, among other things, my air conditioning does not work.

Andre0512 commented 3 months ago

Many thanks for all the support. We have put a lot of work into this integration and I am very disappointed in Haier. This integration brings Haier added value free of charge and I find it appalling how it is being handled. I will not take the project down immediately and simply let Haier win. Using the api should not be illegal. If the significant economic damage is caused by us making too many requests with the integration, we can talk about it and slow it down. Luckily I'm insured. I've contacted my legal expenses insurance and they're covering a lawyer for the case. I will seek advice and see how an expert assesses the situation and then proceed.

Benniepie commented 3 months ago

We need to investigate further how to control Haier devices locally.

Definitely.

Perhaps by redirecting the cloud server dns on our home networks and then run a local server to Imitate the cloud.

I have a feeling my washer and dryer are esp32 based. Despite their size they may have the brains of a lightbulb! I will do some digging. If they are esp32 based we may not need to reinvent the wheel for custom firmware as many will have gone that way before us

I have sent a complaint to Haier customer support via email and the app tonight. Will try twitter next. And then I have some 1* amszon/trustpilot/etc reviews to write, but will see if they respond first.

hectorzin commented 3 months ago

support.hon@haier-europe.com

I have wrote. We all need to wrote, and say that What they need to do is provide an official integration with Home Assistant yourselves and not wait for third parties to develop them

hectorzin commented 3 months ago

I think they have written to scare, they are probably trying to monopolize the market. Just like they forced Apple to use USB-C to allow compatibility, this is something similar. They cannot prohibit something that is yours from communicating with your home automation, but they are using fear tactics

animalillo commented 3 months ago

This makes no sense, i will not buy any more haier products, what's the point of getting an IoT thing if i can't integrate it into home assistant then?

aspett commented 3 months ago

Not sure how a violation of terms of service is relevant to you, the plugin author, unless you're violating those terms yourself or proxying requests for others. Glad to hear you have insurance.

MrSleeps commented 3 months ago

I think they have written to scare, they are probably trying to monopolize the market. Just like they forced Apple to use USB-C to allow compatibility, this is something similar. They cannot prohibit something that is yours from communicating with your home automation, but they are using fear tactics

But they can demand that an unofficial app/script doesn't access their api.

I don't agree with what they are doing but they are perfectly within their rights to send a c&d.

hectorzin commented 3 months ago

retweet and telle everybody you know to retweet https://twitter.com/hectormjuste/status/1747183924722253955

Extreme79 commented 3 months ago

But they can demand that an unofficial app/script doesn't access their api.

I'm not totally agree with that. We are accessing the API with our users and passwords to our data about our appliances. APIs are used without any type of brute force. We are simply using what they publicy left available. Don't want people use API? Lock it. You want a restricted usage? Make it available through a more clear API access with an api key, with limits to avoid servers overload.. And make all happy. Probably is not clear to Haier how much this integration helped to sell appliances..

Stoatwblr commented 3 months ago

Haier don't have a legal leg to stand on in Europe (Article 6 of the EU software directive applies) or the DMCA (Interoperability work is protected)

APIs are not private and Haier are attempting a "prior restraint on trade" (words which will make most regulators prick up their ears and take interest) by way of enforcing vendor lockin

I have flagged this to some tech journalists and suggested they get comment from regulators/EFF

Someone needs to flag this to German regulators - they take this kind of behaviour extremely seriously and will quite happily drag Haier over the coals (I'm outside the EU thanks to Brexit, so can't do it)

Haier have probably just kicked a hornets' nest and are about to reap the consequences

subw0ofer commented 3 months ago

Just sent this to support.hon@haier-europe.com

Dear Haier-Team,

I have seen your Haier Europe Security and Governance Department have threaten open source developer Andre0512 to shut down two github projects with legal actions. They stated Haier is suffering significant economic harm form providing integration of Haier products to home-assistant. I don´t see where economic harm could occur from providing good integrations in widely used home automation software.

Having good integration in home-assistant is a competitive advantage nowadays. So Haier has a economic advantage from these projects.

I personally, and I think any other home-assistant user, chose the manufacturer with the possibility of integration into their home automation.

Please reconsider your actions against open source developers. Manufacturers prohibiting open source integration will definitely land on my "no buy" list.

fabiulous commented 3 months ago

Also sent an email based of @subw0ofer

Dear Haier-Team,

I have seen your Haier Europe Security and Governance Department have threaten open source developer Andre0512 to shut down two github projects with legal actions. They stated Haier is suffering significant economic harm form providing integration of Haier products to home-assistant. I don't see where economic harm could occur from providing good integrations in widely used home automation software.

Having a good integration with home-assistant is a competitive advantage. So Haier has a economic advantage from these projects. I for once wouldn't buy Haier if not for an existing API integration with my existing home automation solution. And no, hOn is not an option. If not for this integration I would have bought Samsung, LG or Mitsubishi.

Personally, and I think any other home-assistant users, chose the manufacturer with the possibility of integration into their home automation.

Please reconsider your actions against open source developers. Manufacturers prohibiting open source integration will definitely land on my "no buy" list. Manufacturers without these integrations will land on my "not recommended" list for any contacts I have.

Best regards

droeloe1818 commented 3 months ago

I've send this mail to Hayer.

Dear Haier Europe Security and Governance Department,

I am writing to express my disappointment and concern regarding the recent communication I read on Github, stating that Haier Europe wishes to have the GitHub project developed by the open-source developer Andre0512 closed.

Firstly, I want to emphasize that I consciously chose Haier as my preferred air conditioning brand because of its compatibility with the open-source project created by Andre0512. The integration with Home Assistant, facilitated by Andre0512's work (https://github.com/Andre0512/hon and https://github.com/Andre0512/pyhOn), played a pivotal role in my decision to opt for Haier products.

Understanding that Haier prioritizes the protection of its intellectual property, I would like to express my sincere regret if the company perceives the mentioned integration as a violation of terms of service. However, it is important to note that the project in question has significantly contributed to enhancing the user experience and functionality of Haier products within the context of home automation.

It is with great disappointment that I learned about Haier's request to close down this open-source project. As a loyal customer who was planning to purchase two additional Haier air conditioners, I am now reconsidering my decision due to the potential discontinuation of support for the Home Assistant integration.

I understand the importance of protecting intellectual property, but I believe there might be alternative solutions or compromises that can be explored. I kindly urge Haier to reconsider the decision to close down the project and to explore an amicable resolution that would not only protect the company's interests but also preserve the positive experiences of customers like myself who appreciate the added value provided by the open-source community.

If Haier decides to proceed with the closure of the project, it is with regret that I may need to explore other air conditioning brands that offer compatibility with my home automation system. This decision would not be taken lightly, as I have been satisfied with Haier's products and services.

I sincerely hope that Haier Europe will consider the impact on loyal customers like myself and explore alternatives that can maintain a positive relationship between the company and the open-source community.

Thank you for your understanding, and I look forward to hearing from you soon.

Best regards,

Andre0512 commented 3 months ago

Someone needs to flag this to German regulators - they take this kind of behaviour extremely seriously and will quite happily drag Haier over the coals (I'm outside the EU thanks to Brexit, so can't do it)

That sounds like another good option! Do you know who i can contact in Germany?

Andre0512 commented 3 months ago

Thank you for all your support! Btw, this was the e-mail address that contacted me: cybergovernance@haier-europe.com

droeloe1818 commented 3 months ago

Thank you for all your support! Btw, this was the e-mail address that contacted me: cybergovernance@haier-europe.com

Thanks, forwarded the mail to that adress.

droeloe1818 commented 3 months ago

I suggest to lets wait if this does somtehing. If they decide to continue this I suggest next step is contacting CEO's and mangers of Haier on Linkedin.

I hope we don't have to take it that route.

Kfrard commented 3 months ago

I contacted the Polish media and will try to find out whether the Office of Competition and Consumer Protection is able to do something. Let's hope that Haier will not succeed in this blockade.

hectorzin commented 3 months ago

Haier don't have a legal leg to stand on in Europe (Article 6 of the EU software directive applies) or the DMCA (Interoperability work is protected)

APIs are not private and Haier are attempting a "prior restraint on trade" (words which will make most regulators prick up their ears and take interest) by way of enforcing vendor lockin

I have flagged this to some tech journalists and suggested they get comment from regulators/EFF

Someone needs to flag this to German regulators - they take this kind of behaviour extremely seriously and will quite happily drag Haier over the coals (I'm outside the EU thanks to Brexit, so can't do it)

Haier have probably just kicked a hornets' nest and are about to reap the consequences

This is what I said, it is not legal, but they try to send a message to the developer to try he being in panic

hectorzin commented 3 months ago

Companies do not like it when people speak ill of them on social media. You should tweet and retweet as much as possible, and retweet all responses while always referring to @HaierAppliances. You can also try Instagram. Maybe my tweet is not the best one, but any proposal is welcome

erpayo commented 3 months ago

it is possible that the addon does incur economic damage to Haier, it depends on how it works, but I think the most likely 'reason' they can give for this is the addon triggering a constant stream of api calls throughout the day

best solution for this is to provide a well designed and documented API. Even better, a local API; with a local API no load in their servers is generated.

I bought a Haier tumble dryer on December. The home assistant integration was the decision maker point. Without the integration the wifi connection is totally useless.

finalbillybong commented 3 months ago

I have also sent an email to both of the addresses listed above. This integration has been genuinely fantastic and one of the best things about my extensive Home Assistant setup. It will be a damn shame if it gets shut down....

Speaking of which, @Andre0512 - can I buy you a coffee?

Coffee bought! Best 5 euros I've spent in ages - I encourage all to do the same.

Kfrard commented 3 months ago

Speaking of which, @Andre0512 - can I buy you a coffee?

I also bought coffee, it's really worth it :) https://github.com/Andre0512/hon#support

raymondjstone commented 3 months ago

my email

It is with regret and some measure of disgust that I saw your attempts to interrupt an open source application that integrates your devices with Home Assistant (something you don’t do) and makes up for the deficiencies in your mobile app not to mention removing the irritations it constantly causes by it’s poor design and interface.

Your email is seems was

{the email from them here}

As well as the extremely poor attitude to customers who to be frank only bought your products over a rivals due to the HA integration, which again I repeat you do not provide at all, you appear to be making some claims that I doubt you can substantiate with any degree of certainty.

Firstly you HAVE had sales that you would otherwise have got because this integration exists (so you benefit economically)
You claim that the activity is illegal but that may not actually the case and may well depend on what jurisdiction the author abides in and how that jurisdiction defines the use of API’s that are publicly accessible.
You claim economic harm but I would doubt you can prove well enough to be accepted as evidence in court that THIS repo of this integration is the cause of whatever loss you claim since it’s activity will be coming from many sources (each user) and not via a single server or endpoint that you could reliably attribute to this repo and only this repo, and given that the only possible loss you could claim would be for costs associated with the use of the publicly accessible API the inability to prove without any possible alternative explanation it comes from here would undermine your case to what I suspect would be a fatal degree.
You also claim that the user is in violation of your terms of service which in itself would thereby confirm that it’s publicly accessible, but fail to explain which term you believe it to be breaking, and if, as you then claim, it’s unauthorised it would be clear that the terms of service were not agreed upon, you can’t have it both ways.

I would strongly encourage you to reach out to this and any other similar integration to works cooperatively with the authors, or purchase and maintain the integration yourself rather then dig yourself into a locked down system where you will reduce any future white good sales.

Regards

Raymond Stone

hectorzin commented 3 months ago

it is possible that the addon does incur economic damage to Haier, it depends on how it works, but I think the most likely 'reason' they can give for this is the addon triggering a constant stream of api calls throughout the day

best solution for this is to provide a well designed and documented API. Even better, a local API; with a local API no load in their servers is generated.

I bought a Haier tumble dryer on December. The home assistant integration was the decision maker point. Without the integration the wifi connection is totally useless.

best if you know how to develop it, it is not so easy

Webbeh commented 3 months ago

Good afternoon.

I have been made aware of a cease and desist originated by your company towards open source projects available on github (https://github.com/Andre0512/hon and https://github.com/Andre0512/pyhOn) that are allegedly in violation of your terms and services.

First of all, when you threaten people with terms and services, they must exist - and be publicly available - in the first place.

Secondly, I would like to understand what you consider "illegal activities". Reverse engineering a product is not illegal. Making something better out of it definitely isn't either.

While this all may very well be your right, I would like to emphasize that I think it is a really terrible idea that is going completely against an open future of the internet of things. This will also ensure that any activity regarding this plugin will now most likely continue in a more secretive manner, which benefits absolutely no one.

Moreover, that integration works properly, as opposed to your lousy excuse of a phone app.
- Login sessions are never saved properly and I am asked to login again every single time I'm using your app (as well as go through the tutorial again and again)
- Some features seem completely broken (I have a wash&dry that sometimes dries even though I'm running a wash only program, the steam option is selectable on some programs but doesn't work when launched by the machine, etc)
- It's awfully slow
- Notifications just randomly stop working on one device if more than one is logged at the same time
- Not to mention all the scaling issues with higher DPI phones, layout issues on foldables and some tablets, and the general UX

I also fail to see how closing up the aforementioned home-assistant integration will cause "significant economic harm" on your end. Granted there will be a few more API calls here and there, but if your machines are not able to withstand that trafic (which is quite literally dirt cheap right now) or the extra little load associated with it, maybe you do not deserve us as customers. In this day and age, you can quite literally handle millions of requests a second with a second hand laptop and a cable internet connection.

I can see you coming with the "security" issues as well, but don't even bother. If there were any security holes discovered and/or used for nefarious reasons because if this plugin, rest assured they would have been found regardless.

All of this is without talking about the fact my machine was broken out of the box (door latch not opening), that the build quality is poor at best, and that every single aftersales support company around my location that had to deal with you has completely stopped doing support for you.

I purchased my wash&dry for a few reasons :
- It had a steam option
- It could dry clothes
- It had an usable API or an integration with Home-Assistant

You removed one of its key features from me. The build quality, poor service and now this will ensure I will no longer buy or recommend any Candy, Hoover or Haier (including any future affiliated brand) for any reason.

In the meantime, I will personally keep the integration working for myself, as your app is a total nightmare to deal with. This message will also be copy-pasted in the aforementioned github for everyone to see.

With my sympathy for people in your company who are not in charge of this kind of decision.

ms264556 commented 3 months ago

Glad to hear you're going to see how this shakes out rather than folding.

I also received an email from a manufacturer insisting I remove GitHub content which broke their T&C's. I think this is a standard tactic.

Although tempted to just ignore them, I replied back explaining how the code in question was created without agreeing to their T&C's (their APIs are discoverable from public webpages) and offered to remove/rework any content which they could demonstrate was illegal. Their subsequent responses dropped any T&C claims and concentrated on regulatory requirements.

lanerobertlane commented 3 months ago

I think the EU regulation mentioned above is likely part of the retained regulations post Brexit in the UK https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/intellectual-property-and-retained-european-union-law-the-facts/retained-eu-law-for-intellectual-property

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/eudr/2009/24/article/6

Benniepie commented 3 months ago

There's been a decent flurry of discontent aimed st Haier from the Home Assistant community on Twirter. Hopefully it will igrow. I tagged a load of Haier,Hoover and Candy accounts, a few youtubers and the official homeassistant accounts.

Next step is to figure out their org structure and start indivual senior managers.

And finally if the automation does atop working and my laundry piles up, I'm sure I can automate rhe proess of randomly choosing a different Haier office each day and sending them a specially selected, extra mature, pair of dirty undies to show My appreciation hehe

and7ey commented 3 months ago

I suggest to give 1-star rating to their official apps at Google Play / AppStore mentioning this case.

Doktor-X commented 3 months ago

Maybe LTT can talk about it on WAN show

bliekp commented 3 months ago

I have sent Haier an email on both adresses and I sent an email to the Free Software Foundation Europe to make them aware of this issue (fsfe.org). Hopefully Haier will see the error in it's ways soon... Also sent an email to Dutch tech website Tweakers.net to make them aware of this.

For me, this plugin was an important reason to buy a Haier washing machine and dryer last autumn.

Webbeh commented 3 months ago

There's been a decent flurry of discontent aimed st Haier from the Home Assistant community on Twirter. Hopefully it will igrow. I tagged a load of Haier,Hoover and Candy accounts, a few youtubers and the official homeassistant accounts.

Next step is to figure out their org structure and start indivual senior managers.

And finally if the automation does atop working and my laundry piles up, I'm sure I can automate rhe proess of randomly choosing a different Haier office each day and sending them a specially selected, extra mature, pair of dirty undies to show My appreciation hehe

No need to be THAT petty 🙃

Let's hope this gets resolved.

Maybe LTT can talk about it on WAN show

Not sure it's their can of worms but sure.

Tikosso commented 3 months ago

Short e-mail:

Due to the information regarding the closure of the HON integration project with Home Assistant, I urge Haier to withdraw from the steps taken. The main factor influencing my purchase of your air conditioners was the possibility of control via HA. If integration is impossible in the future, I will be forced to look for other solutions.

Best regards and please consider positively the request of Home Assistant users.

vlijmen commented 3 months ago

Just send an email as well, there was only one reason why I chose for my current dryer 3 months ago. Support through a plugin for HomeAssistant so now this would become totally useless and I payed to much for the device. Of course no legal reason, but they should look at other companies that support developers in their plugins through their api's.

hectorzin commented 3 months ago

There's been a decent flurry of discontent aimed st Haier from the Home Assistant community on Twirter. Hopefully it will igrow. I tagged a load of Haier,Hoover and Candy accounts, a few youtubers and the official homeassistant accounts.

Next step is to figure out their org structure and start indivual senior managers.

And finally if the automation does atop working and my laundry piles up, I'm sure I can automate rhe proess of randomly choosing a different Haier office each day and sending them a specially selected, extra mature, pair of dirty undies to show My appreciation hehe

Good idea about youtubers, I am not really a youtuber but I just uploaded this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2rEVW0grsk

Is is in spanish, baybe someone could do one in englush, spanish and english covers a high percentage of users in the world

KameDomotics commented 3 months ago

hOn app = free hOn service = free hOn cloud = free Home Assistant = free Home Assistant hOn integration = free

WHERE IS THE ECONOMIC DAMAGE?

MattCheetham commented 3 months ago

I've emailed too. Hope you can fight them on this.

gpelleja commented 3 months ago

Emailed too to both emails on this thread

Andre0512 / hon

Project shutdown : can we help? #147