[SUGGESTION] WZS: Remove MLT defence

[HoneyBadger1337]

MLT defence should be removed from the map pool because it's just a map people use to point farm, from spamming explosives at the zombie spawn (Which is far too easy to access, from long or short range) or people just running around rambo with 20+ people mowing down the zombie spawn, it's not fair in the slightest bit.

It might be not instantly noticeable, but if you look closely at the zombie spawn, you can see tons of green dots, tons of explosives put down by a couple people

As for the zombies, if you're not playing entity as the zombies, you're automatically at a disadvantage, as you'll just die as any other boss, which really makes gameplay boring and reptitive of the usual, attack, run, hide, repeat

Plus it opens up opportunities of griefing, people can destroy windows that allow zombies to get in easier, the door at the front will always get pressed and all the humans will break it because they can't get back in without doing that or breaking a window.

And finally, people outside of the cade can survive for far too long if they have good players, just because the zombies will have swarm after swarm of bullets endlessly attacking them, and if not that, explosives at every turn. (Note: It's not a bad thing if people can survive outside a cade, but if it's a majority of the humans are outside a cade, and they can't be killed without using stupidly repetitive and boring tasks like being the entity, or just simply waiting for one person to mess up and die, and hope that happens to half of them, it's bad.)

My final point is: MLT defence as a whole is a bad map in terms of balance, it would need reworking more (And I mean making the zombie spawns closer and making it more dangerous for people that plan to spam explosives at the front) if it were to work, and right now, it's just the repetitive task of camping the zombie spawn and kill the entity as the humans, and constantly pick entity and do games of peek-a-boo as the zombies.

[Bergman777]

I don't know if the devs do map edits or anything but if they do then maybe place a bunch of containers and other things out there for covers, and if that isn't enough maybe remove the mounted turret. The base in itself is fine gameplay wise, its just the long empty area that is the porblem.

Anyways i enjoy the map even as it is now, and i think it should stay.

[HoneyBadger1337]

That would do absolutely nothing to help the zombies, as players will just snipe them as they come out of cover, or run around and destroy them with bullets or melee attacks. Also that fails to address the first 2 waves of players openly running around shooting and whacking every zombie they see without care or worry about themselves. The turret only does 1 damage, literally pitiful damage except for against a headcrab.

Maybe you're missing the bigger picture here, this isn't about cover, or how just adding random containers for protection, it's about the fact that a majority of zombies will not make it to the first barricade without getting mowed down, and any boss that is NOT entity, WILL get abused and destroyed without mercy in seconds, Bonemesh? You'll have 5 people shooting you from the roof and you can't hit them with the secondary attack, Shade? Useless, all the props that you could use will be behind windows, and they certainly will not let you get near them without nailing them down, Sphynx? Tickle Monster? Nightmare? Same as the bonemesh, you will get abused from the rooftops and you will be helpless against it.

And how about this: Yes, you can get to fast zombies at wave 3, but a majority of the time people just camp the windows, and you can even shoot through them as a human! Add ontop of that the fact that most people are just going to do the same task of spawn, charge the enemy cade, die, repeat, it almost becomes impossible as a zombie to win, you're relying on dumb luck and I really can't see how else you'd win without advance AI from the bots and massive cooperation with the team (Oh and even then, the humans would instantly realize what's going on and would just wait at every entrance and window and blow up any peeking fast zombies, trust me, I tried.)

Also I disagree about the base being fine, it has far too many props that make it quite literally a impenetrable fortress, it's fine when you destroy one or two cades, but if those cades took until wave 6 to destroy, and there's even a third cade that has even more props than the last two combined? It's completely ridiculous and unfair to the zombies unless someone can't be bothered to cade. (Yes, i'm aware that any good cader can make a map hard as hell for zombies, but my point is that it's really hard to not mess that up on this map)

[jems01]

I firstly tried to combat some of these issues by introducing mid wave bosses, allowing two bosses to be spawned within one round.

Unfortunately the script seemed flawed as it randomly crashed the server therefore I didn't get enough time to study if it 'helped'. A safer alternative is scaling the human dmg multiplier, however I'm not sure how viable that is, it seems the biggest problem with this map is just the massive open space at the spawn.

How about a script that unlocks some classes earlier? i.e fast zombie on wave 2, or zombine on wave 5. I can understand you just want the map removed but if we can solve this issue then we're better prepared in the future for ones like this.

[jems01]

I can't edit as I'm on my phone but I'd like to state that Warden has offered to edit the map again in hammer, ideally adding a spawn behind the main building. Suggested hammer edits should be written here, as i'll inform Warden of this thread if he isn't aware of it already.

[Loickun]

As far as I know was Warden working on a fix for that problem. Maybe place a few bushes to block the view from the Base and a few bigger rocks for cover? Maybe an alternate zspawn behind the base after a certain wave or remove the fences on the sides?

[HoneyBadger1337]

The problem is that the humans just have too far of an advantage, if they play their cades just a bit right, they can basically camp the zombie spawn all the way until they win.

Unlocking classes earlier, will not help, trust me, sure, having zombines on wave 5 or fast zombies on wave 2, will sound like a good idea on paper, but let me show you with 1 picture why that will not work:

In this example (which you'll see most of the time playing MLT defense), it's wave 5, you've got about, what, 20 people out there, mowing zombies down as they come out of the gas?

My point is, if they are able to kill the tanky zombies before wave 6, I guarantee you that having zombies unlocked on wave 5, will not help at all, it'll just make them a bit more spongier

I don't know what Warden plans to do for the map, but it's not just the zombie spawn, as I said in the earlier post it's also the amount of props that can be freely used, let me ask you, should a cade ever get to this point, while also having lots of props left over to add to this cade?

I don't think it should. An alternate Zspawn would not help matters either, as you'll just have about 7 people shooting from the balconies at the back or camping the back cade. I should also use this time to mention- again, that humans can shoot through the windows, despite how thick they are, while zombies are basically helpless to this.

I really don't think a few brushes here, a few clips there, will do anything for the map, you'd need to redesign the whole map because it's just one giant unbalanced mess.

Whoops, I didn't think 'close and comment' would close the issue, sorry about that!