Few minor questions relating to healing revision

Hi,

Thanks for your great work.

I took a look at the script for healing revision, and this line looks weird to me.

https://github.com/BGforgeNet/FO2tweaks/blob/0564b25694739ccbb69758956ed0cb0742acc46f/source/gl_g_healing_revision.ssl#L195

A few lines above, you calculate the effective_fa, which takes into account the skill bonus, but it is not used beyond logging. Was this line supposed to pass effective_fa to get_fa_healed?

Unrelated to the above, I was wondering whether the get_healed_hp and get_fa_healed functions take perks into account. Does the Healer perk work with this mod?

Finally, I'm wondering why 10 HP for doctor and 5 for first aid per 24 hours is the maximum healed. While having a 100% success rate and use on rest is a great QoL change, 15 HP per day per patient seems like a nerf compared to the base game if you're not healing a large party.

Likely it was. I'll have to dig into history. It's been some time.
No, perks are not accounted for, the reason is I totally forgot there are some. If you list others (if there are any), I'll see what can be done.
- These are basically default values (FA 1-5, Doctor 1-10), which I took and found to be good enough in my playthrough.
- One thing to keep in mind, though, is that XP rewards are based on total HP healed, so if you do run a large party, and apply, say, vanilla limits (3xFA, 3xDoctor), you could be getting as much as 6x450=2700XP per day of healing (or even more, if you have Unlimited Party enabled, and yet more if perks are taken into account).
What I want is for auxilary skills to be useful, but not so useful that they outshine others without alternatives. Just enough to tempt the player to actually spend skill points on them - that sweet spot.

Likely it was. I'll have to dig into history. It's been some time.

Sounds good, thanks.

perks are not accounted for

Looking over the perk list at https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Fallout_2_perks, I only see Healer affecting these skills in this way. Perks that raise skill percentages are hopefully not necessary to check for manually.

Going by https://falloutmods.fandom.com/wiki/Fallout_1_and_Fallout_2_scripting_-_commands,_reference,_tutorials and https://github.com/BGforgeNet/Fallout2_Restoration_Project/blob/0f0d393c2a1084e45dde649165fc0b36805e2fa1/scripts_src/headers/define.h#L222, I think it should be possible to check for the existence of the perk using the has_trait function with the linked constant.

If you decide to change the behavior of the perk to be more in line with the other changes to FA and Doctor, it might be good to update the perk text at https://github.com/BGforgeNet/Fallout2_Restoration_Project/blob/293d57f903de6483e3830dac05cba457f184a17e/data/text/english/game/perk.msg#L151 as well :)

What I want is for auxilary skills to be useful, but not so useful that they outshine others without alternatives

Yes, that makes sense. And your point about experience is also well made. I wasn't really wishing for more casts per party member, but maybe for the skills to just have a set number of uses per day. Scaling uses by party member count makes the skills either pretty weak for a solo run, or very powerful for a full party, almost no matter what the exact healing numbers get set to.

If you decide to change the behavior of the perk to be more in line with the other changes to FA and Doctor, it might be good to update the perk text

Again, on one hand 4-10 extra per level does seem a bit strong, considering the XP, but on the other hand a perk is a serious investment, so the reward should be justified. I think I'll try 3-4 per level. Perk text can't be updated, unfortunately:

Sfall lacks features to alter msg text dynamically.
RP is an independent mod, and altering it to suite my needs is not something I want to do.
I could ship the entire msg file, but FO2tweaks is designed to be pluggable and compatible with any game on F2 engine, and that's potentially break compatibility. It might be possible to replace it with another, fake perk of the same name, for which I could ship description in a separate file. But I'm not sure, will have to look into this.

I wasn't really wishing for more casts per party member, but maybe for the skills to just have a set number of uses per day.

That's a core feature, actually the very thing that prompted me to write this component. Set number per day just doesn't make sense. The wounds can only heal so fast. 9 women won't give birth to a child in 1 month, but they can give birth to 9 children in 9 months.

Scaling uses by party member count makes the skills either pretty weak for a solo run, or very powerful for a full party, almost no matter what the exact healing numbers get set to.

Well, a doctor is a party player, naturally he's more useful when there's more people to heal. I don't want to take that away. One more thing I'd like to note is that in fact, in vanilla game I usually don't even bother with healing because of the awkward mechanics. So in my experience, it's a boost even when running solo.

I understand your reasoning, however I definitely don't want to go back to multiple uses, because it's both annoying and doesn't "make sense".

It's possible to introduce some kind of daily diminishing returns (linear? exponent?) for XP, that'd allow to increase HP healed. The challenge is getting it balanced so it's useful in all party sizes, and doesn't offer too much of XP and HP (remember that Lenny is acquired early enough in game, and he's got skills pretty close to max), and still keeps it so good doctors in large parties get rewarded handsomely. Maybe that would involve uncapping the skills, too.

So if you want to run the numbers and make suggestions, go ahead.

Okay, the text is probably not a big deal, people will hopefully read the README before installing the mod.

Again, on one hand 4-10 extra per level does seem a bit strong, considering the XP, but on the other hand a perk is a serious investment, so the reward should be justified. I think I'll try 3-4 per level.

Sounds good.

That's a core feature, actually the very thing that prompted me to write this component. Set number per day just doesn't make sense. The wounds can only heal so fast. 9 women won't give birth to a child in 1 month, but they can give birth to 9 children in 9 months.

That's fair. The main reason I don't like the vanilla skills is how annoying they are to use, which to me is the most important part this component fixes.

I'm not really thinking of this in terms of whether it makes sense in-universe, but just whether the skills feel worthwhile to take. You are right that having e.g. 3 uses per day doesn't make sense from the "how is this justified in-universe" perspective. Edit: That being said, I don't know healing makes much sense in-universe as is. Stimpacks are essentially healing potions.

Well, a doctor is a party player, naturally he's more useful when there's more people to heal. I don't want to take that away.

Fair.

One more thing I'd like to note is that in fact, in vanilla game I usually don't even bother with healing because of the awkward mechanics. So in my experience, it's a boost even when running solo.

I usually take Doctor since it is nice to be able to fix crippling injuries, but the vanilla skills are very tedious to use simply for gaining HP. I think I'll give the skills a shot with the current numbers and see how they feel.

It's possible to introduce some kind of daily diminishing returns (linear? exponent?) for XP, that'd allow to increase HP healed. The challenge is getting it balanced so it's useful in all party sizes, and doesn't offer too much of XP and HP (remember that Lenny is acquired early enough in game, and he's got skills pretty close to max), and still keeps it so good doctors in large parties get rewarded handsomely.

Limiting the XP gained in some way seems like a good idea. Going back to getting a symbolic amount of XP (I think it's usually 10) would be the simple solution. You're already getting a lot of benefit from the skills from the free healing, so adding a big chunk of XP on top doesn't seem necessary. I think this would be in line with other skills like Lockpick and Steal.

Here's some numbers for perspective on how much the XP given by Doctor and FA is:

If you heal 3 people for 15 HP each, you get 450 XP. That seems like a lot, considering most quests give you something like 1k-5k (less in the early game) for resolving them, and considering that for a resting period after a big fight, you will likely be able to get multiples of this number.

Let's say you end the game at level 20, around 200k XP. 450 XP is 0.225% of that. That gives a breakpoint of ~22 heals across the campaign for the two skills to be stronger, as an XP source, than the Swift Learner perk, which gives a 5% XP boost. With 5 people, you'd only need to heal the party 13 times.

If you then account for Healer (say 3 HP added to both FA and Doctor), you're up to 630-1050 XP (3-5 people) per day for healing the party, which means 16 or 10 heals to beat Swift Learner.

It's not only how much you get, but also when. In the end game, 10-20k hp isn't much, but in early game it's huge. Healer could be applied without XP bonus. Swift learner is crap to begin with, and my goal is to improve things, not make them equally crappy.

"Free healing" by itself is simply a game mechanic fix, since resting works just as well. I do want the skills to be actually valuable in-game. You get points for shooting things, "science-ing", talking, etc. And a doctor should be able to benefit from his trade likewise.

Yet another radical idea which can be used with or without others is to make the skills heal a percentage of HP, while keeping XP bonuses flat. Lots of options, even more combinations...

I think I'll give the skills a shot with the current numbers and see how they feel.

Yes, it's best to actually try things first. Like I said, in my experience it's been good enough, so maybe this discussion is moot.

BGforgeNet / FO2tweaks

Few minor questions relating to healing revision #61