Strata-based Stone Tools

[Blacklands]

Since a while, each strata (stratum?) is (from what it seems like ingame) a separate block ID and drops its own separate stone blocks. (Whereas before, this was just done via metadata I think, and when broken one would always get the "regular" first-strata stone.)

Following this approach, I'm wondering if there should also be two more separate versions of each stone tool, for the other two deeper strata. Right now, crafting tools with those stones just give you the regular stone tools.

I think this could be interesting because it would give you a little extra reward for being able to break those stones (iron pickaxe for second and diamond/steel for third strata) and for carrying them around at all (cluttering your inventory more because they don't stack with the first-strata stone anymore). The stone tools would have more durability (maybe double for second-strata tools and triple for third-strata ones?). Maybe they would also be a bit faster (still way slower than iron, but noticeably faster than regular first-strata stone ones). They would not have any additional capabilities - functionally they would still be stone tools, just with better "stats".

[ammoore00]

Why would you need slightly better stone tools once you already have access to better materials to mine those stratas though? Seems redundant to me tbh.

[Blacklands]

Just because I got enough iron for one or two iron tools doesn't mean I can use them for everything now? We're using stone tools all the time when we can. We only use our precious iron tools when we have to (iron pickaxe for second strata mining, iron axe for cutting wood or breaking planks-based blocks, iron shovels when we're really pressed on time to dig a shelter or when we don't want dirt blocks to come loose while digging).

I could also turn your question around and ask: Why are we having the other strata stones as separate blocks at all right now if we can't even make slightly improved tools out of them? Seems pretty redundant. They just clutter up storage. I guess they're slightly more durable in terms of explosion resistance? And they might matter on anarchy multiplayer servers?

Well, anyway, it was just a suggestion. I guess I might make an add-on for this if there's no other usage for those stone types added. Right now we just use them for road building because it's also kind of ugly to mix them with the regular stone in building (which we have so much more of).

[ammoore00]

Part of the point of iron tools is that they are meant to be a major jump from previous tools, and I don't really want to diminish that. Plus, I feel like the early game is pretty well tuned and I don't necessarily want to mess with that right now. If there was some way to get them earlier than iron tools (or if there were stone type regions or something like that, which is far beyond the scope of BTW), then it could potentially lead to interesting decisions. Given the current state though, it feels to me like it would slot into progression weirdly, and would largely feel extraneous.

As for why the stone types exist, they're purely decorative. I don't believe explosion resistance differs for cobblestone or stone brick, although that could be looked into. I do plan on doing something in the future to help alleviate the storage issue. Not entirely sure what that looks like yet though.

Also, anarchy isn't really a supported mode of play anymore, and realistically hasn't been in a very long time. It's been impractical since hardcore hunger was introduced, and even more so post-aahh. I'm not aware of anyone playing BTW as anarchy in almost a decade (the last couple anarchy servers I knew of ended up being entirely cooperative in practice).

[Blacklands]

Okay, so it's purely decorative right now then. Not even for protection against other players or the like.

I don't see how making stone tools that have some more durability and a bit more speed would mess with progression at all. Iron tools would still be a major jump. The gap between them and stone tools is sooooooo large. It would just mean that using stone tools to preserve your iron tools for trivial tasks (like flattening an area with your shovels, or cutting down a bunch of trees) is less tedious. Which I would think is a good thing, given how much tedium the game already (by design) has. It's not like it would make the game easier, let alone touch the game progression.

I don't know how you're not seeing my point at all. Maybe your playstyle is totally different, and you do way more caving and get way more iron and never use stone tools again after you got your first iron tools. We're still using stone tools all the time, we only use the iron tools when we need to.

If I have a bunch of stone from some second-strata caving I would much rather use it to make slightly longer-lasting and faster shovels and axes and pickaxes from that than some super basic decoration improvement. We're not even building with stone anyway because we don't have enough to make walls out of it, we just make those out of dirt and sand for the most part, and we make our floors out of wood to prevent spawning, and we don't make roofs at all because we don't have permanent lighting yet (if I make a roof for something, I make it out of trapdoors or fences so I still get daylight in). We basically use all our stone (together with gravel) to build roads between bases. It doesn't matter to us at all what the color of those roads is, we don't really have the luxury of caring about that, yet. By the time we would be so far in the progression that we start caring what color of stone we are building with, we'll have an abundance of iron anyway probably. So being able to make stone tools that last a bit longer and destroy blocks a bit faster would be much, much, much more significant to us than any potential slight decorative use. I don't see how implementing this was worth it for decorative use, but then being able to use the stone for somewhat more convenient stone tools is going too far or something.

Also, yes, slight improvements to the stone tools we are using would be worth it, for us at least. We do so much with stone tools, if the deeper strata ones had like 25% more durability and 25% more speed or whatever (which would still place them faaaaaar below iron tools), that would save us a bunch of time and tedium for all the trivial daily building/terraforming tasks.

Furthermore: I don't see how it even makes sense that this is not possible. Why is this stone presented as clearly a harder/more resistant type of stone, but then when you make a tool out of it it's exactly as durable as a tool made from stone of the "softer" strata? (And also looks like it's made from first-strata stone, since they're not separate items.) This isn't supposed to be an argument for "realism", I'm talking purely from the perspective of someone playing this game.

I don't think I'll be able to convince you. But I still wanted to lay out my arguments and where I'm coming from, at least.

[PlasmaFox256]

Tools in BTW have distinct tiers and unlock "eras" of the game. By adding extra tools tiers that don't contribute to gameplay other than a different texture and minimal stat increases would only clutter the game and create inconsistency. Why not add birch, oak, jungle or spruce tools? - there is simply no need as they will function the same Personally I'm not a fan of strata cobblestones and all other variants since they severely clutter the game purely for decoration purposes.

[Blacklands]

There's already tool tiers in the game that add nothing new to the functionality of a tool and simply have higher stats, though.

Honestly, I don't even want this this much. I just want something to do with all this strata stone. Something that isn't irrelevant for gameplay. Because right now these separate stone types just existing feels bad.

I would much rather have the old state back where all the strata gave you the same type of stone. Caving is already a very dangerous activity, plus you're on a timer (until you have nether torches). Now with all those strata type stones and cobblestones cluttering your inventory even more (it's already pretty bad imo how your inventory gets cluttered in Better Than Wolves since "piles" and single stones were added), you have to stop and do inventory management (if only to throw out all the second/third strata stuff) even more. And for what - for a little more decoration options super far down the line?

Alternatively, how about you get first-strata stone drops from second/third strata stone unless you're using a soulforged steel tool or diamond pickaxe? Then you can still have your extra decoration options later on, but it's at least not making the early game caving worse.

[PlasmaFox256]

That's what I'm saying bro

[Hirachosan]

lets just make all logs drop oak wood then? Just because you don't see a point in variety doesn't mean there isn't or wont be expanded upon. The added clutter is very minor compared to what stone already does since AAH and managing inventory space it is an actual part of BTW balance. you break a different block you get a different item. That said. there was supposed to be a recipe to just let you mix the stones to get the worst quality one. But that one needed a little more thought while the balance of the current change could be tested. This change wasn't made for "a little more decoration options" it has been made for consistency

[Blacklands]

Well, if more is planned for this, then that's great. As far as I'm aware, there is no public roadmap right now for future versions. So all we "outsiders" can comment on is what's currently in the game.

And how is my suggestion here not about consistency? Why is breaking different blocks and getting different types fine, but then crafting tools with that gives you the same tool all the time? Either it's for gameplay reasons and not consistency, or it's currently inconsistent.

Since wood types were mentioned: I assume that more stuff from the Deco AddOn will eventually get rolled into the base game, and we'll get all the wood-based blocks (like doors, fences, trapdoors, and the like) for the different wood types, too? Which would also make sense for consistency reasons (and be nice for decoration, of course).

[LannyRipple]

I don't know how you're not seeing my point at all. Maybe your playstyle is totally different, and you do way more caving and get way more iron and never use stone tools again after you got your first iron tools. We're still using stone tools all the time, we only use the iron tools when we need to.

She saw your point. She doesn't agree with it. If this is important to you then with modding getting easier for BTW you can just create a mod that gives you those stone tools. What's that you say? You don't know how to make mods and you want Dawn, who gives her work freely to the community and in her spare time, to do all the work? I suspect that's the point that she's not seeing.

[Blacklands]

She saw your point. She doesn't agree with it. If this is important to you then with modding getting easier for BTW you can just create a mod that gives you those stone tools. What's that you say? You don't know how to make mods and you want Dawn, who gives her work freely to the community and in her spare time, to do all the work? I suspect that's the point that she's not seeing.

Yeah, I will probably try this out in an AddOn (sounds like a good "baby's first AddOn" in fact, for learning how to make them, since it's nothing complicated). It's also definitely possible that I'll come away from that thinking that it's in fact a pointless addition. I'll report back then. I'm not super hell-bent on this, in case it seemed like that. We had a discussion about this now, and the conclusion was that nobody really thinks it makes sense to add - that's fine. 🙂