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ArctosDB / arctos

Arctos is a museum collections management system
https://arctos.database.museum
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sex "unknown" #1237

Closed dustymc closed 3 years ago

dustymc commented 7 years ago

http://arctos.database.museum/info/ctDocumentation.cfm?table=CTSEX_CDE

"unknown" is inconsistently defined, but the implication/partial definition is "no data." We have the option to just say nothing, or not create data. I'm not sure that the fifth (6th if we're counting saying nothing!) way of saying we don't know adds clarity.

Can we just delete sex=unknown?

Jegelewicz commented 7 years ago

I am perfectly fine with eliminating sex=unknown - don't know if someone else needs it for some reason though...

ekrimmel commented 7 years ago

+1 on deleting sex=unknown

amgunderson commented 7 years ago

Sex is a required attribute for mammals so if you delete unknown then make the field no longer required.

dustymc commented 7 years ago

required attribute for mammals s

Ah yes, that's where this comes from. I think the thought process was that forcing students to pick SOMETHING was better than allowing them to just ignore a "field." IF that works, it probably/maybe justifies keeping "unknown." @amgunderson this is your call I think....

jldunnum commented 7 years ago

I think I would like to keep "unknown" because it provides more data than a null value, which could mean the sex is unknown or that the data for sex were just not entered.

Jonathan L. Dunnum Ph.D. Senior Collection Manager Division of Mammals, Museum of Southwestern Biology University of New Mexico Albuquerque, NM 87131 (505) 277-9262 Fax (505) 277-1351

MSB Mammals website: http://www.msb.unm.edu/mammals/index.html Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/MSBDivisionofMammals

Shipping Address: Museum of Southwestern Biology Division of Mammals University of New Mexico CERIA Bldg 83, Room 204 Albuquerque, NM 87131

From: dustymc notifications@github.com Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2017 9:43:28 AM To: ArctosDB/arctos Cc: Subscribed Subject: Re: [ArctosDB/arctos] sex "unknown" (#1237)

required attribute for mammals s

Ah yes, that's where this comes from. I think the thought process was that forcing students to pick SOMETHING was better than allowing them to just ignore a "field." IF that works, it probably/maybe justifies keeping "unknown." @amgundersonhttps://github.com/amgunderson this is your call I think....

— You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHubhttps://github.com/ArctosDB/arctos/issues/1237#issuecomment-323112182, or mute the threadhttps://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AQeng8JVrMH4VW8XfdKpaf6mGW76bhcPks5sZF-fgaJpZM4O2jdm.

dustymc commented 7 years ago

@jldunnum no real objections, but there are several options for "we don't know."

  1. NULL/no attribute==>we have nothing to say on the matter
  2. unknown==>intent same as NULL I think, "we have no information." This needs defined globally if we're to keep it. ("There are no data in the form of a label or field notes. That is, no determination, or attempted determination is available." seems reasonable to me and could just be pushed to all collection types.)
  3. not recorded ==>There is data in the form of a label or field notes, and there is no mention of sex.
  4. recorded as unknown ==>There are data in the form of a label or field notes, and these indicate that the examiner was unable to determine the sex.

That last one may need the definition adjusted, but I think the intent is "we looked, still don't know."

https://arctos.database.museum/info/ctDocumentation.cfm?table=CTSEX_CDE

jldunnum commented 7 years ago

Agreed, I guess from my perspective it probably comes down to us doing a better job of training on which terms to use when we are doing our data entry. To date we certainly have a mix of those terms and they are likely not all applied correctly or consistantly.

Jonathan L. Dunnum Ph.D. Senior Collection Manager Division of Mammals, Museum of Southwestern Biology University of New Mexico Albuquerque, NM 87131 (505) 277-9262 Fax (505) 277-1351

MSB Mammals website: http://www.msb.unm.edu/mammals/index.html Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/MSBDivisionofMammals

Shipping Address: Museum of Southwestern Biology Division of Mammals University of New Mexico CERIA Bldg 83, Room 204 Albuquerque, NM 87131

From: dustymc notifications@github.com Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2017 10:06:41 AM To: ArctosDB/arctos Cc: Jonathan Dunnum; Mention Subject: Re: [ArctosDB/arctos] sex "unknown" (#1237)

@jldunnumhttps://github.com/jldunnum no real objections, but there are several options for "we don't know."

  1. NULL/no attribute==>we have nothing to say on the matter
  2. unknown==>intent same as NULL I think, "we have no information." This needs defined globally if we're to keep it. ("There are no data in the form of a label or field notes. That is, no determination, or attempted determination is available." seems reasonable to me and could just be pushed to all collection types.)
  3. not recorded ==>There is data in the form of a label or field notes, and there is no mention of sex.
  4. recorded as unknown ==>There are data in the form of a label or field notes, and these indicate that the examiner was unable to determine the sex.

That last one may need the definition adjusted, but I think the intent is "we looked, still don't know."

https://arctos.database.museum/info/ctDocumentation.cfm?table=CTSEX_CDE

— You are receiving this because you were mentioned. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHubhttps://github.com/ArctosDB/arctos/issues/1237#issuecomment-323119045, or mute the threadhttps://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AQeng16V5H_w-M_lEswCLJHYszOxLrACks5sZGUQgaJpZM4O2jdm.

dustymc commented 7 years ago

Not to hijack my own thread TOO much, but ideas for getting definitions in front of users ALWAYS appreciated. There are "define" links in most (all?? Let me know if you find one missing!) forms now, but I'm not sure anyone clicks them.

Jegelewicz commented 3 years ago

Reviving this given our discussion in AWG today. Here is what is in the code table now:

term definition
not recorded There is data in the form of a label or field notes, and there is no mention of sex.
recorded as unknown There are data in the form of a label or field notes, and these indicate that the examiner was unable to determine the sex.
unknown There are no data in the form of a label or field notes. That is, no determination, or attempted determination is available.

In the AWG meeting, it appeared that there was consensus that we need to remove all but "unknown". Here is what I suggest:

not recorded - change any use of this to "unknown" and add "sex was not recorded" to the method for the attribute recorded as unknown - change any use of this to "unknown" and add "examiner was unable to determine the sex." to the method for the attribute

dustymc commented 3 years ago

nevermind see #3516 for '..?'

Can we proceed with https://github.com/ArctosDB/arctos/issues/1237#issuecomment-797082947?

dustymc commented 3 years ago

Merging with https://github.com/ArctosDB/arctos/issues/3516