Thaumcraft needs an overhaul

[Mr3DAlien]

So hello, I played through the complete Thaumcraft 6 mod now, and I have something to say. So Thaumcraft 6 isn't really bad, but it isn't really good in comparison to Thaumcraft 4/5. Don't understand me wrong but Thaumcraft was a mod who got from Version to Version better and better. But with Thaumcraft 6 it feels a little bit like a step backwards which I don't really understand. Let me explain. In Thaumcraft we had a good upgrade System for the Arcane Workbench. You needed to upgrade your wand, which basically would upgrade your Arcane Workbench. In Thaumcraft 6 this Aspect is completely missing. Sure there is this charging thing for the Table. But this feels really of place. In Thaumcraft 4 we had cool looking nodes which we need to find and on a later point, we could capture them and Recharge the Wand automatically. The Thaumonomicon feels more like making Quests and not researching anymore. In my point of view Thaumcraft was always the mod about learning things discovering things, but now it feels like making that to get that. I know one of the Reason you implemented the casters gauntlet was because of the bug with the wand going down and up, and also that you can take the glove in your offhand and use it in combination with other tools. I personally even do that, but every other player I see playing Thaumcraft hates to but even one single thing in the offhand. So they use it as a separate Item.

I mean let's be real, what looks better

That one:

or that one:

I am not saying the mod sucks. But it feels like a child who wants to be like his Hero and does a really good job, but never will make it. I don't really understand why you but everything that was in my opinion Thaumcraft and put it into the Trashcan. I know this sounds like I am really angry at you. So I will say it I am not. It just feels so sad that my favourite mod isn't that good anymore as it was.

I know people will now say it is better because it is much easier, but just by making something easier, doesn't mean it is better. Even the point of Research is gone. If you don't want to do it you don't need to do it. I don't understand the point of that, why should someone make the research, when he doesn't need to do it.

Also yes I have seen everything of Thaumcraft 6 so far I played and Let's Played the complete Mod, from beginning to end. Here are some Pictures of my Base:

I am not angry I just want to try to understand why it is in your opinion better, So I really hope to hear something from you, and you can explain me that, maybe you can change my mind an I understand things better then :)

P.S Please People if someone read this don't start with 100000 Reasons why Thaumcraft 6 is better then Thaumcraft 4

[dmarcuse]

TC6 is still in beta, with mechanics being added/reworked frequently. I wouldn't make broad statements like "thaumcraft needs an overhaul" at this stage.

[Mr3DAlien]

Thaumcraft is in beta that's right, But do you think that Wands are planned to get back, Nodes getting back, It is not about Thaumcraft is in beta. The basic things of Thaumcraft now he adds things for the later stage of the game. But it is the core mechanic of Thaumcraft 6 which isn't that great anymore. So

[mfk1016]

I can understand some of your complaints (especially regarding wands and auras), but I think regarding what azanor wants to create, that he wants to do this mod in a new way. And even though I'm still a huge fan of TC4 I can understand him... He's a creator and therefore he wants to invent things rather than redoing the same thing over and over again.

Yes we lost a lot of complexity and difficulty from TC4, but we also gained a lot of new difficulty (a lot more flux, the new infusion mechanic, warp with crimson portals, rifts and taint).

So the lost of wand and auras hurts.. but I'm pretty excited on the new flux mechanic (especially regarding the eldritch stuff if you look at my previous suggestion) and I also think, that he will do a lot of redesign regarding the infusion... so I would wait a little bit and let him finish his work.

I'm also not totally pleased with the current research mechanic (mainly because I'm not a fan of grinding), but I think he will address this.

[Mr3DAlien]

I am not against Azanor I just feel like Thaumcraft lost a lot of his old charm. Many people I watched on stream and some I know personally said that they don't want to do thaumcraft because of the missing wands and so on sucks. I also think if there would be an unofficial port of Thaumcraft 4 for 1.12 more people will use that instead of thaumcraft 6. I really would wish that someone would get the permission to make a Thaumcraft 4 port for 1.12

[Mr3DAlien]

I mean on every new world I started I could begin with Thaumcraft 4 and it would never get boring. But with Thaumcraft 6 I played it ones and now it feels always the same.

[mfk1016]

I mean on every new world I started I could begin with Thaumcraft 4 and it would never get boring. But with Thaumcraft 6 I played it ones and now it feels always the same.

I think the main reason for this feeling is the research mechanic... It is (unlike TC4) pretty repetitive in terms of what you want to research. There is pretty much no difference between gathering the required theories for the artifice unlocker and the arcane bore for example. There needs to be a lot more complexity for researching more advanced stuff I think...

[Mr3DAlien]

I just want to see back nodes and wands to be real then I am fine with most stuff but that is really the missing thing, why can't he make wands like in Thaumcraft 3 where everywhere is Vis in the Aura and you need to take the wand to charge this. I mean a magic table which just takes the vis and you can craft things with it seems really boring. With the wand, there would be the upgrade system again. Because you need a bigger wand to use more Vis on your Table, so you can craft bigger things.

[mfk1016]

I mean a magic table which just takes the vis and you can craft things with it seems really boring. With the wand, there would be the upgrade system again. Because you need a bigger wand to use more Vis on your Table, so you can craft bigger things.

The upgrade system for the arcane workbench is still there I think but it needs more adjustment to actually visualize, that it works slightly different now. The flux limits the amount of vis per chunk and having ways to reduce flux production and to remove flux restores the workbenches capability. This needs to kick in a bit more heavy I think, so the sense of progression by getting the flux under control shines through. Also, having flux impacting more chunks reduces the possibility to simply move to another chunk.

The table upgrade (I forgot it's name) should by endgame by the way.

[Mr3DAlien]

I don't see why people, on the other hand, are complete the opinion that it is sad, that wands got removed but then try to say this is still there and stuff like that. I think I hit a good point with adding wands for storing vis in the table again. Using one easy thing to craft and place on top of a workbench for getting a large amount of vis (which isn't needed for any recipe) is no real upgrade for me

[mfk1016]

I don't see why people, on the other hand, are complete the opinion that it is sad, that wands got removed but then try to say this is still there and stuff like that.

I've talked about the arcane workbench and its (still existing) sort of progression. But yes, the other usage of wands is pretty much simplified with the gauntlet.

Using one easy thing to craft and place on top of a workbench for getting a large amount of vis (which isn't needed for any recipe) is no real upgrade for me

This is a pretty good point, but I think this could be addressed on the current system.

[Mr3DAlien]

Yeah I am not angry at you, but this thing on top of the Table isn't really exciting. To have wand back for the table would be much better.

[Nihil-theDemiurge]

I understand your opinion, but i don't think that wands needs to be returned. Maybe upgrades and lesser versions of the current workbench antennae.

As for me, the problem is in the research. It is very repetitieve and requires a lot of small things to do.

I understand why you miss wands, because they were customizable and each wand had its own uses. I think that Azanor needs to do something like foci customizing, but for gauntlet. Something similiar to CAD assembling from Psi. You could have different gauntlet bases, prisms, aura collectors and etc.

[Nihil-theDemiurge]

P.s. When I first heard that Azanor replaced wands with gauntlets, I've diagreed too. I've thought that it would ruin the magic vibe, but it didn't.

As for me, Thaumcraft is a very unique tech mod, wrapped into a magical paper. Ars Magica is a magical mod, Botania is a magical mod. Thaumcraft is more of a tech mod. Gauntlet suits Thaumcraft more than wands.

[Mr3DAlien]

But that would be same. Instead of making different gauntlets, he could replace it with wands, because I feel they fit better to the style of the mod then the gauntlet, It would just be an model and texture change, If he would make more gauntlets it would be the same as making different wands.

[Mr3DAlien]

In my opinion wands are more fitting than gauntlets, they where in Thaumcraft since 3 I think even in last versions of 2. That means the mod was based around the wands, and now they're gone. I mean even the Icon for THaumcraft 4/5 in the creative Tab was the wand... That should say something.

[Nihil-theDemiurge]

It doesn't mean that it always has to be the same. If you really want wands than ask someone to make a mod, which replaces them or just don't play TC6, go play TC4. The world won't change because you want it.

[Mr3DAlien]

First of all if porting Thaumcraft 4 to 1.12 would be allowed, I would do it myself, second you really shouldn't attack people because they like other Stuff then you do. I kinda feel like you never really played or did understand Thaumcraft 4, because if you did you would probably agree. As I said I don't think Thaumcraft 6 is bad it just feels like a quest mod instead of a mod you have to research stuff and so on. Thaumcraft 6 is easy that's right. But because something is easier it doesn't mean it is better. That's one of the Reasons why I like Applied Energistics more than Refined Storage. But something says you like Refined Storage, which isn't bad. But they're two kind of minecraft people, People who want a challange and want to do something to get what they want, or people who just want to get everything the easy way like EMC mod Refined Storage Draconic Evolution and so on. It isn't bad if you're one of this people but attacking me (at least it sounds so) isn't the way, because you like to do stuff the other way as I am. You can look at my channel I completed everything what there is in Thaumcraft 6 at the moment. It it didn't made that fun, when I had done it with Thaumcraft 4. And I know this because I livestream Thaumcraft 4 at the moment.

[devtn2001]

Researches are more realistic than in thaumcraft 4. Because yon need to make your theory and thenike to approve it. With essentia we have some broblems like synthesis, tou can do it at the research but you can t do it normally.

[Mr3DAlien]

If you talk about realistic things in a Magic mod, then this sounds a little bit crazy... The Research isn't something you need to think now, You just click trough it and get you Theorys, You even can skip them completely, which also is a really stupid thing.

[Nihil-theDemiurge]

So you say that I haven't played TC4, right? Then I should say that I have done 12 complete playthroughs on 1.6 and 1.7 where I have done all the content not only in TC, but in its addons.

I partially agree with your problem with research. It is very unique, but very expensive and repetitive, but all TC versions had repetitieve reseatch systems. I have played them all, even Arcanacraft.

Secondly, I argee with that AWB lost his system of upgrades, but it can be done in a different way, something like crucible tiers in TC2.

I don't understand why would you need wands so much, except for some 18+ stuff. Because there are no reasons for them to be returned. I have already stated a way of making gauntlets unique and not worse than wands.

[Nihil-theDemiurge]

So I have already stated a solution for problems with gauntlets and worktable.

You just look like this: "- Here is the solution for some of your problems with TC6...

• WITHOUT WANDS THAUMCRAFT IS DEAD AND ****!!!!"

[Mr3DAlien]

I really don't understand your problem. How old are you 12 ? everything you do is jst writting mad sit because I have other meanings of Thaumcraft then you do. To make a gauntlet with different upgrade system. Is exactly 100% with no difference the same thing as different wands. And I mean really complete the same thing. Evything I say is that I personally think, that wands are more fitting to thaumcraft then the gauntlet. I want to be a wizard, not Thanos. And I really don't want to go into more detail. I had writting much more other thing than wands up there. But everything you now do is to scream, because you want the gauntlet instead the wand. Which is ok, but writting like a 12 years old kid, isn't the answer, just because there are people who think different then you.

[Nihil-theDemiurge]

Really? I am 17 and I have other things to do beside TC. And where have I've screamed? It you who just deny everything I've said and instead of make your own suggestions, you just criticize everything.

[Mr3DAlien]

You are 17, everything you do here is writting angry stuff, because one of my suggestions was to bring back the wands. I love Thaumcraft with and wihout wands. But to be angry at someone because he likes other stuff then you do sucks. I don't really want to talk about that anymore, because this is getting me to childish. I talked about a lot of stuff, not jst wands. Just because I write that I liked the wands more then the gauntlet doesn't mean Azanor will bring them back. Even if that would be really cool. Also if you have other things to do then writting about Thaumcraft, then why are you not doing something else, because you are exactly doing that. And now just let it go because as I said this is getting me to childish, becase people don't accept what other peoples like.

[devtn2001]

Pepople, wands not the main item of thaumcraft wand in tc4 were the way of manipulating vis In tc6 we have a gauntlete and it s have all powers of wand whats problem

[Mr3DAlien]

There is no Problem, I had writtin more things about Thaumcraft 6 not just wands. Everything I said was that personally I think the wand suits thaumcraft more than the gauntlet does. This is my opinion and it is completly ok, when people think different about this stuff. What I don't understand is when people don't accept other peoples opinions.

[Mr3DAlien]

Everything that was taking out of my text was. I MISS WANDS. But that's not what this Text about. This text is more about that the Arcane Workbench shouls have something like an upgrade System again (this charging thing doesn't really count). Also this Text was about the Research System. My Idea is not to replace the gauntlet with wands again, my Idea was to add the wands as an option to store VIS like in Thaumcraft 3 and then we use this wands to channel this vis on the Table. This can be done with other Stuff then wands. It was just an Idea, because with that System we would have the gauntlet as it is and also would have back the wands and also a upgrade System for the Arcane Workbench. So there has just something be done with the Research System, because at the moment you don't really have to think that much. It is just clicking trough that stuff.

[Cenotaffio]

Before starting I would like to say that I love Thaumcraft, I have played it many times in all its interactions and I have total confidence in the skills and the Azanor's aesthetics. I'm not good at english so sorry for eventual bad language :(

I agree with Mr3DAlien, TC in TC6 (and partially in TC5) has lost a lot of its complexity, without any real compensation. The transition from many types of aura to a single type and the removal of nodes for what i know was made to reduce complexity and focus to more interesting and new mechanics, but until now I have not seen anything yet that could fill the hole, except for the beautiful rifts (and even for them is not yet clear if they will add sufficient content). The old research system wasn't perfect, and the puzzles were always the same and after a couples of plays i found quite boring repeat the exact same puzzles over and over, so the system needed a rethinking. The new one is actually a nice experiment, but it's way to random and quest-like, no more logic and intuition.

For the wand thing i don't really get why wands should be visually better than gauntlet, (it's a personal opinion) but they seem really more unique and fitting to the Thaumcraft theme (since TC4 i always thought wands were too "classical fantasy" like, while TC is more Lovecraft/Magitech oriented). For the customizability of wands, i agree that gauntlets need at least more options for materials and peculiarities, and a better implementation with the off hand thing (if i can, i like suggest the interaction between a dual gauntlet wielding, with synergies and effects, like complex enchantments that need two hands). For the new direct surrounding aura consumption i am also skeptical for some reasons: -PvP with magic is now almost impossible in many scenarios, the idea of an unique vis pool for both players is indeed interesting, but in practice is quite boring. -PvE with magic is too limited if you are bound to the energy of the chunk (everyone that tried to fight a twilight boss or clean a vertical dungeon with magic know how it can be frustrating). -The fact that depleting vis in a chunk can generate flux also add reasons to not use magic in a lot of scenarios.

That said i found quite funny the statement of the thaumonomicon that gauntlets are an improvement from wands.

But i also think TC needed a rework, the laser-like node generators and energy source of TC4 were cool, but in the end (except for the visual) they weren't that great compared to the rest of the mod. That said i was expecting an evolution of the concept, and i'm quite surprised of the total removal. I'm quite confident Azanor has great plans, i'm looking forward for them. TC6 is not finished yet, and the almost total absence of the late game and eldrich is a prove that he is still experimenting with the basic mechanics of the mod.

[Mr3DAlien]

That's a nice answer :D. Yeah That is totally what this Text should be about. As I said I can understand that people like the gauntlet more, and that's completly ok. My Idea was just to bring them back as an option to store Vis and then we can put them on the Table. That means that the Arcane Workbench would have an upgrade System again. So lets say the First wand would give you 50 vis so you can craft things that only need 50 vis. The next wand would give you 100 Vis and so on. This charging thing you can put on the arcane workbench would then be an upgrade to the bench that you can Charge up your wand in the Table. That hasn't been done with wands, but that would be an Idea. Because with that way we would have back the good old wands, we would have the gauntlet as a use for Magic and the Arcane Workbench would have a upgrade system again. Also Research is the same thing it needs an overhaul. I am not saying it should go back to the old one. but it should be something like a minigame again. You also shouldn't just cheat yourself the theories with this knowlage things, that should be remove. Nodes could maybe come back as a Thing you can make yourself and they would refill the aura really quick.

[Cenotaffio]

Using wands as batteries for crafting will make vis batteries useless. What if you could build a cluster of vis batteries and then link them to a wand? The maximum number of batteries and the efficiency will be limited by the material and the wand core that teleport the vis from the batteries in your base to the wand. you can enchant the wand to give it new proprieties and alter the base stats. Wands can be put on Workbench to craft but you can't put foci on them. If you wield a gauntlet and a wand at the same time you can use the gauntlet to extract and use the energy in the wand. Transfer energy through the wand will consume it, so you will never be able to have infinite energy in a single wand. This will force players to build big bases with big energy storage and extraction, then send that energy to the wand and manipulate it with gauntlet.

[PresquePlayed]

I really understand your concerns and I habe to agree on some of them. The research system is way less tedious. Personally I played TC4 with maaaany addons and there were so many aspects that I couldnt memorize all of them and thus had to use wikis and stuff to do the research that felt pretty unimmersive but I really liked the puzzle element of it. I think there should be a connection between research and thesis other than 'here you habe an artifice research token'.

I like the introduction of gloves but I still love tc4s wands. The theme of tc6 is as stated in the research of the gauntlet 'why should I trap vis in a wand when I can use the aura around me'. Thus vis batteries should be the only thing to store vis in as u want to use the aura around u still there should be a sense of progression in the crafting table perhaps usage of different magical resources to reduce vis costs and significantly increasing the vis costs of the crafting table. Or maybe even crazy structures to increase its power with lights and effects and stuff. In the research tab for the casters gauntlet it is stated that there perhaps are different upgrades to the casters gauntlet so in (unlikely future updates as azanor quit modding😭) there could be casters gauntlet upgrades like for the wands. For the research system I'd suggest to make experimenting a more vital part like trying to craft or do sth with a chance of failure or maybe making unkown researches appear in a different tab as problems or stuff like that and by trying different solutions i.e. infusion alchemy etc one may get different results or fail a task and so on that would give one the impression of real research instead of get that do this do that acquire that here's ur research. One more problem is the vanilla friendliness of TC6 this is a difficult thing as on the one hands awesome to have mods that stick to vanilla and vanilla friendliness has been a big thing in modding but there should be an option in the config to have a boost for magic cause in a heavily modded pach or against aoa3 bosses thaimcraft isnt really that powerfull. Now we are not allowed to judge tc6 yet since its not really finished and azanor is still tweaking it and changing aspects of it. And the endgame content isnt implemented at all thats a big down for TC6 caise TC4 endgame was amazingly powerfull especially stuff like the fucal manipulator. But I think there are cool additions to TC6 I really like the storytelling aspect of tc6 in previous versions one crafted a wand and then right-clicked a book shelf 2 start TC. Now one mines crystals while playing ordinary vanilla TC and then mine vis crystals then while sleeping u have a dream and do the salis mundus thing I really enjoy that. This narrative thingy continues through research. Also the lore of TC is being expanded like now Vis is described as primal energy that flows through everything and the aspects define vis and thus the world this just as an example. I love Narrative in Mods and I think if TC will get continued and eldritch research will get a very interesting turn with the new writing. But AZANOR PLS COME BACK

[k1r0s]

So the issue here is that mod owner did a fantastic work by creating Thaumcraft. Many people did enjoy Thaumcraft 4. The mod owner has the will and right to try new stuff etc, yeh

The problem for T4 players is that 1.7.10 is pretty much dead at this point. Nobody is fixing bugs, on server builds, forge builds, etc. The whole 1.7 ecosystem is falling appart because is up to 5 years old! and nobody wants to play nor support 1.7 anymore!! only t4 players keep playing 1.7.

Thaumcraft has to move forward! And, to me, and many Thaumcraft lovers, TC6 is not even a backstep, is a complete different story, even for a beta. There are nice additions of course.

A creator has the right to keep things under the lock as long as those things are being worked on. To me this is like a hostage situation.

T4 is such a fantastic mod, Why it has to be thrown that way into the trash? Does AZANOR has the right to do so? It might be an overstatement but AZANOR must release the source code if he is going to quit modding, or if Thaumcraft, as a matter of fact, shifted so dramatically.

Maybe he can start a quickstart fund raise campaing or so, in order to free the source.

RELEASETHAUMCRAFT4 campaing or whatelse. For, idk, $10.000?? TC4 is worth the price.

But keeping the lock on the T4 source is ... very ... very bad for minecraft and for the modding community.

Cheers.

[k1r0s]

And.. of course, there are other clever guys too. https://www.curseforge.com/minecraft/mc-mods/arcana

[tan-90]

Having a Thaumcraft 4 port for 1.12.2 would be the dream. I wish it was possible.

[alpan1]

mr3dalien, you said you would update 4 into 1.12.2 yourself, right? you know you can just email azanor himself, right? he answers most emails, and thats how COHF got their hands on continuing TC6 now that azzy has quit modding for good. just go ask him. and then come back here and let us know so we can use your update. XD [COHF are bad with updates, since they prioritize their own mods and dont do anything with TC6.]

[k1r0s]

@alpan1 do you have azanor's email there? would like to chat with him

[alpan1]

@alpan1 do you have azanor's email there? would like to chat with him

it used to be on his minecraftforum page. now it just lists his twitter so I guess thats the best way now. @azanor1 https://twitter.com/azanor1?lang=en

[JosephGallagher2001]

didn't Azanor leave the modding world though?

[alpan1]

didn't Azanor leave the modding world though?

I dont see how thats relevant. it doesnt mean you cant ask him a question.

[JosephGallagher2001]

I know, and I sent him a message over curse

On Mon, May 18, 2020 at 2:35 PM alpan1 notifications@github.com wrote:

didn't Azanor leave the modding world though?

I dont see how thats relevant. it doesnt mean you cant ask him a question.

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[Dob3l]

I honestly love the TC 4 mod and TC 6 is pretty disappointing to me. I loved the old research system and pretty much everything there but the new TC 6 removed a lot of things I loved about the old mod. I honestly don`t see why should you play TC 6 other than if you want to play on 1.12.

[ARCTIC314]

TC4 in my oppinion had much clearer progression, because the thing was, not only that you had to upgrade your spells but wands alongside with research for unlocking better more complex items to craft via more vis and that was the point that kept me playing it. In TC6 research progresses faster and overall progression feels easier, the vis is stored in the area and regenerates keeping the player more at base if patient enough, on 1.7 you had to go out getting vis to finish your Infernal Furnace for example but now it is more stationary. The warp mechanics can be controlled, it is harder than in 4 don't get me wrong but not beside it infusion is still mostly the same, I liked the rifts thing where it was hard to get rid of if left uncontrolled unless you had access to the casuality collapser. I have a reflection that TC4 was more open for exploration and kept the good stuff longer than TC6 does. Still enjoyed playing it for the 1st time but later it got really schematic because of the fast progression what I cannot say about TC4 - in my oppinion a real masterpiece.

[JosephGallagher2001]

didn't he say that the mod could be maintained or reworked by anyone who wants to do so? So you could rework the research system if you wanted

On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 11:53 AM ARCTIC314 @.***> wrote:

TC4 in my oppinion had much clearer progression, because the thing was, not only that you had to upgrade your spells but wands alongside with research for unlocking better more complex items to craft via more vis and that was the point that kept me playing it. In TC6 research progresses faster and overall progression feels easier, the vis is stored in the area and regenerates keeping the player more at base if patient enough, on 1.7 you had to go out getting vis to finish your Infernal Furnace for example but now it is more stationary. The warp mechanics can be controlled, it is harder than in 4 don't get me wrong but not beside it infusion is still mostly the same, I liked the rifts thing where it was hard to get rid of if left uncontrolled unless you had access to the casuality collapser. I have a reflection that TC4 was more open for exploration and kept the good stuff longer than TC6 does. Still enjoyed playing it for the 1st time but later it got really schematic because of the fast progression what I cannot say about TC4 - in my oppinion a real masterpiece.

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[LordVertice]

It's not very well known at this point, but Thaumcraft 7 is being worked on and might release as early as 1.19 or 1.20. Check out this Imgur collection of development previews for some sneak peeks. TC7 appears to bring back nodes and wands while keeping and expanding some of the better parts and the progression style/narrative of TC6. I am not associated with Team CoFH, Azanor, or anyone else who knows anything specific about the future of Thaumcraft, I just wanted to share what I learned from the mods of the CoFH Discord server.