Code Table Request - add hyobranchial apparatus as a new part for HERPS

[atrox10]

Goal and Context I need a new part hyobranchial apparatus

to be add as a part for Herps. This is different than the hyoid bone. The hyobranchial apparatus is studied in many amphibians, especially salamanders. We have many specimens where this has been removed from cleared and stained specimens and is a separate part, so I would like to be able to upload the hybranchial apparatus as another part.

Table It would be in the part table: specimen_part_name

Proposed Value hyobranchial apparatus or just hyobranchial

Proposed Definition [ Clear, complete, non-collection-type-specific definition of the new value. ]

Collection type Herps

Priority High

[Jegelewicz]

@atrox10 please provide a definition.

[atrox10]

I would call it hyobranchial apparatus. It's the tongue skeleton in amphibians. In Plethodontid salamanders, the hyobranchial apparatus can include ceratohyal, ceratobranchial, urohyal and hyobranchial elements.

[atrox10]

Let me talk to Michelle to get a better definition. Apparently many vertebrate groups have hyobranchial apparati, which are the tongue skeleton (both bony and cartilaginous).

[ewommack]

I got this from Manual of Ornithology The bones of the tongue collectively are called the hyoid apparatus. The central portion of the hyoid apparatus is made up of three bones:

1. paraglossale; 2. basihyal; 3. urohyal Two long, thin horns of bone arise from the junction of the basihyal and basibranchial bones and project posteriorly. Each is composed of two bones:
2. ceratobranchial; 2. epibranchial

From Vertebrate Dissection, 8th ed the hyoid apparatus is made up of parts of four visceral arches - the hyoid arch and the first three branchial arches. The hyoid arch is the most cranial and the largest component. [It then goes on describing the bones in most fish, and has a separate description for reptiles and mammals].

bird tongues are awesome, I bet herp tongues are too

[dustymc]

hyoid apparatus

https://arctos.database.museum/info/ctDocumentation.cfm?table=ctspecimen_part_name#hyoid

[atrox10]

Its not the same as the hyoid. Its different in the salamanders, fish, etc (it's not all a bone). So that's why I want Hyobranchial apparatus for Herps

[ewommack]

I think you mean the hyoid apparatus and accompanying soft structures then? I can't find a single definition in my info books. There are a number of papers on specific taxon: https://repository.up.ac.za/bitstream/handle/2263/52852/Soley_Gross_2015.pdf?sequence=1 or maybe in a veterinary text: https://avianmedicine.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/CAMSB-chapter41.pdf

There's not definitions though...more the muscles of the hyobranchial apparatus are related to tongue movement and swallowing.

[ewommack]

Or "The hyobranchial apparatus consists of four cartilaginous condensations: the basihyal, a pair of epibranchials, and a centrally located element that is trifurcated and seems to be an urohyal-ceratobranchial complex." from here: https://bioone.org/journals/zoological-science/volume-20/issue-6/zsj.20.749/The-Skull-Development-of-Parrots-with-Special-Reference-to-the/10.2108/zsj.20.749.full

[ewommack]

Salamanders: https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3082&context=gbn

[dustymc]

not the same

I'm just asking for definitions which reflect that, so we don't end up with the same things wearing two names, or two things arbitrarily wearing either of two names. (I don't think the wikipedia copypasta is usually very helpful - the definitions should tell me something about what I can find in Arctos, or what I should choose when cataloging. I can figure out what a word means anywhere, the Arctos terms should involve something more than that.)

[mkoo]

The two anatomical terms-- hyoid and hyobranchial apparatus are related but include different anatomical structures depending on how you are referring to them. (interestingly, my old human anatomy text book calls that bony structure supporting the tongue "apparatus hyobranchialis"). Anyway, the current Arctos term for hyoid is not adequate for amphibian biologists, and clearly refers to the hyoid bone, and so excludes all the interesting bits and bobs that amphibian folks are examining (some of which never calcify). Thanks Beth for the Cox and Tanner reference!

my first suggestion: hyobranchial apparatus = (aka hyoid apparatus) is the part of the vertebrate skeletal that supports the muscles of the tongue or buccal cavity and consists of four visceral arches - the hyoid arch (most cranial) and the first three branchial (pharyngeal) arches or its homologues, and may include: basibranchial, basihyal, ceratohyal, ceratobranchial, urohyal and hyobranchial elements. Ontology reference: http://purl.obolibrary.org/obo/UBERON_0010272

(add any missing bird elements)

[atrox10]

Maybe we should call the current hyoid part that’s in Arctos “hyoid bone” then, to distinguish it further. It’s definition says-A horseshoe-shaped bone situated in the anterior midline of the neck between the chin and the thyroid cartilage

[dustymc]

hyobranchial apparatus = (aka hyoid apparatus)

So same?

[Jegelewicz]

How about hyoid apparatus and we link directly here for the definition?

[ewommack]

A horseshoe-shaped bone situated in the anterior midline of the neck between the chin and the thyroid cartilage

I think that might be just humans. The hyoid apparatus is multiple bones in a bird, and I'd go looking in the mouth for it not the neck.

I think we're going to have both the hyoid apparatus and the hyobranchial apparatus. Unfortunately the elements of one are part of the other, but it is not true for some groups to say they equal.

[mkoo]

yeah not quite the same... see the definition I supplied -- hyobranchial apparatus includes additional branchial arches. It's more clear and standard for amphibian work but would also be appropriate for fish or maybe other taxa. Some people may also call it hyoid apparatus but not quite the same since hyobranchial explicitly includes other arches.

the Arctos definition for hyoid is definitely human-centric -- doesnt need to be "hyoid bone" but you might want to make that definition a little less specific (have you seen a gator hyoid? not u-shaped! or any lizard's?)

[mkoo]

You guys good?! I can update the ct and close. if so.

[dustymc]

I think we (CT group) are still confused - the defs don't make it clear when a data entry user would pick one or the other. If they're different that should be clear, if they're not or that can't be made clear then a mutually-acceptable term/definition should be found.

I think "hyoid" (current part) isn't just bone and the wiki copypasta definition is adding, not removing, confusion - updating that to suggest bone only without confirming with collections might make things lots worse.

In general, we need some policy of better coordinating definitions with existing parts.

[ewommack]

I'm good with the broader definition for hyobranchial apparatus. We'll have to revisit the hyoid apparatus one when I've got more brain power. I bet there is a difference between the hyoid apparatus and hyobranchial apparatus for birds, but I can't find a specific definition. The ones I gave above where just for the bones, since those come out really nicely in a bird skeleton. Making sure to include in the definition that the hyobranchial apparatus is both bones and accompanying cartilaginous arches will keep me from snagging it for hyoid apparatus.

I may be saving more of the hyobrancial apparatus when I pull out and save a wet part of the tongue in a bird, but I'm still going to just say tongue. I wonder if speaking to paleo collections may help with birds... @atrox10? You needed the different apparatus.

[mkoo]

my definition is clear that the hyobranchial apparatus includes 4 branchial arches. Hyoid does not and tends to be used for vertebrates which have a ossified hyoid. If user is dealing with an amphibian it will be clear.

[atrox10]

Can we make this part for Herps - hyobranchial apparatus PLEASE? as I need to add these as separate cleared and stained parts for a bunch of salamanders so I can put them away.

On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 4:45 PM Michelle Koo @.***> wrote:

my definition is clear that the hyobranchial apparatus includes 4 branchial arches. Hyoid does not and tends to be used for vertebrates which have a ossified hyoid. If user is dealing with an amphibian it will be clear.

— Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/ArctosDB/arctos/issues/5186#issuecomment-1289786807, or unsubscribe https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/ABCJF4JS3D5JF67LGY42NDTWE4NQFANCNFSM6AAAAAARJQCMS4 . You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID: @.***>

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http://mvz.berkeley.edu/Herp_Collection.html http://www.vertnet.org

[Jegelewicz]

AWG Issues - just add.

[mkoo]

just added: hyobranchial apparatus for HERPS DEFN: The part of the vertebrate skeletal, typically in amphibians and reptiles, that supports the muscles of the tongue or buccal cavity and consists of four visceral arches - the hyoid arch (most cranial) and the first three branchial (pharyngeal) arches or its homologues, and may include: basibranchial, basihyal, ceratohyal, ceratobranchial, urohyal and hyobranchial elements. These component structures may or may not be ossified. Ontology reference: http://purl.obolibrary.org/obo/UBERON_0010272

Let me know if that is clear enough-- if someone has to catalog just the bony hyoid of say a croc, they have that available but I would change the definition to be less human-specific. I'll file a separate issue for you guys to discuss.....