HH 2.0 unit options changes

[Srlojohn]

I would like to offers some feedback on the recent changes to how infantry squads, primarily Troops such as Tactical Marines, Despoiler Marines, or Support Squads. Namely that the current system of selecting options with bespoke loadouts is unwieldy and overly complex. One of the previous systems, which simply had all the options on spinners and it threw an error when you went out of bounds, I.E. More than 19 marines+sergeant in a tactical squad, was far simpler, and easier to understand.

As opposed to the current system, where there are bespoke entries for: Legionaries w/ Bolter, Bolt Pistol; Legionaries w/ Bolter, Bolt Pistol, Bayonet; Legionaries w/ Bolter, Bolt Pistol, Bayonet, Chainsword; Legionaries w/ Bolter, Bolt Pistol, Chain Bayonet; Legionaries w/ Bolter, Bolt Pistol, Chain Bayonet, Chainsword; Legionaries w/ Bolter, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword; and Legionaries w/ Options. Why are there 7 different bespoke options, when it could be one option with some spinners?

Is there a mechanical reason behind the scenes that I'm simply missing? Because from a user-side it just seems clunky.

[Mayegelt]

In essence (and I'm probably not the best at explaining this) a reason behind it was for accuracy. Many people submit lists for tournaments and events in which list accuracy matters for event organizers Hopefully with Phalanx it will become less cumbersome later.

[alphalas]

The changes were made for fourfold reasons honestly; Reason #1 is while abstracting individual model upgrades to the unit level (aka buckets of spinners; the old way) might FEEL simpler, it wasnt exactly accurate and required complex constraints, modifiers, and repeats to work; sometimes requiring a constraint to be set one way, then modified two different ways. 2, especially on units with "Has A and B, may swap A for a second B, may exchange any B for C" sort of upgrade tree, the buckets of upgrades again could make correct and accurate implementation difficult. 3, going to a per model basis reduces the overall clicks to build a unit, adds granularity and accuracy, and reduces the ability for someone to use the vagueness of the old system as an abusive exploit to nearly zero. 4, The new design brings the Heresy data more in line with Best Practices that have been established and proven over the last few years in the 40k dataset.

[Srlojohn]

The changes were made for fourfold reasons honestly; Reason #1 is while abstracting individual model upgrades to the unit level (aka buckets of spinners; the old way) might FEEL simpler, it wasnt exactly accurate and required complex constraints, modifiers, and repeats to work; sometimes requiring a constraint to be set one way, then modified two different ways. 2, especially on units with "Has A and B, may swap A for a second B, may exchange any B for C" sort of upgrade tree, the buckets of upgrades again could make correct and accurate implementation difficult. 3, going to a per model basis reduces the overall clicks to build a unit, adds granularity and accuracy, and reduces the ability for someone to use the vagueness of the old system as an abusive exploit to nearly zero. 4, The new design brings the Heresy data more in line with Best Practices that have been established and proven over the last few years in the 40k dataset.

I appreciate the transparency of you both, and I understand the back-end ease for sure, and that's fine justification for me, and I get any issues with inaccuracies, but I do have to question the best practices angle. What works for 40k may not work best for 30k. To use tactical squads, as an example. 40k tactical squads can have, at most, 4 units with any sort of options, a sergeant, a heavy weapons/special weapons operator, a heavy weapons operator (at 10 marines), and a special weapons operator (at 10 marines). To do this you need, at most, 4 selections, and arguably only two (marine w/ Heavy Weapon, Marine w/ Special Weapon). With a 30k tactical squads Every marine can take bayonets, chain bayonets, and chainswords, which is 5 different options alone for every marine, and then the three add-on wargear, the Nuncio-vox, Augury Scanner, and Legion vexilla. The last three can be condensed, since only one in a squad can take them, but that's still 6 different options, not counting legion-specific upgrades such as World Eater Chainaxes to replace chainswords.

So while having every possible permutation laid out may be best practice in 9th ed 40k, a much simpler ruleset in regards to wargear variety, I'm not sure that it's best for the 30k ruleset. I can't claim to know a specifically better solution that isn't also more difficult on your end (and I get the difficulty of this thing, i've had a dataset for the bionicle miniature ruleset in the works for months now), but it feels like, as a user of both datasets, that doesn't quite transfer over. Either way, thank you for your responses, it certainly makes more sense to me overall now.

[alphalas]

@Srlojohn actually, raising this issue did spark some conversation among the Senior Data Devs and we might have struck upon a solution that is both more efficient and easier to parse out while still maintaining our striving for accuracy. How the tactical squad appears when you initially add it: How the default collective works: And the non-collective legionary you can use to make more granular loadouts if you want:

[alphalas]

Hopefully you find this to hit both the sweet spots we're trying to hit of ease of use and granularity as an option.

That being said, Bionicle miniatures game?

[Srlojohn]

Hopefully you find this to hit both the sweet spots we're trying to hit of ease of use and granularity as an option.

That being said, Bionicle miniatures game?

That looks good to me! It looks much cleaner to work with, at least to me. While it does increase a few clicks, it's far more readable to me as a user, and to me personally, I think that's a worthy trade-off!

As for the Bionicle Wargame, the group "Red Star Games" who make a Bionicle d20 and a Bionicle G2 d16 RPG system released a Miniature wargame about a year ago, to eventually be used with miniatures they have in the works. It's called Barranai Nui, if you want to go take a look.

[Maycano]

Hey yeah the bayonet option on the Sergeant is gone in this alteration

[alphalas]

It's fixed, just not live in release.

[Maycano]

It's fixed, just not live in release.

Okay cool