Ilias Kourtizis (Agiassos?, Lesvos)

[Armand1]

By: Helias Kourtzis [iliaskourtzis@hotmail.com] Posted: Monday, 18 May 2020 3:23 PM To: Kokkoris Giorgos Subject: Question

Dear Mr. Kokkori, I am thinking of starting with the flow of those elements that, in a way, confirm the antiquity of home craftsmanship. Although as I understand it it is not your central theme, however I think you may be interested as an accessory to the antiquity and tradition of the pottery, whose photos I will send you with comments gradually. I write "gradually" because due to various problems at some point when I feel tired I stop the activity χαρισ Thank you! Remain Waiting for your reply H.K.

[Armand1]

From: Kokkoris Giorgos <mailto: gkok@aegean.gr> Posted: Monday, 18 May 2020 9:53 pm To: Helias Kourtzis <mailto: iliaskourtzis@hotmail.com> Subject: AP: Question

Hello Mr. Kourtzis, Don't worry about the flow with which you will send any data you deem important. After all, we are not able to solve them in time. That's why you send us whenever you can. You will not burden your health with our work.

Be well

George Kokkoris

[Armand1]

By: Helias Kourtzis [iliaskourtzis@hotmail.com] Posted: Tuesday, 19 May 2020 2:51 am To: Kokkoris Giorgos Subject: AP: Question

I'm not well under demolition !!! Oh, you didn't understand! I was fascinated by the apparent collaboration with you! That's why I immediately send you the oldest piece I have in my collection and it concerns a traditional metric vessel "metridi or metridid". to suppress them. Its capacity: 6.5 okades. Its construction was done by the ancestor of the pottery Kourtzis, Panagiotis Kourtzis, in the middle of the 19th century. (according to my father and great-grandson Nikos Kourtzis). (Dimensions Y: 0.44 m and Width: 0.27 from the maximum points of the curves of the hands).

I also give you a similar metal utensil that was used in Agiasos for the same purpose. I don't know if it was older. The ceramic utensil must have had holes, but its maintainer, who added a piece of his broken neck, omitted them.

For any of your relevant questions, I am always available. Good morning! H.K.

[Armand1]

So, this is fascinating. There is a persistent worry that I have that, when building a phylogeny, I assume that vase shapes are handed down potter to potter. But there is evidence from ancient Greece that potters sometimes copied metal shapes. That's a problem since those metal shapes are not in the phylogeny. Their pottery equivalents will, then, appear as if from nowhere. Perhaps here we have a very similar case. But we have the metal equivalent! So we could, in principle, put it in. Why not?

Is this thing a water jug?

[Armand1]

Genealogy of Kourtizis potters

0. Origin of Kourtizis potting clan?
1. Panagiotis Kourtzis, mid-19th century.
2. ?
3. ?
4. Nikos Kourtzis (great-grandson of Panagiotis)
5. Ilias Kourtizis (current, not a professional potter, but a historian of pots)
6. Elpida Kourtizis (daughter of Ilias, a "regular potter")

We also seem to have, from Ceramic of Lesvos, an Odysseus Kourtzis

[Armand1]

Dear Mr Kourtzis,

First, my apologies for not responding quicker. I was in Holland looking after my mother (92, and unwell)!

The pictures you sent are fascinating. They immediately cast a different light on how potters get their shapes — sometimes from metal equivalents. It’s said that they did so in ancient Greece as well. And that you have a vase that goes back to your great-great-grandfather is amazing. That’s exactly the sort of information we’re looking for. Do you have vases of a similar sort made by Panagiotis’s son, and his son, and his son (your father, Nikos)? It’s the continuity — or its absence that so fascinates me!

with best wishes

Armand

On 23 May 2020, at 18:03, Helias Kourtzis iliaskourtzis@hotmail.com wrote: Dear Mr. Armand As soon as I answered from acquired speed to Mr. George, I see your email !!! ... And of course I can't describe to you the joy you gave me. Of course, a flood will follow (in the good sense) from data that (from what I understand) I think and I hope you find interesting. I agree that in ancient times there was a two-way relationship of morphological equivalence between clay and metal utensils. I would like to hope that your mother's health improves and I wish her a speedy recovery. Friendly H.K.

[Armand1]

By: Helias Kourtzis [iliaskourtzis@hotmail.com] Posted: Monday, 25 May 2020 1:02 am To: Kokkoris Giorgos Subject: Vessels of Agiasotika curtains

I'm sending you the photo of two fires ("fufouds": hearths). As you know, they are ancient cooking utensils, which have hardly changed their form since antiquity. They are utensils that were saved by the laboratory of our generator Panagiotis Kourtzis, (1820-1897-98) and which reached my hands, with great reverence from my father Nikos Kourtzis. As you can see one is in much better condition than the other. Also the shape of the hands differs somewhat, as does the color of the clay. But all of this can be explained by small family workshops. This fact maintains our faith (along with some other findings) for even deeper roots in time, of our family tree. (See recently Agiasos ceramic finds-utensils of N. Liaros at the Museum of Sevres, which are attributed to the first reading of the curtain rods).I will show you tomorrow in another photo the diaphragm of the younger one holding the burning coals. In the 1st it looks clear. In the 2nd it is different, it looks like a grid.

[Armand1]

This is the text that Ilias refers to.

Κείμενο : Nikos Liaros English text editing : Stefanie Stephanie Sampson A French Naval Officer and the Oldest Modern Greek Cooking Pots Most of us know the suburb of Sèvres in Paris for its famous porcelain, but few people may know that one of the oldest and most important ceramics museums is located there. The museum was founded in 1824 in order to create an “ark” of world ceramics. For this reason since its founding it has collected not only ornate porcelain and rare ancient vases, but also modern pottery of everyday use. One of the people who contributed to the creation of the museum's collections was a young naval officer by the name of Julius de Blosseville (fig. 1). This passionate sailor traveled all over the world until 1833 when his ship was lost in the Arctic Circle. On his many journeys he collected ceramics and then sent them on to the Sèvres Museum. During 1830-1832, while patrolling in the Levant with the ship “Alacrity” to counter piracy, he collected and sent to France more than 100 coarse ware pots from the Aegean Archipelago. The islands of Crete, Milos, Sifnos, Syros, Aegina, Lesvos, Chios are some of the places from which the vases collected by Blosseville originated. Some of these ceramics were described briefly in the first published catalogue of the Sèvres Museum in 1845. Later, in late 19th c, these pots were withdrawn from the show cases into the warehouses. In the autumn of 2013 these ceramics were re-discovered, sketched, photographed and for the first time thoroughly studied by Nikos Liaros and Thalassini Bratsou. This collection of ceramics at the Sèvres Museum is the only group of pottery from the Aegean Sea of the early 19th century to be securely dated. This important group provides valuable data about the production and distribution of pottery in the Aegean. A water jug from Lesvos, for example, testifies to a continuity of form and decoration in these ceramics for over two centuries (fig. 2) and a plate from Canak Kale helps us to date similar examples (fig. 3). The oldest known Sifnos cooking pot which was stored in the Sèvres Museum, confirms an older case study demonstrating that these vessels were originally more ovoid and deeper (fig. 2). Some other pottery however, which possess unusual and unique shapes and decoration, indicate the great changes that took place in 19th century Aegean ceramics, as for example a pot from Milos (fig. 4) and another one from Lesvos (fig. 5). The conclusions and questions that emerged from the study of this unique ensemble of pottery are many, and some of them will be presented in a paper at the 12th International Congress on Medieval & Modern Period Mediterranean Ceramics (Athens -National Hellenic Research Foundation, Saturday Oct. 27, 19.00)

[Armand1]

This water pot seems different from the usual design --- with its wide mouth. Is this what Ilias refers to?

[gdkok]

I have no idea. I did not get this email. I only received the one with foufoudes.

[Armand1]

That wasn't an email --- that Laros' post which he was referring to. What are the "curtain rods"?

[gdkok]

He says, κουρτζήδες. It is his family's last name in the plural. As we say, the Burts. Or, Κοκκοραίοι or Κοκκόρηδες. Fucked up in translation. It should be with the first capital letter. Κουρτζής - Κουρτζήδες. Plural of the masculine noun that ends in -ης. Greek language.

[Armand1]

On 25 May 2020, at 17:32, Helias Kourtzis iliaskourtzis@hotmail.com wrote:

Ευχαριστώ για την απάντησή σας, αλλά και την γόνιμη προώθηση του διαλόγου. Θα σας απαντήσω όμως μετά τα μεσάνυχτα, διότι η θυγατέρα μου Ελπίδα, που είναι κανονική κεραμίστρια, μου ζητάει επειγόντως να επιληφθώ ενός σπουδαίου ζητήματος που ανέκυψε και έχει σχέση με την κεραμική των Κουρτζήδων, εκτός του ότι έχω και μια υποχρέωση που σχετίζεται με τη σύζυγό μου και το Νοσοκομείο. Λίγη υπομονή σας παρακαλώ και θα φροντίσω να επανέλθω, διότι έχουμε πολλά να συζητήσουμε.!.. Λυπάμαι για την άθλια μετάφραση. Εις το επανιδείν λοιπόν! Η.Κ. Thank you for your answer, but also for the fruitful promotion of the dialogue. But I will answer you after midnight, because my daughter Elpida, who is a regular potter, urgently asks me to deal with a great issue that has arisen and is related to the pottery of Kourtzides, apart from the fact that I have an obligation related to my wife. me and the Hospital. Please be patient and I will make sure to come back, because we have a lot to discuss.! .. I am sorry for the miserable translation. So let's do it again! H.K.

[Armand1]

On 27 May 2020, at 17:31, Helias Kourtzis iliaskourtzis@hotmail.com wrote: Στάλθηκε από την Αλληλογραφία για Windows 10 Καλησπέρα σας! Από τα κεραμικά που βλέπω μπορώ να πω ότι το αριστερό κεραμικό (στάμνα ή κουμάρι) μου είναι περισσότερο οικείο από το δεξί (χυτρα - τέστο), ως κομμάτι του εργαστηρίου Κουρτζή και ως φόρμα και ως διακόσμηση. Αλλά δεν έχει σημασία. Γενικά τα αναγνωρίζα σαν παλιά αγιασώτικα μαγειρικά σκεύη. Βέβαια τις σπείρες στη στάμνα τις ήθελα με πιο πλατιά πινελιά και μκρότερες. Με άλλο email θα σας στείλω μερικές φωτογραφίες για να αντιληφθείτε καλλίτερα τι εννοώ. Σας χαιρετώ και βρίσκομαι πάντα στη διάθεσή σας. Η.Κ.

Good evening! From the ceramics I see I can say that my left ceramic (The Severes pitcher or coumarin) is more familiar than the right (pot - test), as part of the Kourtzis workshop and as a form and as decoration. But it does not matter. I generally recognized them as old Agia cooking utensils. Of course, I wanted the spirals in the pitcher with a wider touch and smaller ones. With another email I will send you some photos to better understand what I mean. I greet you and I am always at your disposal. H.K.

[Armand1]

On 28 May 2020, at 17:56, Helias Kourtzis iliaskourtzis@hotmail.com wrote:

Σας στέλνω μια στάμνα ( 19ος αι.) του προπάτορα (στο εξής θα γράφω Παναγιωτη Κουρτζή ) η οποία με παρόμοια φόρμα και διακόσμηση απεικονίζεται σε ακόμη δύο φωτογραφίες νεότερες: Η 1η είναι στις αρχές της δεκαετίας του 1900 (εργαστηρ. Νικόλα & Ηλία Κουρτζή) και η δεύτερη 1925-1935 (εργαστηρ. Ηλία και Νικου Κουρτζή). Η στάμνα στην τελευταία φωτογραφία είναι αριστερά των τριών σταμνών που απεικνίζονται σε πρώτο πλάνο. Αποτυπώνεται νομίζω στις τερις φωτογραφίες με τη στάμνα αυτή εμφανώς η συνέχεια της παράδοσης.

Dear Mr. Leroi, I am sending you a pitcher (19th century) of the ancestor (hereinafter I will write Panagiotis Kourtzis) which with a similar form and decoration is depicted in two more new photographs: The 1st is in the early 1900s (laboratory: Nikola & Elias Kourtzis) and the second 1925-1935 (laboratory Elias and Nikos Kourtzis). The pitcher in the last photo is to the left of the three pitchers that are set in the foreground. I think the continuation of the tradition is clearly reflected in the four photos with this pitcher.

This, I think, is Panagiotis Kourtzis's pitcher --- mid-19th C (really?)

early 1900s. Nikola & Elias Kourtzis workshop

1925-1935 Elias and Nikos Kourtzis workshop. See left hand pitcher.

[gdkok]

---

From: Helias Kourtzis iliaskourtzis@hotmail.com Sent: Monday, June 1, 2020 7:30:02 PM To: Kokkoris Giorgos gkok@aegean.gr Subject: Στάμνες

Αγαπητοί φίλοι, Ευχαριστώ για την απάντησή σας. Οι φωτογραφίες που είδατε είναι ένα μέρος του αρχείου που έχω. Οσον αφορά για τις στάμνες της φωτογραφίας της εφημερίδας έχουν το ίδιο τρίφυλλο μοτίβο (αγιασώτικο – κουρτζήδικο) και πράγματι ως προς τη φόρμα είναι κάπως διαφορετικες από τις άλλες δύο, αλλά το εργαστήριο Κουρτζή ήταν πάντα το μεγαλύτερο εργαστήριο της Αγιάσου, που απασχολούσε σχετικά πολλούς εργατες και τεχνίτες (απ’ αυτούς κάποιοι ήταν μόνιμοι και κάποιοι έκτακτοι) και δεν αποκλείεται να υπήρχαν διαφοροποιήσεις στις φόρμες του τροχού, κάποια στιγμή ή κάποια εποχή. Σας στέλνω μια φωτογραφία μεγάλης αρχειακής αξίας, όπου εικονίζεται σε στιγμιότυπο μαθητείας η προγιαγιά μου η Βασιλική Κουρτζή, σύζυγος Νικόλα Κουρτζή να διακοσμεί στάμνες ακραιφνώς κουρτζήδικες μαζί με την εγγονή της και θεία μου Ευστρατία Κουρτζή Παραμυθέλλη . Σας στέλνω και μια φωτογραφία τη; Δεκαετίας του 1950, όπου εικονίζεται ο παππούς μου Ηλίας με τον θείο μου και συνεργάτη του πατέρα μου Χαράλαμπο Πανταζή στο εκθετήριο του εργαστηρίου της οικογένειας.. Κοιτάξτε τις στάμνες αριστερά κάτω στο δάπεδο – δεν μοιάζουν με όσες σας έχω δείξει μέχρι τώρα. Επίσης σας στέλνω μια αποψη από το παλιό εκθετήριο του εργαστήριου (1925). Φαίνονται αρκετές στάμνες. Υπήρξε μια εποχή που έφτιαχναν πολλούς κουλέδες, άωτες για εξαγωγή στην Αίγυπτο. Και μια ακόμη φωτογραφία δεκαετίας 1970 με νεώτερες στάμνες, με μοτίβα όμως παμπάλαια. Και ουκ έστι τέλος… Με τους Κουρτζήδες, αγαπητοί φίλοι δύσκολα να βρεις άκρη. Ηταν, πιστεύω, ένα από τα πιο δραστήρια, παραγωγικά και πολυσχιδή εργαστήρια της νεοελληνικής κεραμικής. Όταν με το καλό έρθετε από το εργαστήριο έχουμε να πούμε πολλά, αρκεί να έχετε υπομονή. Να έχετε υπόψη ότι υπάρχουν παραλιακά ταβερνάκια, όπου υποχρεωτικά φιλεύουμε στους επισκέπτες μας. (Χαχαχα!)… Να είστε καλά! Και ευχαριστώ για τη μέχρι τούδε συνεργασία, ευελπιστώντας σε συνέχεια. Φιλικά Η.Κ.

Στάλθηκε από την Αλληλογραφίαhttps://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986 για Windows 10