BradleyC
commented
5 years ago @hilmarx wow, you gave me so much to think about.
what about creating a canopy framework
my struggle with this is thinking about how to build something flexible and adaptable while still presenting a product that an end user can easily understand. LEGOs sell because of the photo of the assembled model, not because you can do anything with them (though that is the appeal to the enthusiast). Are there any parameters / rules in the system as currently explained that you think could be set in stone?
the stake a creator will deposit reflects the calculated probability of other users voting
that's definitely the utilitarian way to see this, I wonder if actual users will see it this way. The main goal is to attach some cost to usage of the platform to prevent spam / propaganda (e.g. Internet Research Agency style groups). I do see what you mean, maybe we need to think of a better way to return the stake, or perhaps use a constant stake value for a particular canopy.
Digital rights management is a large topic to tackle ;).
Yes. ;) (let's talk about this in the future)
What happens to the post afterwards, can it still get rewards / votes?
Need to be more clear on what it means to cash out, get an idea of what people would want. Do people want posts to expire or no?
Transfer through curation votes
I should illustrate this visually. Currently, the idea is: votes have exponential cost, BUT however much you spend get directly sent on to poster or community pool. 25 tokens for boost -> 5 votes for post, 25 tokens to poster.
Bonus payment
Paid from community pool, which is funded by stakes not returned and payments toward burn votes. This is a focus of testing to ensure that behavior will keep pool funded.
How are you thinking about tackling sybil attacks?
Obviously one of the toughest problems. I think about three phases of users gaining access to Canopy:
- Alpha phase: invite only access to accounts seeded with token
- Beta phase: invites to seeded accounts with some cost attached, or open access with no token
- Dynamic phase: no seeded accounts. Perhaps - small cost to acquire new account.
Vulnerability is in early stages because "free" tokens will be available, but this should be countered by hard limitations on invites to seeded accounts. Once accounts are available to the public, costs attached to posting and voting should at least slow attackers who use sybil techniques. (thinking about Internet Research Agency style attacks, with a budget reported to be under $10 million, that spend would not be cost effective on a Canopy.)
I'm seeing to some extent that part of the canopy framework is a dynamic environment for growing a community to scale, allowing it to build natural defenses before opening to public behaviors.
To ensure that individual communities thrive
Absolutely right, need to make sure Canopy caretakers have all the right tools and accountability to build their community. Initially, I think most caretakers will be directly recruited, but we will need to think of how to scale this process.
What incentivzes people to vote?
This is the most common question so far. To me, seems like most people will find it boring to lurk... but this is one of 2 primary things I'm watching for in the user testing (that begins tonight!)
Which third party service are you thinking about?
Currently Loom is the front runner for me, though that's just based on scanning docs and no practical testing. I wish Celer was available outside of Android (and maybe requires cWallet? don't feel like I've gotten a straight answer from them). Do you have any recs?
Also, 3rd party Plasma is just to help bootstrap until Eth 2.0 scalability drops (or enough maintainers come on board to do a bespoke Plasma implementation).
Will there be a DAO like structure to govern the platforms development?
Yes, I sent this out totally forgetting to write about governance. 🤦♂️ Definitely a DAO like structure, but based on your comments, now wondering if it needs to be a DAO of DAOs?? Or more realistically, a DAO for Canopy framework, and then a choice of several preset governance options to manage the customization parameters on any individual Canopy.
I think these should be decided within specific canopies themselves.
Excellent point
# What is a Canopy?If I understand correcly, you are aiming for a reddit style bulletin board where individuals can create a new "Canopy" for e.g. the topic of "Ethereum Development", for which they have to convince others to join in and start posting.
What I find really interesting is rather than emposing a set of rules for each canopy to follow (in terms of risk / reward structures, rules, etc), what about creating a canopy framework that allows canopy creators (e.g. the founding team behind a specific token) to choose these specifics from a set of pre defined rules by themselves. These specifics can also be altered along the way through a governance process via Aragon / DAOStack. The canopy maintainers will create the first canopies to give inspiration to outsiders to join in and create a community for themselves.
# CreationIn this model, the stake a creator will deposit reflects the calculated probability of other users voting it down vs up, not the creators commitment and believe in the quality of the post. Controversial, yet informative posts with high utility for a community might get downvoted solely because of a strong ideology within a canopy (e.g BTC vs ETH maximalists). This encourages tribalism as it literally costs to speak out. Only remedy I see atm is a very educated and self critical user base ;).
Members own the content they post, and a variety of cryptographic techniques that Canopy uses helps to ensure that member privacy settings are always respected, and that creators receive payment when / if their content is licensed.Digital rights management is a large topic to tackle ;).# Rewardswhen a member chooses to cash out their post (any point within 30 days of posting), they will receive a return of their initial stake based on their ratio of boosts to burns.I don't understand this "cashing out" process. What happens to the post afterwards, can it still get rewards / votes? Who would receive them? Can you continously "cash out" a post that behaves like content on youtube that makes you money over time?
**Transfer through curation votes**: When another member pays to make a positive vote, that payment will be sent on to the post's creator.Isn't this the same as the return of creation stake? If not, where does the money for 1) come from? I thought this would be from the votes itself.
**Bonus payment**: when a member's post reaches a Curation Score threshold, they will receive an additional payment based on their initial stake, up to doubling their initial stake. .From whom? The platform or the users that voted? I need more details regarding the reward scheme, maybe with an illustration. Are they all solely funded by the votes of the users?When the community pool reaches a certain threshold (could be account balance or could be voted by Canopy community), 70% of the money in the pool is distributed to all members who were active participants since the last bonus payout.How are you thinking about tackling sybil attacks? If canopies payback their members, will that be solely on activity or token spent basis, because the former could be faked and automated to maximize benefits from these bonus payments.
A windfall payout also pays 10% of the community pool back to Canopy maintainers.To ensure that individual communities thrive, canopies have to be created by individuals really caring about certain communities and topics. It might make sense to give these moderators of canopies (that can be chosen by the members themselves) part of the overall money spend within that ecosystem to incentivize them to work according to the community standards. They should also have to deposit a stake for being able to be granted these rights in order to disincentivze them to act maliciously. If they withdraw the stake, their "special moderator status" vanishes.
Question regarding voting What incentivzes people to vote? Why should they vote on a topic rather than repost it with a higher deposit themselves if they like it? => I really like what Cent is doing in that regards, incentivizing users to vote early on posts they like by granting them a share of the following vote rewards, thus distributing the reward of individual posts among the community.
# Tech Canopy is built on Ethereum. In order to speed up finality of transactions, it uses Plasma (at first a third party service).Which third party service are you thinking about?Our token will also represent an ownership stake in the platform itself.It would be great if you could touch upon the goverance in more detail. Will there be a DAO like structure to govern the platforms development?* Should we allow tiering / collation of clans / alliances / etc?I think these should be decided within specific canopies themselves. They should have the feature and may choose to implement it or not.