[#SomeChanges Suggestion] Make hunter pets less oppressive in arena

[diamondsprings]

Introduction

I'm a multiclass player with lots of arena experience in many different expansion including on cataclysm and including hunter, and want to bring the discussion of the problematic state cataclysm hunter pets are in to a "somechanges" thread on this topic rather than the discussion primarily happening in a bug report of Call Pet essentially being in a wotlk state across the board as it is right now (#908) - while i don't think it's a huge deal for it to be this way outside of arena, it is inside the arena where it causes the most issues if it were to be fixed.

Basics

Hunters in cataclysm have 5 pets available to them at any given time that can be dismissed and summoned in combat and in arena as they please, and they all have their own separate spell cooldowns that also tick for the pets that are not active. As such, dismissing and calling another pet effectively resets all pet abilities' cooldowns. The 2 most impactful hunter pet spells as examples:

1. Roar of Sacrifice (RoS), a hunter pet ability on a 1 minute cooldown that makes a friendly target immune to critical strikes for 12 seconds.
2. Bad Manner, a monkey pet ability that disorients for 4 seconds, akin to a scatter shot.

The Problems

For experienced arena players, it's obvious just upon reading the description of RoS that killing through this buff is extremely difficult, in fact most of the time meaningless to even try unless the game is in an unrecoverable state for the opposing team prior to this. For some sharp people that may have done the math already, 5x 12-second RoS buffs on separate 1-minute cooldowns also means a possible 100% uptime on this buff. Resetting Bad Manner is also problematic just for obvious reasons for a class with a lot of CC already. Don't need to go too in depth on this but the way hunters have an absurd amount of CC to trap out of on their own (20 sec Scatter Shot cd + Bad Manner that can be reset at any given time with a 2 sec cast) is not particularly skill expressive either, because in most other expansions you have to coordinate with your teammates to some extent to use your traps to their full potential through an entire game - not the case at all in Cataclysm.

Similar stories in classic

Now to me, this actually isn't a completely new issue to classic players. In both previous expansions, we've had items and spells that arena players believe to have hurt the game overall, even if originally most players were not opposed to keeping them in. But when enough games were played, they would end up being so oppressive and not fun to play with and/or against that halfway through the expansions they were changed anyway for the betterment of the game.

Think of an item like Skull of Impending Doom, or elemental shamans' Earthgrab DRs in wotlk, both of which were changed midway through each expansion. Skull of Impending Doom seems like an interesting mechanic that adds outplay potential by being able to break cc if preemptively used, but in practice, the counterplay is actually minimal in 95% of cases and thus arena players changed their minds on it relatively quickly and it ended up being disabled. The same logic applies to pet resummoning, where at first glance it might seem like a great way to separate a great hunter to an average one, where the great hunter will be anticipating incoming bursts of damage ahead of time by dismissing their pet to have a RoS ready for said damage. But again, in practice, not quite the same, as it's nearly impossible to run out of pet CD's because you have 5 of them so any time RoS is used the best play you can make in almost every single scenario is to dismiss your pet to have RoS ready at all times - with no thought process needed because there's no downside and all upside. Many things like this exist sure, but not with the impact on the game that this has.

I believe this is exactly where pet resummoning is headed - it will hurt the game and it is better off without it.

Potential solutions

There are many ways you can go with this, but i believe the best resolve is simple: disable Dismiss Pet or Call Pet 2-5 in arena. Simply put, this is the main culprit to this oppressive playstyle that isn't fun for the hunter or their enemy. This change wouldn't be to balance hunters one way or the other, but because it is harmful to the arena game mode as a whole.

So if you can go many different ways, why do i go with this route? Consider the following, taken from posts by ex-Community Manager Lore in a forum thread during MoP addressing a change to Dismiss Pet that occured during said MoP expansion:

This change was intentional. [...] Dismiss Pet was frequently being used to bypass cooldowns on certain pet abilities, such as Roar of Sacrifice, or to swap out a dangerously wounded pet for one at full health. Neither of those were intended behavior. Furthermore, our design is that choosing your pet should feel similar to choosing a glyph or talent during pre-match preparation. With this change, Hunters are able to switch pets during the pre-match preparation period, but unable to dismiss them once the match has begun. (https://www.bluetracker.gg/wow/topic/us-en/10859655954-dismiss-pet-nerf/)

Now obviously, this is during MoP - the design philosophy does not necessarily have to perfectly align, but Community Manager Lore does explicitly say that the redesign of pet summons were never intended for you to reset your pet cooldowns and/or swap out a low-HP pet, and these are far and away the primary uses for Dismiss Pet/Call Pet 1-5. As such, I think this is the best course for a change as well although open for discussion obviously.

Discussion

The suggestion to change this is NOT based on whether or not hunters need to be nerfed or buffed, whether blizzard would have or wouldn't have nerfed this if they had known at the time, whether the game should be kept exactly as it was, or anything in that vein. All of that is largely irrelevant in a SomeChanges suggestion, so that makes more sense to stay in the bug report (#908).

This is a suggestion and it is based on what is good for the health of the game on this pet topic, and that's what the discussion should be about.

[EDP445SupporterAlsoTrump2024]

👎 From me.

Hunters in cataclysm are supposed to be dominant class, and this was proven back in the days as well when Jungyup won blizzcon playing PHD. -> Link

If this CUSTOM change ever gets accepted the meta shifts completely. This is NOT what we want. We want original cataclysm experience.

Personally, i believe it's just a l2p issue at this point. Cata has different mechanics compared to Wrath. Instead of asking for custom change you should adapt to the new meta and playstyle. If you're a good player you'll reach high mmr by default regardless of hunters being meta or not.

[Kenniflopper]

Hunters could do this until end of season 14 of Mop (Patch 5.4.2) a WHOLE expansion later, almost 2 expansions infact. Blizzard is not ignorant and gullible. They know what they are doing. It was only changed during the end of mop because they actually have damage there and doesnt need the extra added defensives to play on a competitive level.

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Patch_5.4.2 https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Dismiss_Pet

People also asking for Dismiss Pet changing macros during cata aswell, as it was widely used and known.

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1165659-Hunter-macro-for-pet-changing?highlight=Monkey+pet+swap

It was also used in major tournaments such as NAO and Blizzcon Finals, and even just regular casual dueling people.

https://youtu.be/XvORL45IXdc?si=diC9_o5N_MApdf-L&t=75

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaYHkdYeEbE - Focus on bottom right cds you will see a bunch of roar of sacrifice cds and Hunter's cast bar for dismiss pet cast: GAME 1 = Sac used at 0:42 & Dismiss cast at 1:05 / New Sac used at 1:13 & Dismiss cast at 1:36 / New sac used at 1:39 GAME 2 = Sac used at 2:25 & Dismiss cast at 2:58 / Sac used 3:03 in middle of dismiss cast / Sac used at 3:15 & Dismiss cast at 3:33 / Sac used 4:04 GAME 3 = Sac used at 5:06 & Dismiss cast at 5:20 / Sac used at 5:29 & Dismiss cast at 5:31 / Sac used at 5:52 in middle of dismiss cast / Sac used at 6:11 & Dismiss cast at 6:27 / Sac used at 6:34 in middle of dismiss cast / Sac used at 6:43 in middle of dismiss cast / Sac used 6:51 in middle of dismiss cast / Sac used at 7:24 & Dismiss cast at 7:27 GAME 4 = Sac used at 8:45 & Dismiss cast at 9:15 / Sac used at 9:40 & Dismiss cast at 9:55 / Sac used at 10:05

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWY9XkTVsek - Focus on bottom right cds you will see a bunch of roar of sacrifice cds and Hunter's cast bar for dismiss pet cast: GAME 1 = Sac used at 0:32 & Dismiss cast at 1:22 / Sac used at 1:26 & Dismiss cast at 1:56 / Sac used at 2:15 & Dismiss cast at 2:25 / Sac used at 2:31 at the end of dismiss cast / Sac used at 3:11 & Dismiss cast at 3:16 / Sac used at 3:41 & Dismiss cast at 3:52 / Sac used at 5:09 & dismiss cast at 5:29 / Sac used at 5:33 GAME 2 = Sac used at 6:40 & Dismiss cast at 7:27 / Sac used at 7:31 & Dismiss cast at 8:11 / Sac used at 8:17 & Dismiss cast at 8:36 / Sac used at 8:52 & Dismiss cast at 9:16 / Sac used at 9:22 & Dismiss cast at 9:55 / Sac used at 9:59 & dismiss cast at 10:47 / Sac used at 11:05 & Dismiss cast at 11:09 / Sac used at 12:01 & Dismiss cast at 12:19 / Sac used at 12:24 GAME 3 = Sac used at 13:50 & Dismiss cast at 14:25 / Sac used at 14:38 & Dismiss cast at 14:59 / Sac used at 15:05 & dismiss cast at 15:21 / Sac used at 15:25

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nboqopECe5I - Focus on bottom right cds you will see a bunch of roar of sacrifice cds and Hunter's cast bar for dismiss pet cast: GAME 1 = sac used at 0:26 & dismiss cast at 0:39 / sac used at 0:47 GAME 2 = sac used at 1:25 & dismiss cast at 1:50 / sac used at 2:00 & dismiss cast at 2:32 / sac used at 2:36 & dismiss cast at 2:36 / sac used at 2:49 & dismiss cast at 3:01 / sac used at 3:08 & dismiss cast at 3:32 / sac used at 4:01 & dismiss cast at 4:11 / sac used at 4:16 & dismiss cast at 4:24 / sac used at 5:24

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jDr2QkDtfw - Focus on bottom left cds you will see a bunch of roar of sacrifice cds and Hunter's cast bar for dismiss pet cast: GAME 1 = sac used at 2:45 & dismiss cast at 2:47 / sac used at 2:56 & pet abandon at 3:25 / sac used at 3:28 & dismiss cast at 3:49

Even famous players back then was doing it and uploading pvp montages to their youtube channels such as Braindeadly and Tosan!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1jk5nxa2nU - PLAYER POV: Notice when he cast dismiss pet and summons a different monkey the cooldowns are reset cause each monkey has their own cooldown timers Timestamps = 3:20 & 3:46 & 6:21 & 8:01 & 11:32 & 12:24 & 15:37

Having this Mechanic for Hunter's is absolutely crucial for Hunters in Cataclysm and is a core part of our Kit and how they work in PvP, and sadly without it we do not function in a PvP environment.

We want the Cataclysm experience to stay true to the core and having some people use their influence online to skewer the publics opinion towards their own agenda does not seem fair and right,

If we start straying away from the original Cataclysm experience with such a massive change to the meta, where does it end? If this custom nerf to hunters will go through and completely remove them from the competitive scene, at what point do we stop nerfing other classes that suddently become super broken and overpowered such as rogues and mages? Cataclysm PvP is balanced around the fact that hunters has the ability to do this in arena, and theres no denying that. As shown above it was widely used in a variety of tournaments and even from casual players.

I Hope you consider keeping this in the game because without it, Hunters do not function in a competitive PvP scene and will simply vanish from the arena ladders.

[skinnay-dev]

Since I'm not a diehard on #nochanges I'll just say if they do fix this, it needs to be accompanied by compensating buffs such that hunter remains at a similar power level and plays a similar role in arena. Just nerfing it and putting hunters in the dirt for the 3rd expansion in a row isn't an acceptable option, and if this is the thing they decide to fix after neglecting trap arming time (#451) master's call fizzling (#488), feigning penance (#483) and various other bugs for years, it would be a huge slap in the face to hunter PvPers.

Others can give more feedback about what those compensating buffs could be, but I think we'd need more defensive capability if we can't RoS as much, and better focus generation so we can actually do impactful things other than dismiss pets in the downtime when we have low focus.

[Kenniflopper]

Since I'm not a diehard on #nochanges I'll just say if they do fix this, it needs to be accompanied by compensating buffs such that hunter remains at a similar power level and plays a similar role in arena. Just nerfing it and putting hunters in the dirt for the 3rd expansion in a row isn't an acceptable option, and if this is the thing they decide to fix after neglecting trap arming time (#451) master's call fizzling (#488), feigning penance (#483) and various other bugs for years, it would be a huge slap in the face to hunter PvPers.

Others can give more feedback about what those compensating buffs could be, but I think we'd need more defensive capability if we can't RoS as much, and better focus generation so we can actually do impactful things other than dismiss pets in the downtime when we have low focus.

First of all, they would need to increase our dmg by legit 50% and add some sort of extra defensive to our kit to MAYBE make us abit more viable in PvP, but i dont even see that helping as hunters are supposed to be a support class in Cata PvP revolving aroudn their control with Bad Manner and Roar of Sacrifice ability in PvP.

[tmpnm099]

Why are we still referencing Jungyup blizzcon finals when it was already established that he practically won without it. As mentioned in the other post "63 seconds saved on his RoS cd over 30 minutes of game time", is an entirely different world from how it is used now. It's clear that one side is arguing for the health of the game and the other is a vocal minority arguing for the sake of themselves. It's incredibly obvious to someone looking from an outside perspective that it is clearly unintended (as confirmed by the blue post) and does not belong in any iteration of WoW.

[dedestus]

i agree, this needs re-balance in the upcoming release of cata classic. do not make the same mistake as was done with "preg paladin" spec which would have not existed if it was discovered in the original wrath of the lich king game i am pretty confident. so do not repeat your mistakes blizzard and make the game more enjoyable before the game is releasing.

[connie26x]

Dismissing pet was and still is a crucial part of cataclysm; without it, hunters are unplayable. Also, the whole point of Classic WoW is to relive the feeling of the good old expansion. No custom changes, please.

[Exizt01]

Introduction

I'm a multiclass player with lots of arena experience in many different expansion including on cataclysm and including hunter, and want to bring the discussion of the problematic state cataclysm hunter pets are in to a "somechanges" thread on this topic rather than the discussion primarily happening in a bug report of Call Pet essentially being in a wotlk state across the board as it is right now (#908) - while i don't think it's a huge deal for it to be this way outside of arena, it is inside the arena where it causes the most issues if it were to be fixed.

-I think even though you wrote this long message, it was not thought out. You claim to be a multi-classer etc but lacked the knowledge to even do research on the only 2 spells that you provided for example with hunter cc i.e scatter and bad manner. If you talk to any high tier player of glad or r1 level they will say that hunters die super easy when we dont have ros. Every class has sustainable damage and defensives outside of hunter. For example, ferals have some of the highest single target in the game and the best defensives with frenzied regen, barkskin, Thick hide, survival instincts, and bearform itself being insane as well. DKs lichborne can top themselves from 10% in 3 globals, on top of having 2 trinkets and massive aoe/single target with necro. Rogues having recup which increasing healing on themselves on top of cloak, 2 smoke bombs (which is probable one of the most broken things in the game) a melee wall, 2 vanishes and evasion (im aware cloak and the melee wall share cds). I could go on with this list.

-People sit on the excuse that hunters arent doing damage cause we are just dismissing, but if you look at the damage breakdown of details after a game, its almost 60-70% chimera shot which has a 10 sec cd (9sec after glyph) and is always kept off cd. autos and arcane shots doing maybe less than 10% of our damage each total in a game, not to mention chimera is about half of our focus bar and arcane shot is a lot of focus where we might need it to be pressing tranq shot to dispel magic which also costs a lot of focus. So no, we aren't missing globals on arcane shot or autos. the class is just not doing damage outside of one button, the class in cataclysm is a support class with burst cds and thats it.

-I also think what you said about this being good for the game is completely wrong and i think you've been misconstrued. For one, hunters in the meta is keeping completely fried comps from being broken with no counters like how TC felt in wrath almost. Comps like RLS are countered by a good thug, where as RLS is considered the god tier comp in later seasons.

-you also said "coordinate with your team to setup traps" but we spent an entire expansion of wrath where trap arming times were bugged and had a delay of just under 3 sec to arm, so even coordinating with your team you'd find paladins walking out of traps for free or shamans leaving cc in time to ground a trap that shouldve been guaranteed, on top of many other bugs that skinnay listed in another comment. Bad manner will be outplayable and so will traps like always, bad manner is kickable, the pet is ccable and you can shut down the hunter as well. You can silence hunters with a blanket or a garrot or even disarm the hunter to avoid them sending a trap to your healer. I think people are just following a trend of endless complaints from popular streamers, its abundantly clear that you are doing this now with your lack of information on other spells in our toolkit that you listed.

-Overall id say give it a try and do your best to outplay hunters and learn the metas like everyone has to do, people are complaining before its out when things in wrath like shield wall with a 2hander on warriors sat for 2 full seasons which was something that had no counterplay unlike hunters in cata where everything we do has outplay.

[Pozzel]

Good Day, I wanted to give my thoughts on the topic and considered changes to pet dismiss and swapping to a new pet in the arena and how it impacted the game and helped hunters stay relevant back in the original cata. This is coming from someone who played retail cata a ton, and I miss it till this day. First of all, I would kindly remind people how NOT dominant hunters were in 4.3.4 back on retail. There were a total of 2 Hunters in Eu getting the Rank 1 title in 3s during season 11, the season where dismiss pet arguably became a thing. That was me and Garxz (who people claim that he did wintrade this title, I have no idea if that is correct). You can see it on the Arenajunkies archive (https://web.archive.org/web/20120915171421/http://www.arenajunkies.com/rankings/3v3/). And yes, a hunter won the blizzcon final, using dismiss pet mechanic. Then again, he was THE ONLY hunter even qualifying for the tournament; all the other hunters had not even made it thus far.

Then again, that's just a reminder, that what you saw on private servers, won't exactly be the same on retail WoW.

So, regarding pet dismiss: This is, in my opinion, a crucial component to the hunter gameplay in Cataclysm. It gives hunters a unique playstyle, with alot of control and utility. What you're lacking in overall damage, outside of your rapid fire, you make up for with utility and defense.

So for anyone who doesn't know how it works,. Hunters can have up to 5 different pets at their disposal. These could be 5 Unique pets, or e.g., five Monkeys. Every pet had its own abilities and pet talents that u could specc into. That's why dismissing your pet and getting ANOTHER one out gave u additional access to that pet's specific CDs. Those do not have to be Roar of Sacrifice or Bad Manner, u could use it on any pet ability available.

You can see me doing it on my YouTube channel on multiple occasions. This was mandatory into certain combs, cause u would just die otherwise (im going to show some videos of RMP instantly swapping on ros and killing the hunter in a heartbeat)

First clip: At 3:14, you see me dismissing my pet (german client, sadly) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfuNu4JTU30&t=203s

Second clip: 1:06 I cast dismiss pet. The enemy rogue uses a smokebomb on it to prevent me from getting a new pet, fully aware of what I am doing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKhfPR2iahs Third clip:

At 1:34 i dismiss my pet; the enemy rogue blinds it, to stop it from going through. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LheT15X9SQ

These are just examples of me using that mechanic 12 years ago, and people already knew how to counter it.

But see for urself on how a good rmp destroys arguably the best hunter to play at that time as soon as he uses Roar of Sacrifice on someone else: u can watch multiple games to see how it goes, but during the first game it gets very obvious. Check: From 0:48 to 1:03. Hunter uses ROS on the healer and dies to the opener. That happens multiple times on that video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QOxniq6tVs

What I keep trying to say on a what seems like never-ending discussion cycle: I want to relive Cata the way it was. That's how classic always wanted to be, as far as I know. Give people the chance to play the expansion they like again, as close to the original one as it was, with all its strengths and weaknesses. It was the time when I fell in love with the game and the class. I don't mind it working differently than on private servers; I want the original thing, the one I was looking forward to playing for so long.

[jimmyiwnl]

i don't see what's the point of discussing such topic, when that's how it worked back in retail cata. as you can see in the video below https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1jk5nxa2nU&t=203s

1. if Blizzard does change this, it will make the game unplayable for hunters, hunters literally die in a single cheap shot / kidney without SAC on.
2. there are many way to counter SAC such as swapping target, not to mention every class has a decent amount of interrupts, specially rogue and ferals which can interrupt "Dismiss pet"
3. Also limiting it to 1 pet would make it that hunter can trap once every 1min , which wouldn't even be fair. cz no hunter will trap off scatter shot in arenas where everyone is trying to eat traps.
4. the only good thing about hunter in cata is their CC and SAC. without these hunter will be a useless class since they do 0 dmg outside of their burst.
5. Anyway i'm sure majority of players don't want custom changes and would like to experience cata classic how it was originally

[Zevcollins]

I really think this whole problem is representative of how deeply flawed Blizzard's approach to a one-patch-classic is, especially for PVP. So much handwringing over what initial conditions to set for the expansion seems laughable when we know it's built upon historically inaccurate assumptions for how the game's going to play out in 2024 (just look at how devastating private server metagameplay was for wotlk.)

Make a decision now and then for the love of god, PATCH the game regularly and make adjustments to balance and problematic mechanics. Nobody is playing classic arena because they desperately want it to be exactly as it was back in the day (impossible with modern gameplay, addons, access to information, everything) they just want to enjoy a version of WoW arena before the bloat messiness of modern WoW.

[Nazpvp]

Respectfully, I disagree with the proposal to prevent hunter pets from resetting cooldowns in Cataclysm arenas. While I understand the frustration that can come from facing skilled hunter teams utilizing pet abilities effectively, I believe that such mechanics add depth and diversity to arena gameplay. Hunter with this mechanic still remains one of the hardest classes to play and has one of the highest skill ceilings in the game. In addition, hunter only preforms well in the hands of a good player.

Hunter pets play a crucial role in the class's toolkit, offering unique utility and strategic options. Restricting their ability to reset cooldowns through calling different pets would not only diminish the complexity of playing as a hunter, but also limit the creative strategies that teams can employ. Arena matches thrive on dynamic interactions and adaptability, and pet cooldown resets contribute to this dynamic environment.

Furthermore, addressing balance concerns by simply nerfing hunter pets could have unintended consequences on the meta as a whole, potentially weakening the class overall and its identity in a way that is detrimental to the game's diversity. Certain comps would not be kept in check as a result if hunter pets were nerfed such as RLS (Rogue/Lock/Resto Shaman). A nerf to hunter pets would also be an insult to the hunter community for the 3rd classic expansion in a row, as hunters have had numerous bugs involving their class in TBC and WOTLK that ultimately hurt them significantly.

I believe that preserving the unique mechanics of the class, including pet cooldown resets, ultimately enriches the gameplay experience for all participants.

[dedestus]

Dismissing pet was and still is a crucial part of cataclysm; without it, hunters are unplayable. Also, the whole point of Classic WoW is to relive the feeling of the good old expansion. No custom changes, please.

this cannot be seen as a valid point of view as both pve and pvp were impacted by custom changes through tbc and wotlk classic, so i do not see an issue to continue doing so in cataclysm. we were given a lot of custom changes already and people here also are vocal about getting increased gearing speed etc because what we do not want is to "relive the good old cataclysm" where blizzard did not fix a bug as an oversight they can correct in the present day

[0msa]

Suggesting that hunter pets should function exactly the same in Cataclysm Classic as they did in original Cataclysm is a non serious argument made exclusively by hunter players for their own benefit, at the expense of the health of PVP as a whole. Pet functionality in original Cataclysm is that hunters had the ability to dismiss and summon unique pets 1-5 in arena combat, and, more importantly, each pet not sharing ability cooldowns. This functionality must be changed for three reasons: 1) this behavior is a bug, 2) this bug promotes degenerate and oppressive gameplay in arena, and 3) fixing this functionality matches the precedent set by many other custom changes made by blizzard to improve arena gameplay in a modern context and is necessary for the health of arena.

First, dismissing and summoning pets in arena to bypass pet ability cooldowns is simply a bug. This functionality is unintuitive and does not match the behavior of similar units (i.e. mage and lock pet cooldowns). In Mists of Pandaria, Blizzard even stated this was a bug:

Dismiss Pet was frequently being used to bypass cooldowns on certain pet abilities, such as Roar of Sacrifice, or to swap out a dangerously wounded pet for one at full health. Neither of those were intended behavior. Furthermore, our design is that choosing your pet should feel similar to choosing a glyph or talent during pre-match preparation.

With this change, Hunters are able to switch pets during the pre-match preparation period, but unable to dismiss them once the match has begun.

source

There is no logical reason why this would be unintended behavior in MoP, but intended behavior in Cataclysm.

Furthermore, the only reason abilities did not share cooldowns across pets was a technical limitation, not an intentional design choice. When asked why RoS did not share a cooldown across pets, Blizzard responded:

We'd considered doing something like that, but there's actually major technical hurdles with the way Dismiss Pet works that make it a much bigger task than it sounds. We'd have to make some pretty scary changes to the way pets work (in the underlying code, at least) to be able to implement a shared cooldown on pet abilities. We may end up revisiting the idea sometime in the future, but we simply did not have time for it in the 5.4.2 development cycle.

source

Logically, and by blizzard’s own admission, this functionality of hunter pets in original Cataclysm was bugged. It should be fixed for that reason alone.

Second, the ability to summon 5 separate pets that do not share ability cooldowns causes unhealthy and imbalanced gameplay. Two pet abilities are particularly relevant in the context of arena.

Roar of Sacrifice (RoS) - Protects a friendly target from critical strikes, making attacks against that target unable to be critical strikes, but 20% of all damage taken by that target is also taken by the pet. Lasts 12 sec.

Bad Manner - Hurls a handful of something special at the target, blinding them for 4 sec. Rude.

These two abilities are extremely powerful, providing significant defensive (RoS) and crowd control capabilities (Bad Manner). The functionality of dismissing and summoning multiple pets to bypass the cooldowns on these abilities results in hunters having an disproportionate amount of defensives and CC relative to other classes.

This is not only imbalanced in an arena context, but also unintuitive and unhealthy gameplay for the hunter. Spending a nontrivial amount of time casting Dismiss Pet and Call Pet 1-5 during PVP combat is likely not an intended gameplay style. Skilled pet management is certainly a cornerstone of hunter gameplay, but this falls far beyond what is reasonable. There are other examples of this type of degenerate and/or unbalanced gameplay emerging in classic versions of TBC and Wotlk and subsequently being fixed, such as Bearweaving feral druids, spell criticals causing Warrior Deep Wounds, Death Knight Gargoyle snapshotting, and many more.

Third, this pet functionality fits the precedent of changes Blizzard has made to improve the health of the game, given it is not only unbalanced but also promotes clunky and unhealthy gameplay. It is clear that the design philosophy has shifted from #NoChanges in Classic to #SomeChanges in TBC and beyond to improve the health of the game.

Preserving the exact functionality of mechanics is not a design goal, but rather making changes to improve the health of the game in reaction to emergent gameplay. There are far too many changes that fit under this category that Blizzard has made to list them all. Here are some examples of changes that were made specifically to improve the state of arena:

• Starting with Season 3, the following items won’t be allowed inside Arenas: Nigh-Invulnerability Belt, Net-o-Matic Projector, Dazzling Longsword, Silent Fang, Skull of Impending Doom source
• Mind Quickening Gem is no longer usable in Arenas. source
• Meta gems are no longer swappable in combat or in Arena matches. (and all gems) source
• Shaman - Fixed an issue that caused the Earthgrab effect from the Shaman talent Storm, Earth, and Fire to not respect diminishing returns. source
• Fixed an issue that caused spells with Equipped Item requirements to not be removed when the player no longer meets the requirements of the spell. A notable example of this is a warrior swapping to a shield to cast Spell Reflection, and then immediately unequipping the shield. With this fix the spell reflection aura is removed after the shield is removed. (and “2H Wall”) source
• Dalaran Sewers jump fix.
• Changing how zones are displayed on the friends list.

Many of these changes modify the functionality of items, abilities, maps, or game systems in reaction to emergent gameplay, despite this functionality existing in the original versions of these games. These changes are necessary given the significant differences in meta gameplay between the original and classic versions of the game. Abusable mechanics (bugged or intended) in the classic versions of the game are used in far greater numbers than in the original version of the game, often causing significant disruptions to the original intention of game designers and experience of the players. The functionality of hunters being able to dismiss and summon pets 1-5 that do not share cooldowns in Cataclysm certainly falls under this category, and must not be preserved in Cataclysm Classic.

[Whiteshadovvropemaxxing]

Hunters are only class from range DPS that are forced to sit stuns on cataclysm without any reduction or escape, such as mage blinking having blazing speed to delay being stunned, shadow priest with shadow form passive dmg reduction, warlock with soul link and demon armor etc etc, without roar of sacrifice being available to them they are pretty much a target dummy for anybody in the game, and not just the part where they are completely defenseless to anybody in the game without having roar of sacrifice as an option to press they provide very little dmg and they serve as a support class that provides roar of sacrifice and CC with bad manner, hunter on average every arena despite being able to control the enemy team he still does 1/3 of the other range DPS classes(shadow priest/warlock/balance druid/mage/elemental shaman) so if he has no sac/bad manner to offer for his team he provides nothing and I don't know why is this even a discussion when such feature existed on original cataclysm and the comments by people who are against it look biased just to make the specs they play be the meta from the looks of it.

[r1wrathandy]

@0msa You argue very much on hunter being this "OP" class that has no counterplay, but if you take a look at the og cataclysm 3v3 ladder, there were only 2 hunters who reached r1 in s11. No hunters achieved rank1 title in s9 or s10. And yes, they all used dismiss and there are videos proving it quoted by kenniflopper somehwere in this thread. Source

This whole post comes out of malice with sole intention of custom nerfing hunters, this is not right.

[dedestus]

@0msa You argue very much on hunter being this "OP" class that has no counterplay, but if you take a look at the og cataclysm 3v3 ladder, there were only 2 hunters who reached r1 in s11. No hunters achieved rank1 title in s9 or s10. And yes, they all used dismiss and there are videos proving it quoted by kenniflopper somehwere in this thread. ->Source

This whole post comes out of malice with sole intention of custom nerfing hunters, this is not right.

this is very hard to compare to modern classic standards as we will have way more available rank 1 spots, as well as being able to obtain rank 1 titles from 2vs2 which was not possible back in the day.

perma ros uptime in 2vs2 is obviously way easier to maintain than in 3vs3

[StupidRandomx]

this is very hard to compare to modern classic standards as we will have way more available rank 1 spots, as well as being able to obtain rank 1 titles from 2vs2 which was not possible back in the day.

perma ros uptime in 2vs2 is obviously way easier to maintain than in 3vs3

This is based on speculation, you don't know that and you shouldn't jump to conclusions.

[Cataenjoyer]

While I understand the concern about hunter pets resetting cooldowns in arenas, they should not be nerfed as this would have sever implications on cataclysm arena as a whole.

Firstly, hunter pets resetting cooldowns can be seen as a strategic element of gameplay rather than an imbalance. It adds depth to the class and requires skillful management of pet abilities by both the hunter and their opponents. Removing this feature could potentially simplify gameplay and detract from the unique mechanics that hunters bring to the arena.

Secondly, addressing this concern could have broader implications for class balance. If we start altering specific abilities or mechanics for one class in certain scenarios, it sets a precedent that may lead to further requests for adjustments across other classes. This could create a slippery slope of constant tweaking and rebalancing, which may not necessarily improve the overall arena experience. For example smoke bomb makes rogues an s tier class why not remove that also? Sprit link for shamans, the list goes on.

Finally, hunter pets resetting cooldowns have been a part of the game for a long time and are integral to the class identity. Removing or altering this feature could disrupt the established gameplay patterns and negatively impact the enjoyment of hunters who have grown accustomed to this aspect of their class.

In conclusion, while I appreciate the desire for fairness and balance in arena gameplay, I believe that maintaining the current mechanics for hunter pets is ultimately beneficial for the diversity and complexity of PvP encounters in Cataclysm.

[skinnay-dev]

perma ros uptime in 2vs2 is obviously way easier to maintain than in 3vs3

That's a great point, I hope Blizzard will indirectly nerf RoS by ensuring that 2v2 titles are not awarded in Cataclysm Classic.

[dedestus]

perma ros uptime in 2vs2 is obviously way easier to maintain than in 3vs3

That's a great point, I hope Blizzard will indirectly nerf RoS by ensuring that 2v2 titles are not awarded in Cataclysm Classic.

i have lost hope for that happening after enduring wotlk classic with 2s and 5s titles available. both should be removed in cataclysm classic as they are equally degenerate in terms of balancing and gatekeeping (just look at 5s ladder) but this is a seperate topic to be discussed in a new post.

[ManneN1]

Making this custom change would be awful to the promise of Classic.

I supported Classic from the start - because I knew I would enjoy Cata and MoP. I have been happily playing both TBC and WotLK despite my favoured comps being complete garbage - all because I knew that in Cata it would be my time to shine, and my favourite comps would be the best/S tier.

If you (Blizzard) are even slightly considering making this massive custom change, then why didn't you nerf the following classes/specs - all of which were oppressively broken and obnoxious at various stages of the game: WotLK: Preg Paladin / Warrior / Holy Paladin / Elemental / Destruction TBC: Warrior / Resto Druid / Rogue / Affliction ?

Had we known that the game was open to such major changes then tons of people would've obviously complained to see such major changes before - already in TBC and WotLK. You've previously done your absolute best to avoid causing any impact to PvP when making any major changes - for great reasons.

The only PvP changes you've made in the past have been to remove exploits and weird low-level items that were not commonly used/known about back then (which have since been theorycrafted into the meta). Multiple pets having different CDs does not fall into either category.

Why is it only Hunters that are not allowed to be S tier? Given the amount of game breaking bugs which have been, and still are, plaguing the class (trap arming time being the most obvious one) this would be an absolute slap in the face to all Hunter comp players - telling them that they are simply not allowed to be the best and that they don't matter.

Note: No, 2H+Shield Wall was not "well known". It was an obvious exploit (you're not supposed to be able to have 2H while using Shield Wall). Pets having different CDs on the other hand is both lore-wise logical and was well known about. It was also only changed / prevented in late MoP for Hunters and mid WoD for Warlocks - if it was an exploit wouldn't it have been fixed for both at the same time? No, the "it's an exploit" argument doesn't fly.

[dedestus]

i am not sure why this argument of the "essence of classic" or "promise" is even mentioned. we have a game with beta, gamma, alpha dungeons, custom glyphs for pve - you name it. additional custom changes are already being made for cataclysm such as removing certain guild perks and altering existing ones and how they function. there is no original classic "experience" or journey to follow. the game has somewhat active development and is subject to change which should obviously include looking at odd counterintuitive game mechanics such as permanently resummoning your pet.

[msb9711]

Honestly, whenever this topic gets discussed, the fact that the only people that actually defend the Dismiss Pet mechanic being in the game are Hunters, is very telling. As someone else said, it's a clear indication of people arguing for the sake of their class being absolutely oppressive through a non-intended mechanic instead of caring about the health of the game.

First of all, the argument that it was only fixed at the end of MoP, isn't really relevant here, they admitted that the mechanic was UNINTENTIONAL and something that they did not wish to be the focus of Hunter's playstyle. Why did it took so long to fix, you may ask? Well, they also addressed that in the blue post by stating that they had many technical difficulties around Dismiss Pet and it was actually a very complicated thing to do. One would imagine that these technical difficulties aren't relevant anymore in 2024, giving us no reason to keep an unintended bug in the game.

Secondly, anyone arguing that this mechanic was widespread back in Cataclysm to the point that it would've quickly caught Blizzard's attention is arguing in bad faith. The fact that some of the absolute best players in the World at that time were using the mechanic sporadically is not evidence of widespread use. Alot of footage is available on YouTube of tournament play from that time and what you will find is that the best players from then were using this mechanic here and there throughout games, something that simply is not the reality of Cataclym Classic players in 2024.

As a final point, Blizzard has shown a willingness to adjust things that existed in the past during the OG expansions for the better health of the game, some examples being: Addition of Chronoboon Displacer, removal of MQG from Arenas (a DIRECT nerf to Mages in TBC), removal of engineering items, like Nigh-Invulnerability Belt and other niche Vanilla items like Skull of Impending Doom/Silent Fang from Arenas, and DK Gargoyle snapshotting. These changes, while not consistent to how the expansions were in their original form, were made with the health of the game in mind and to adjust some unintended behaviours that weren't an issue back in the day, but ended up being in the hands of modern players in the Classic expansions. Classic expansions are NOT supposed to be a 1-1 pristine copy of how the game was back then, nor it is even possible to be, the players are very different and the amount of information readily available is much larger.

I truly hope Blizzard does something about this, it's a universally hated mechanic (even by alot of Hunters) that forces a style of play that the devs in 2012-13 judged it to not be intentional and buggy. I really understand Hunter players frustration with this possible change and why only they defend it, although i believe that supporting the change while asking for some sort of buff as compensation would be a much better way to try to promote the health of Arenas and the game in general, especially when #SomeChanges already is a path Blizzard is taking.

[gekkuxz]

Would like to add it's been a similar case with :

-Elemental shaman earthbind totem nerfed in WotLK Classic as it also was unintended for the root to not DR : got changed https://www.wowhead.com/wotlk/news/wotlk-classic-patch-3-4-2-ptr-live-patch-notes-332770 Shaman - Fixed an issue that caused the Earthgrab effect from the Shaman talent Storm, Earth, and Fire to not respect diminishing returns.

-Warrior shield wall up with a 2Hander (blizzlike) : got changed https://github.com/JamminL/cata-classic-bugs/issues/392 https://github.com/JamminL/cata-classic-bugs/issues/570 This was a hot topic for a while during Wotlk and ended up being changed

-Shadowmeld we currently have is not blizzlike but was changed for the better : got changed https://github.com/JamminL/cata-classic-bugs/issues/476

-Paladin AOE taunt stopping drinks : got changed https://github.com/JamminL/cata-classic-bugs/issues/646

-Warrior Taste for Blood : got changed https://github.com/JamminL/cata-classic-bugs/issues/252

-Wound Poison 'stacking' debuff : got changed https://github.com/JamminL/cata-classic-bugs/issues/601 It's never been proved that using different ranks of Wound Poison wouldn't allow for the debuffs to 'stack' to help cover poison dispels yet it's been fixed regardless as it didn't make sense

-Hit Rating overcap allowing you to not miss into talents/racials : got changed https://github.com/JamminL/cata-classic-bugs/issues/143

-Heartbeat CC mechanic : got changed https://github.com/JamminL/cata-classic-bugs/issues/48 On this post you can see Aggrend confirming heartbeat was indeed in the original 3.3.5 game but decided to get rid of it

These changes aren't even remotely close to being as broken as the unintended dismiss mechanic hunters used to have back in original cata but blizzard still changed them, why? Because it makes it a healthier environment for everyone. It's not a personal vendetta into hunters in general it's for the greater good so that majority of people get to enjoy the game in a fair state.

[Whiteshadovvropemaxxing]

Would like to add it's been a similar case with :

-Elemental shaman earthbind totem nerfed in WotLK Classic as it also was unintended for the root to not DR : got changed https://www.wowhead.com/wotlk/news/wotlk-classic-patch-3-4-2-ptr-live-patch-notes-332770 Shaman - Fixed an issue that caused the Earthgrab effect from the Shaman talent Storm, Earth, and Fire to not respect diminishing returns.

-Warrior shield wall up with a 2Hander (blizzlike) : got changed #392 #570 This was a hot topic for a while during Wotlk and ended up being changed

-Shadowmeld we currently have is not blizzlike but was changed for the better : got changed #476

-Paladin AOE taunt stopping drinks : got changed #646

-Warrior Taste for Blood : got changed #252

-Wound Poison 'stacking' debuff : got changed #601 It's never been proved that using different ranks of Wound Poison wouldn't allow for the debuffs to 'stack' to help cover poison dispels yet it's been fixed regardless as it didn't make sense

-Hit Rating overcap allowing you to not miss into talents/racials : got changed #143

-Heartbeat CC mechanic : got changed #48 On this post you can see Aggrend confirming heartbeat was indeed in the original 3.3.5 game but decided to get rid of it

These changes aren't even remotely close to being as broken as the unintended dismiss mechanic hunters used to have back in original cata but blizzard still changed them, why? Because it makes it a healthier environment for everyone. It's not a personal vendetta into hunters in general it's for the greater good so that majority of people get to enjoy the game in a fair state.

None of the changes listed above have even close impact to what dismiss pet does for the hunter, 80% of hunter's purpose inside arena is to provide cc and sac and I do not think any of the changes above that are made accomplished disabling a class completely from the game

[Snipin]

How it began Rotating pets as a Hunter in Cataclysm is a mechanic that has been utilized the entirety of the expansion. While it may not have been widespread, it was certainly used, even as early as patch 4.0.3.

In this video you can see Hasuit dismissing quite frequently. Keep in mind how early this video is into the expansion. Patch 4.0.3 is very early season 9 and he was already utilizing this mechanic.

https://www.warcraftmovies.com/movieview.php?id=172781

At that point during cata you can see Bad Manner "monkey stun" was literally a STUN. ( In case anyone wonders why it's referred to as monkey stun ) Obviously Blizzard knew about this and felt it was too powerful, so they eventually changed Bad Manner to break on damage.

Hunter players continued to use Dismiss Pet in arena, and you can see Players like Braindeadly, Tosan, and Vanns use it in their videos relatively frequently.

Meta and Player Skill One very important thing to keep in mind while watching these videos: Player knowledge, skill, and overall meta was extremely different at this point in time.

The overall "skill cap" of even the highest level of players was far below the standard of what we see and expect today.

That said, you can expect Hunter's to be more proficient with the use of the tools at their disposal.

However, you should also expect that their opponents will be more proficient in utilizing theirs aswell.

This evolution of player skill and ability to utilize their tool kit much more effectively has created certain playstyles as an answer to the meta.

If Dismiss pet were to be stripped from Hunter's, it would essentially send the class back in time.

While every other class is able to keep their advancements in playstyle and skill expression that has come with the years of experience and the evolvement of the game as a whole, Hunter's lose theirs.

The unforeseen ramifications of losing Dismiss Pet Hunter's in Cataclysm rely on Dismiss Pet in arena for more than one thing.

Obviously players are very fixated on Roar of Sacrifice, however that is only half of the reason Hunter's are rotating through their pets in arena.

Hunter's rely on their monkey's Bad Manner in order to reliably land Freezing Traps. Since Bad Manner makes the target stand still, it is the most reliable way for a Hunter to trap consistently.

With the way Hunter is designed in Cataclysm, their 2v2 and 3v3 comps require them to get frequent CC in order to burn through the enemy's defensive CDs and eventually score a kill. Without being able to Dismiss Pet in arena, Hunter's would only be able to land a reliable trap every one minute. This would significantly harm the strength of their viability.

The importance of Roar of Sacrifice Hunter's are a class that is very vulnerable to dying. They have no passive damage mitigation (Soul link, Shadowform, Ice Armor), no ways out of or answers to stuns (Ice block, blink, Dispersion), and their only "defensive" cooldown (Deterrence) is an ability that is best used before anything hits them, or to avoid incoming CC so they can either land a trap or move away to safety.

Their only answer to prevent from dying is Roar of Sacrifice.

However, even Hunter's current playstyle of rotating through their pets does not come without risk, despite the claims that it does.

There are many ways individual classes can respond to Hunter's: Forcing the Hunter to use Roar of Sacrifice on a teammate, and swapping to the hunter. Force the Hunter to use Roar of Sacrifice on themselves, CCing them and swapping to a teammate. Realizing that Roar of Sacrifice is on CD and interrupt Hunter's Dismiss Pet cast with CC.

All of these are techniques that can be used against Hunter's, and all of them are valuable and skillful moves in PVP, which differentiates players ability from one another and rewards solid play. They are also techniques that are already utilized against other classes already in one shape or another, so why should they not be used against Hunter's?

Mechanics that classes revolve around should not be changed Dismiss Pet is not a bug like Shadowmeld being inconsistent. It is not a clearly unintentional bug like being able to use Shield wall (which requires a shield) while wearing a 2 hander. It is not an abused mechanic which requires a bunch of weakauras and macros, like applying a whole new set of gems while playing arena.

Dismiss Pet is a core mechanic of the Hunter class in Cataclysm and has been utilized from the very beginning.

Importing different expansion logic The blue post in MoP regarding Dismiss Pet should not be used as ammunition to make changes to Cataclysm. MoP completely overhauled the game and every class in it. Classes toolkits grew, damage profiles changed, etc.

Hunter's had many ways of obtaining CC on their own (Wyvern Sting into Trap, Binding Shot into Trap, more abundant / available stuns from teammates due to the addition of more spells to the game)

Hunter was an entirely different class in MoP than it is in Cataclysm, it dealt far more damage and had access to more tools.

To take the design philosophy of a change made in MoP and use it on a class which is completely different in the expansion prior does not make sense.

I would have never personally dreamt of asking for Cataclysm's version of Deterrence to be imported into WotLK, despite WotLKs version of Deterrence being one of my most disliked parts of the class. Why? Because that is simply how the class works in that expansion.

This example can be used for any blue post or reasoning used for the removal or change of a spell later on down the road. It is not the correct logic to be using when looking at something like this.

Every expansion is different, and each expansions version of a class can be vastly different. Leave them to be their own, rather than mix and match design philosphies.

This is supposed to be Cataclysm Classic afterall, not Cataclysm Custom.

To Summarize: The goal so far has been to get everything blizzlike, whether or not the change is beneficial or detrimental to the class. Why should we stray from that logic now, especially on something so crucial to a class?

Hunter's ability to balance putting out damage, landing CC, and rotating through their pets is a skill. The loss of this ability would not only be a huge hit to viability of Hunter, but also to the display of skill and fun behind the class. This a mechanic that can be very rewarding, but is not very easy to pull off without risk.

Let's work towards getting Cataclysm Classic as close to Blizzlike as possible for all classes, so that we may enjoy the original design features and nostalgia that comes with it.

Thanks for reading, I know it's a long one

[Homerjayx]

Not much can honestly be added to this on the quantitative side of things. There are precedents for either case. Cases where blizzlike behaviour got changed. Cases where it was left in place to "preserve" the original feeling. Either way for the "good" or the "bad". Yet who may truly objectively define what good or bad is? The weighing of the arguments that were brought forward in this debate is highly subjective and biased.

At the danger of opening the debate to a wider array of subtopics, I personally favour somewhat of a middle ground, something that feels "right" within the grand & modern context of the game. Basically, all examples listed by @gekkuxz have that flavour to them.

Ele roots were the only CC in the game that fell into the regular CC categories yet had no DR. Warriors being able to wield a two-hander while having the effect of Shieldwall active defies the inner logic of the game. Same goes for paladins being able to keep people from drinking across the arena at 80y distance through pillars using their AOE taunt. Not to mention the heartbeat mechanic or warriors having differing internal timers for their Taste of Blood proc. More courageous actions were taken when improving Shadowmeld or allowing the RPG elements of the game to shine in the sense of allowing players to alter their gear specifically to negate extra chances to miss (similar to using Spell Penetration to mitigate resistance chance).

All of these changes were in good spirit for the health of the game. They either fixed inner inconsistencies or blatantly game breaking circumstances, partially simply added joy to play the game by for example redesigning Shadowmeld for WOTLK Classic.

My proposal would be as follows: Disallow having the same pet twice (or more) in your stable as a hunter. This way, one out of the two criticised abilities (Bad Manner) would basically be out of the picture as hunters would still be able to cycle their pets for ROS, yet can’t just spam a four second duration, undispellable, ranged CC at people in the arena (basically an additional Scatter Shot without GCD and a separate DR). It would alleviate some of the frustration caused by this mechanic while still staying true to this fundamental part of hunter PvP in the Cataclysm expansion.

It would furthermore negate the inner inconsistency of having multiple pets that are 100% alike. It would also make the pet cycling strategy easier and less frustrating to deal with while retaining the original mechanic. Last but not least, it would introduce additional, joy bringing complexity into the game by allowing hunters to be creative with their additional pet choices outside of the monkey pet. In Cataclysm hunters still have the option to choose from a wide spectrum of pets with different effects. Yes, the monkey pet is overall by far the best, yet there are still many options available to bring additional depth to the game instead of just spamming the same ability over and over again (Bad Manner). There are real stuns (ravager & bat), kicks (gorilla & nether ray), disarms (bird of prey & scorpid), slows (crocolisk & warp stalker) and roots (crab & spider) available for hunters to choose from. None of these abilities come close to the effect of Bad Manner, thus it would be a significant yet not overwhelming effect. I personally like the idea of incorporating tactical elements of different pets depending on the situation in an arena match. Cycling them purely for ROS is by no means as broken as the AOE taunt by paladins or certain race/gender combinations being able to wall jump within the Dalaran arena in WOTLK Classic, it thus shouldn’t just be taken out of the game completely. Obviously, what is "game breaking" varies in the eye of the spectator as mentioned in the introduction of this post.

As @snipin wrote, Bad Manner is great to land CC as the target actually stands still during the trapping process, making it much more reliable than Scatter Shot. With Bad Manner only available once a minute you can still do that, but outside of it you will have to utilise other pet abilities to land traps like combining roots + silence from your Silencing Shot or off a shorter stun of a Bat or Ravager. Now, I am obviously aware that these alternatives only work well in theory, as long as https://github.com/JamminL/cata-classic-bugs/issues/1041 hasn’t been fixed these alternative ways won’t make much sense as people will often be able to react to the trap triggering if the timer is too delayed as either of these options have a smaller window for the trap to land (stuns two seconds, root + silence three seconds).

[Whiteshadovvropemaxxing]

Not much can honestly be added to this on the quantitative side of things. There are precedents for either case. Cases where blizzlike behaviour got changed. Cases where it was left in place to "preserve" the original feeling. Either way for the "good" or the "bad". Yet who may truly objectively define what good or bad is? The weighing of the arguments that were brought forward in this debate is highly subjective and biased.

At the danger of opening the debate to a wider array of subtopics, I personally favour somewhat of a middle ground, something that feels "right" within the grand & modern context of the game. Basically, all examples listed by @gekkuxz have that flavour to them.

Ele roots were the only CC in the game that fell into the regular CC categories yet had no DR. Warriors being able to wield a two-hander while having the effect of Shieldwall active defies the inner logic of the game. Same goes for paladins being able to keep people from drinking across the arena at 80y distance through pillars using their AOE taunt. Not to mention the heartbeat mechanic or warriors having differing internal timers for their Taste of Blood proc. More courageous actions were taken when improving Shadowmeld or allowing the RPG elements of the game to shine in the sense of allowing players to alter their gear specifically to negate extra chances to miss (similar to using Spell Penetration to mitigate resistance chance).

All of these changes were in good spirit for the health of the game. They either fixed inner inconsistencies or blatantly game breaking circumstances, partially simply added joy to play the game by for example redesigning Shadowmeld for WOTLK Classic.

My proposal would be as follows: Disallow having the same pet twice (or more) in your stable as a hunter. This way, one out of the two criticised abilities (Bad Manner) would basically be out of the picture as hunters would still be able to cycle their pets for ROS, yet can’t just spam a four second duration, undispellable, ranged CC at people in the arena (basically an additional Scatter Shot without GCD and a separate DR). It would alleviate some of the frustration caused by this mechanic while still staying true to this fundamental part of hunter PvP in the Cataclysm expansion.

It would furthermore negate the inner inconsistency of having multiple pets that are 100% alike. It would also make the pet cycling strategy easier and less frustrating to deal with while retaining the original mechanic. Last but not least, it would introduce additional, joy bringing complexity into the game by allowing hunters to be creative with their additional pet choices outside of the monkey pet. In Cataclysm hunters still have the option to choose from a wide spectrum of pets with different effects. Yes, the monkey pet is overall by far the best, yet there are still many options available to bring additional depth to the game instead of just spamming the same ability over and over again (Bad Manner). There are real stuns (ravager & bat), kicks (gorilla & nether ray), disarms (bird of prey & scorpid), slows (crocolisk & warp stalker) and roots (crab & spider) available for hunters to choose from. None of these abilities come close to the effect of Bad Manner, thus it would be a significant yet not overwhelming effect. I personally like the idea of incorporating tactical elements of different pets depending on the situation in an arena match. Cycling them purely for ROS is by no means as broken as the AOE taunt by paladins or certain race/gender combinations being able to wall jump within the Dalaran arena in WOTLK Classic, it thus shouldn’t just be taken out of the game completely. Obviously, what is "game breaking" varies in the eye of the spectator as mentioned in the introduction of this post.

As @Snipin wrote, Bad Manner is great to land CC as the target actually stands still during the trapping process, making it much more reliable than Scatter Shot. With Bad Manner only available once a minute you can still do that, but outside of it you will have to utilise other pet abilities to land traps like combining roots + silence from your Silencing Shot or off a shorter stun of a Bat or Ravager. Now, I am obviously aware that these alternatives only work well in theory, as long as #1041 hasn’t been fixed these alternative ways won’t make much sense as people will often be able to react to the trap triggering if the timer is too delayed as either of these options have a smaller window for the trap to land (stuns two seconds, root + silence three seconds).

This is not a solution cause hunter even with 5 pets with the current status on beta will still have struggles and which we don't know if it will get fixed, hunter is facing problems on beta such as pet breaking its own cc, pet not listening to most commands, disengage is most of the time sideways and not to the direction you want it to go, trap takes 3-4 sec to proc when its being used etc etc. So with the current status of the beta even with 5 pets and ros/bad manner being available to be rotated hunter will still face massive issues

[Rio2345]

Hunter pets resetting cooldowns is a fundamental aspect of the class's gameplay identity. It adds depth and complexity to the hunter class, requiring skillful management of pet abilities to maximize effectiveness in both PvE and PvP scenarios. Removing this mechanic would not only homogenize gameplay but also diminish the unique flavor that hunters bring to the arena.

Secondly, implementing such a change could have unintended consequences for class balance. Hunters rely on their pets for damage, crowd control, and utility in PvP encounters. By nerfing pet mechanics specifically for arenas, you risk disproportionately impacting the viability of hunters in PvP compared to other classes. This could lead to a situation where hunters become less desirable or even unplayable in high-level arena play, which would be unfair to dedicated hunter players.

Furthermore, altering pet mechanics solely for arenas could set a problematic precedent. It might encourage a piecemeal approach to class balance, where certain abilities or mechanics are restricted in specific PvP environments, leading to confusion and inconsistency for players.

I believe that outright removing this mechanic would be a shortsighted solution that could have negative repercussions for both class identity and balance in PvP. It's essential to approach class balance with nuance and consideration for the wider implications of proposed changes.

[Iceblockxx]

While I understand the concern about hunter pets resetting cooldowns in arena, particularly in the context of Cataclysm, it's important to consider the broader implications of implementing such a change. While it may seem like a solution to balance issues, it could inadvertently tilt the balance even further in favor of certain compositions, such as RMP (Rogue, Mage, Priest) and RLS (Rogue, Warlock, Shaman).

Hunter pets play a crucial role in the arena ecosystem, not just as damage dealers but also as sources of utility and control. Removing their ability to reset cooldowns would disproportionately affect hunters and the compositions they are part of.

Compositions like RMP and RLS heavily rely on control and burst damage to secure kills. The presence of hunter pets adds an additional layer of complexity for these comps to manage, forcing them to adapt their strategies and resource management accordingly. Without the threat of pet resets, these compositions would gain a significant advantage, making them even more dominant in the arena meta.

Furthermore, hunters themselves would suffer a substantial blow to their viability in arena. Removing a core aspect of their toolkit would not only diminish their effectiveness but also reduce the diversity of viable compositions in high-level arena play.

Maintaining balance in arena requires a delicate touch, and while addressing specific concerns is important, it's crucial to consider the broader implications for class balance and composition diversity. Instead of outright removing mechanics like pet cooldown resets, perhaps a more nuanced approach, such as adjusting cooldown durations or diminishing returns, could be explored to achieve a better balance without sacrificing the unique strengths that hunters bring to arena gameplay.

[dedestus]

so if it is so important from a hunter pov apparently, what about limiting the amount of re-summons possible to 2 or 3 per game instead of unlimited?

[Whiteshadovvropemaxxing]

so if it is so important from a hunter pov apparently, what about limiting the amount of re-summons possible to 2 or 3 per game instead of unlimited?

First of all most hunters play with 4 monkeys therefore is not unlimited, and second the cast isn't given to you for free when you play vs feral,rogue,fire mage you cant spam dismiss and get it for free most of the time you get stopped and you average 1 sac per 30 sec or sometimes even more due to the amount of stops those classes have

[SimonBpvp]

No, for me the most important thing is to not make any changes would buff or nerf specific classes. If you make a change it should benefit everyone equally. The other one thing I want to say is that people are never satisfied with just one change. If you change one thing then it really opens the floodgates so be aware of that I guess.

[Exizt01]

Would like to add it's been a similar case with :

-Warrior shield wall up with a 2Hander (blizzlike) : got changed #392 #570 This was a hot topic for a while during Wotlk and ended up being changed

-Shadowmeld we currently have is not blizzlike but was changed for the better : got changed #476

These changes aren't even remotely close to being as broken as the unintended dismiss mechanic hunters used to have back in original cata but blizzard still changed them, why? Because it makes it a healthier environment for everyone. It's not a personal vendetta into hunters in general it's for the greater good so that majority of people get to enjoy the game in a fair state.

• Thank you for pointing out that the only racial that mattered to hunters where it was an entire defensive on its own for us didnt work for an entire season with shadowmeld. Shadowmeld was put in from the original classic and tbc version which was a completely different spell then what was changed and INTENDED in wrath when patch 3.0 came out, the way it was changed to in s6 was exactly how it was supposed to be from the start of S5. Every class who used this racial outside of hunter like priests used it to avoid blanket nova sheeps, polys, etc and very little for actual outplay. Hunters NEEDED meld to meld bolts, coils, lava bursts etc because we lacked any defensives. So yet another season where hunter was completely fucked, this doesnt include how freedom was bugged, trap arming was bugged and they never fixed and even said they WONT fix and much more.

• And to even say that for 2 straight seasons a war could put a 2h on and wall and take zero damage and kill your healer without ANY outplay and saying "oh its not as bad as ros resummons". There has been constant evidence under this github that in 3s you get 100-0d as a hunter through ros because we lack any sort of defensive outside of ros. Not to mention pet resummons and pet abilities are kickable and the pet is ccable, there IS outplay to stopping hunter pet ressumons.

• There was ZERO outplay to what warriors could do from s5 to s6, which was almost a year of getting away with that. Not to mention being able to bop a disarm on a war bladestorming and cancelling bop fast enough would keep your bladestorm and not cancel it. That alone would 100-0 your teammate. but yes standing still and getting a new pet out is completely game breaking.

[0msa]

This discussion would be more valuable if both sides seriously engaged with the other’s arguments (and if the useless chatGPT generated spam stopped). To that end, let me address many of the common arguments made by those in favor of preserving pet functionality from original Cataclysm (unique pets 1-5, separate cds, etc.)

1. This behavior existed in original Cataclysm, and for this reason alone it should be preserved in Classic Cataclysm. EDP445SupporterAlsoTrump2024 , Kenniflopper , Pozzel , jimmyiwnl , r1wrathandy , Snipin , Whiteshadovvropemaxxing

Let’s split this into two parts -

a) This behavior existed in original Catacylsm Thank you to the many who have provided ample documentation of this. Nobody is disputing this point.

b) thus should be preserved in Classic Cataclysm. This is where the logic fails. If this was the initial release of Classic in 2019, and Blizzard had committed to a #NoChanges policy, this might be a compelling argument. However, Blizzard has adopted a #SomeChanges policy, and has made it clear in their statements and actions that changes will be made in cases where it improves the health of the game, even when it deviates from original functionality.

Though not an exhaustive list of the criteria Blizzard uses to guide their decision making on these types of changes, they consider 1) the original design behavior, 2) the original design intention, 3) the intuitiveness of the functionality 4) the relative power of the mechanic, 5) player and class fantasies (source). It is clear that original Cataclysm hunter pet functionality fails each of these tests to be preserved. These points will be addressed in the subsequent sections.

2. This behavior was intended, and not a bug. Kenniflopper , Exizt01 , ManneN1 , Snipin

The second most common argument in favor of preserving original pet functionality is that it is intended behavior and not a bug. This is false. There is an overwhelming amount of evidence that suggests this behavior is a not intended. Arguing that it is not a bug cannot be done in good faith in the light of the evidence.

Blizzard’s own statement is that this behavior is a bug. To repeat this quote,

Dismiss Pet was frequently being used to bypass cooldowns on certain pet abilities, such as Roar of Sacrifice, or to swap out a dangerously wounded pet for one at full health. Neither of those were intended behavior. source

Many hunters acknowledge this post, but dismiss (no pun intended) that the logic applies to Cataclysm without providing any reason for the intended behavior to differ across expansions. Some argue that the context of hunter’s power is different in Cata vs MoP, but this is irrelevant to whether or not this pet functionality was intended.

Blizzard’s post is clear. The intended functionality of pets is not dependent on the toolkit of hunter relative to other classes. Rather, the post simply explains how the mechanic was behaving and that it was unintended. In fixing this functionality, their goal was not to nerf hunters, but rather remove an unintended mechanic:

Our goal was to remove the awkward gameplay of dismissing/swapping pets to bypass cooldowns and debuffs, not to make it harder for Hunters to have a pet active. source

Let me be clear - the assessment of the bugged functionality was done independent of the strength of hunters at the time. The same logic should be applied in this case as well.

We are fortunate to not have to make assumptions about the design intention of blizzard regarding this pet issue. Instead, we can look at their statements to see that this functionality is a bug. There are other reasons why this behavior can obviously be considered a bug, including that it does not match the behavior of similar units such as Warlock and Mage pets and it is unintuitive. Blizzard has also implemented similar fixes for hunters calling multiple pets and bypassing traditional ability functionality 157.

But, the most important evidence is Blizzard’s own statements, which are clear.

3. This mechanic existed for the entirety of, and was widely used in, original Cataclysm. If it was not intended, it would have been removed. Kenniflopper , Pozzel , jimmyiwnl , r1wrathandy , Snipin

This is another argument commonly made in favor of preserving pet functionality that is based on factually incorrect information and faulty logic.

First, the length of bugged behavior existing provides very little evidence of functionality being intended. The list of mechanics that have been changed in Classic TBC and Wotlk despite proof of the original functionality existing unchanged for a significant period of time is exhaustive. Take a look through this list and you will find many abilities that fall into this category. For those relevant to PVP, Gekku’s comment covers many.

There are many reasons why bugged behavior might have remained unchanged for a long period of time. An obvious one is technical limitations, which Blizzard has stated affected this issue of hunter pet cooldowns not sharing across pets source.

Other reasons for bugged behavior existing for a long period of time include a bug not being discovered or not being widely used. Many have argued that this dismiss pet functionality was widely known about and used in original Cataclysm. Thank you to those who have linked the videos showing hunters exploiting this bugged functionality in original Cataclysm, but these do not provide sufficient evidence that this was widely used.

The often linked Blizzcon video is misleading, as it only features “63 seconds saved on his RoS cd over 30 minutes of game time” source. Blizzcon is certainly a highly visible platform, but the use is meaningfully different from how it would be today, with players abusing this mechanic to use RoS and Bad Manner multiple times per minute, rather than occasionally over the course of an Arena.

It’s also important to point out how this bugged functionality is likely be used in Classic Cataclysm. Players are far more knowledgeable, likely to use any abusable mechanic, and more prone to rerolling to “fotm” specs or classes. Preserving original pet functionality would be far more disruptive to the health of PVP, with players across all ratings abusing this mechanic and dismiss/resummon in game occurring significantly more frequently. Some top players using this mechanic occasionally does not mean that it was widespread and that the consequences of preserving this functionality would be the same in Classic Cataclysm.

4. Original pet functionality leads to more skilled gameplay and skill expression. EDP445SupporterAlsoTrump2024 , Exizt01 , Pozzel , Nazpvp , Cataenjoyer, Snipin , Rio2345 , Iceblockxx

Encouraging skilled gameplay and skill expression in Classic Cataclysm PVP should be an important goal of all applications of the #SomeChanges philosophy. Many have argued that original pet functionality leads to more skill expression in arena. This might sound true at first glance, but upon further examination actually has the opposite effect - reducing skill expression.

Knowledge of game mechanics is a critical aspect of skill expression in Arena. In this case, understanding that dismiss pet / call pet 1-5 can be used to reset the cooldown of critical abilities (RoS, Bad Manner, etc.) is a skill differentiating hunter players. Particularly in the context of original Cataclysm, this was likely a defining skill gap between the very best hunter players and the rest.

However, in the modern context of Classic Cataclysm, this knowledge based skill gap will likely not exist at all. Unless a player is truly new to the game, every player participating in arena will understand this mechanic exists. In a modern context, the understanding of game mechanics is far less important in differentiating more skilled players from less skilled ones. Instead, the differentiating factor becomes judgment and decision making.

This is precisely where original pet functionality actually reduces skill expression. If the original pet functionality is preserved, it becomes far less important to decide when to use abilities like RoS or Bad Manner. Judging when to use these cooldowns, particularly coordinating with your team on other CC or defensive abilities, is essentially removed, as you have up to four additional uses of each ability every minute to fall back on. With more modern pet functionality, these abilities become true cooldowns, increasing skill expression as the better players will more effectively judge when to use these limited abilities. For additional examples, look at the changed functionality of abilities such as Elemental Shaman Earthbind Totem and Warrior 2H Wall. In both cases, the original functionality of the spells carried no downside (no DR, no loss of offensive capability). There was essentially no judgment required to use the spells, as there was no downside. Original pet functionality falls into a similar category - will additional pet CDs to fall back on, there is no downside to spamming these abilities.

5. Changing hunter pet functionality will cause a chain reaction of other (negative) changes to the game.

Kenniflopper , Cataenjoyer , Rio2345, Iceblockxx , SimonBpvp

This is a flagrant example of the Slippery Slope Fallacy and should not be taken seriously. The argument here is simple: implementing a change to original pet behavior would “open the floodgates” to a host of other undesirable changes, negatively impacting the game. This is simply false.

Blizzard has adopted a #SomeChanges philosophy and moved past a #NoChanges mandate. They have made numerous changes to many mechanics over the course of Classic TBC and Wotlk to improve the game. Presenting this issue as the critical point of setting a precedent for future changes ignores the extensive history of changes already made. Rather, it is clear that each of these changes have been carefully examined on evidence and merits of that change individually (see closed issues), a fact that those arguing for the existence of a slippery slope have ignored.

6. There is a vendetta against hunters, and that arguing for the removal of original pet functionality is a malicious desire to nerf the class.

EDP445SupporterAlsoTrump2024 , r1wrathandy , ManneN1

Removing original pet functionality will reduce the effectiveness (i.e. “nerfs”) hunters in arena. Nobody is disputing this, but this also misses the point of fixing bugged mechanics and improving the health of the game. It is extremely clear that original pet functionality is a bug and this bug leads to unhealthy gameplay. For these reasons alone, it should be removed.

However, myself and others are not suggesting this pet functionality be changed without other compensating mechanic buffs/changes. In cases where blizzard has modified original functionality, they have also sought to rebalance other abilities to achieve a power balance, for example they added Glyph of Omen of Clarity (source) to feral druids to remove the unintended gameplay of Bearweaving, and when bugged pet functionality was fixed on MoP, they reduced the cast time of Revive Pet to 2 seconds (source).

Skinnay-dev has outlined existing problems with hunter mechanics, which includes:

trap arming time (#451) master's call fizzling (#488), feigning penance (#483) and various other bugs

other existing mechanics include Deflect/Deterrence functionality (#1057).

At a minimum, these should be fixed. Other changes could also be considered, such as slight cooldown reductions on crucial pet abilities such as RoS and Bad Manners, to mitigate the power reduction of hunters without preserving a bugged mechanic that promotes an unhealthy game.

[SimonBpvp]

-Hit Rating overcap allowing you to not miss into talents/racials : got changed #143

complete side note here but I'm clueless about this and how, if at all, it will affect the night elf passive? anyone knows?

sorry for off topic comment, just delete my comment if necessary

[Iceblockxx]

It's no coincidence that players like Chanimal, Avizura, and Gekku are the ones advocating for this change. They stand to benefit the most from it, as their comps heavily rely on controlling the pace of the match and shutting down enemy cooldowns. By lobbying for this nerf, they're essentially attempting to tilt the balance of power further in their favor.

It is interesting that these players are so invested in getting hunter pets nerfed, yet have never played cataclysm, or haven't played cataclysm in 10+ years.

Nerfing pets before a single arena match has yet to be played would be completely uncalled for and would absolutely make hunters irrelevant within the meta of cata arena.

It is also important to remember yes hunters are S tier season 9, but they begin to fall off after that season while Rogues, Locks, Mages all get stronger. Nerfing hunter would create an absolute shift in the meta for season 10 and season 11 making RLS and RMP even more unstoppable, which could ultimately lead to the downfall of arena participation in cataclysm.

[skinnay-dev]

Be skeptical of anyone who claims to care so deeply about the health of the game and fixing bugs/unintended mechanics but this particular topic is the only thing they've bothered to contribute to on this github

[Whiteshadovvropemaxxing]

Be skeptical of anyone who claims to care so deeply about the health of the game and fixing bugs/unintended mechanics but this particular topic is the only thing they've bothered to contribute to on this github

Yeah pretty much this summarizes it there's so many broken things such as earth shield/lock armor synergizing being so broken, mage no CD/ICD on blazing speed etc etc but this thread isn't about it and I'm not here to argue about expansion features cause at the end of the day its features that happened to be in cataclysm, so the people making this thread and complaining against dismiss pet are probably playing one of the specs I mentioned above and the intent of this thread is to make their specs god tier, if they cared even 1% about the balance or health of PvP they'd have created much more threads about overpowered things in PvP.

[Snipin]

@0msa I can see that you spent some time on your post 0msa, which is why I regret to say I believe your arguements lack potency.

1:

Your claim is that since there have been #somechanges, that this should mean Dismiss Pet is in the firing line. However, every change that has been done so far is very minor in comparison to the idea of gutting Dismiss Pet. As I wrote in my other post, you can't compare fixing Shadowmeld, or removing 2h wall (clearly a bug if you even just read the tooltip) to straight up removing a core mechanic of the class.

As for the criteria you listed, I believe it falls under all five: Original design: Hunter's are Dismissing Pets and summoning a different one. Nothing about that goes against how the spell should function.

Design intention: Again, the intention was for the Hunter to be able to have 5 different pets at their disposal. That's what is happening.

Intuitiveness: When you see a hunter cast Dismiss Pet, you can make the assumption that they are going to pull out another one. Failing to see whats unintuitive about that, seems pretty straight forward.

Power: The power of the mechanic is entirely up to the player and his opponents. If the Hunter is able to get 100% value out of rotating pets while also accomplishing the CC and damage rotation, they either outplayed their opponents, or their opponents did not respond correctly. Either way, that's how PVP works. If you're not denying value from your enemies, you are going to lose the game.

Class Fantasy: Hunters are beast masters. The whole premise of Hunter is that they have pets. This spell is directly related to pets.

To me, it seems this spell has passed all five criteria with ease.

2:

The idea that a blue post from a seperate expansion can be used to dictate changes to a prior one is absurd.

If that were the case, we could look at every spell that was redesigned in MoP and implement them in Cata, since clearly that is how they decided the spell should work, right?

Also, I don't believe it's accurate to state that their decision to change a mechanic has nothing to do with the current state or design of a class.

Regardless of whether or not they took into account the design or strength of Hunter in MoP when making this change, Hunter in MoP could live without Dismiss Pet. Hunter in Cataclysm would suffer more from the loss.

Reiterating what I already stated in my previous post, Hunters had more tools at their disposal to trap from, and more damage in their kit aswell. On top of them having the option to choose from Wyvern Sting or Binding shot as spells they can trap off of, they also had explosive trap knock, which in itself is one of the most powerful CCs to have.

There was also an abundance of stuns added to the game, or stuns with much shorter CDs for their typical comps. On top of that, their healers got more CC aswell.

Examples of extra CC available for their comps: Jungle: Bash usable in cat form, Treeant stun, NS clone, Symbiosis Cyclone (priest) PHD: Asphyxiate, Double Grip, Paladin Short Hoj, Paladin Blind, Paladin Fear PHP: Short Hoj, Pala Blind

These extra CCs available alleviate some of the pressure on the Hunter to be the main CC on the team. The need to Dismiss Pet for another Bad Manner like they do in Cataclysm is gone. On top of that, they also did more consistent damage.

Anyway, the whole point is the game was entirely different at that point. Applying the same change to a class that is completely different would end up with a very different result.

3:

You are, again, referencing the list of things that were changed under #somechanges. However, as I stated in #1, none of these changes are even remotely close to the idea of removing Dismiss Pet.

Also, there is nothing about the way it works that is a bug. If you were able to dismiss and resummon the same pet, and have fresh CDs, then yes that would be a bug. However, that is not what is happening. Hunters are simply rotating through all of their pets, with different CDs.

Also, the claim that this was not widely used is false. There have been many examples of it's use, but if you want to see how frequently Gladiator level Hunters used this in Cataclysm, you can look at any of the videos on this guys channel: https://www.youtube.com/@Vannslol

I will point out a few for you just to get you started: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHiTnukF1Is 1:30 2:20

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sK3OaI-Ou80& abandon :55 abandon 1:47 dismiss 2:12 2:47 3:33 5:19 6:10 abandon 6:50

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AYdGGMBrcc 1:00 1:43 3:04 4:02

Short of watching all of his videos and timestamping his dismisses for you, you can clearly see he was using it. Now, is it as frequent as today? No. However, if you were to copy paste his gameplay into todays meta, it would not work. He was very good for the time, but he would have to play much faster and more efficient against the same comps with similar caliber of players of todays standards.

You can see a lot of his traps were not even aimed dead center of the healer, and easily eaten. The meta and mindset was completely different back then.

As for the idea that people will be FOTM rerolling to Hunter: Hunter is not a suitable class for FOTM rerolling, since it requires a good amount of experience and mechanical memory in order to pull it off properly. I'm not saying you need to be a mastermind to play it, I'm just saying it doesn't really fit the roll of a FOTM re roll class. Typically they are classes that don't have a lot of obscure mechanics like trapping or setup, and just allow you to pump damage and win.

4:

The skill expression regarding Dismiss Pet has absolutely zero to do with the knowledge surrounding whether or not it is possible.

The skill expression is based off of the individual Hunter's ability to balance getting off good damage, CC, and keeping their team and themselves alive with the use of well timed Roar of Sacrifices and Dismiss Pets.

Contrary to what you claim, the ability to use more than one Roar of Sacrifice increases the skill ceiling of the class, because it requires Hunter's to balance an extra mechanic, which if done properly decides whether their team lives or dies.

5:

There is nothing false about the claim that changing or nerfing one class impacts the entire game or "ecosystem". This is just common knowledge, and it exists in everything whether it is WoW or not.

You continually reference the #somechanges, however as I have pointed out multiple times, none of the changes done have been anything remotely close to what is being proposed.

6:

If you guys truly want to improve the health of the game, you should stop attempting to make arguements to have an important and interesting mechanic removed from the game.

Learn how it works, learn Hunter's weaknesses, and improve as a community rather than attempt to sabotage a class simply because you don't like how it works.

My opinion I believe a huge majority of the animosity towards Dismiss Pet comes from it being a mechanic that players are unfamiliar with. Hunter in Cataclysm is very unique, and Dismiss Pet is a very unique ability, so it makes sense that people would not be prepared for anything like it.

A lot of the opposition regarding this mechanic, I believe, has snowballed out of proportion and created a storm of "Everyone else vs. Hunters".

I am confident that once people play against it and begin to learn fight Hunters, a lot of that puzzle will be solved, and people will begin to exploit weaknesses with Hunters just as they do every other class.

If anybody would like to discuss it further, I am gladly open to do so on Discord. Discord: Snipin

[skinnay-dev]

Yeah pretty much this summarizes it there's so many broken things such as earth shield/lock armor synergizing being so broken, mage no CD/ICD on blazing speed etc etc but this thread isn't about it and I'm not here to argue about expansion features cause at the end of the day its features that happened to be in cataclysm, so the people making this thread and complaining against dismiss pet are probably playing one of the specs I mentioned above and the intent of this thread is to make their specs god tier, if they cared even 1% about the balance or health of PvP they'd have created much more threads about overpowered things in PvP.

Talking more about bug reports and testing. The game is barely functional right now, this shouldn't be where most of the attention is focused atm

[gekkuxz]

Be skeptical of anyone who claims to care so deeply about the health of the game and fixing bugs/unintended mechanics but this particular topic is the only thing they've bothered to contribute to on this github

that's funny

[Exizt01]

Theres gonna be one hunter for every 100 rogues and ferals. And hunters literally support those classes and do 1/20th of that damage single target, while having literally no defensives unlike those 2 classes who are near unkillable with defensives up. A very bias group of people arguing to remove something that is insanely crucial to survive.

[tmpnm099]

It's a shame this topic is plagued with burner accounts repeating the same comments with different phrasing, arguing in bad faith. Along with futile "downvoting" and "upvoting" as if it has any effect.

[priestenjoyerx]

It's a shame this topic is plagued with burner accounts repeating the same comments with different phrasing, arguing in bad faith. Along with futile "downvoting" and "upvoting" as if it has any effect.

Actually its the other way around, this whole idea of custom nerfing hunters is nothing but propaganda which is pushed by watched streamers (Avizura mostly). Avizura has played cata private servers together with gekku and they both have experienced hunters in cataclysm. No, hunters aren't as op as they portray them to be, since they have won handful of hunters, including best hunters both in 2s and 3s without a problem.

Word of advice? Don't trust EVERYTHING you hear from your beloved streamer, 99% of the time he doesn't have his best interest for the game in his mind. He's mostly looking out for himself and his gain in the long run.

If hunters were custom nerfed this would allow them to Boost, Coach, Pilot players easier for money and these people are notorious for doing that

[dedestus]

It's a shame this topic is plagued with burner accounts repeating the same comments with different phrasing, arguing in bad faith. Along with futile "downvoting" and "upvoting" as if it has any effect.

Actually its the other way around, this whole idea of custom nerfing hunters is nothing but propaganda which is pushed by watched streamers (Avizura mostly). Avizura has played cata private servers together with gekku and they both have experienced hunters in cataclysm. No, hunters aren't as op as they portray them to be, since they have won handful of hunters, including best hunters both in 2s and 3s without a problem.

Word of advice? Don't trust EVERYTHING you hear from your beloved streamer, 99% of the time he doesn't have his best interest for the game in his mind. He's mostly looking out for himself and his gain in the long run.

If hunters were custom nerfed this would allow them to Boost, Coach, Pilot players easier for money and these people are notorious for doing that

lol

[Kenniflopper]

It's a shame this topic is plagued with burner accounts repeating the same comments with different phrasing, arguing in bad faith. Along with futile "downvoting" and "upvoting" as if it has any effect.

Actually its the other way around, this whole idea of custom nerfing hunters is nothing but propaganda which is pushed by watched streamers (Avizura mostly). Avizura has played cata private servers together with gekku and they both have experienced hunters in cataclysm. No, hunters aren't as op as they portray them to be, since they have won handful of hunters, including best hunters both in 2s and 3s without a problem.

Word of advice? Don't trust EVERYTHING you hear from your beloved streamer, 99% of the time he doesn't have his best interest for the game in his mind. He's mostly looking out for himself and his gain in the long run.

If hunters were custom nerfed this would allow them to Boost, Coach, Pilot players easier for money and these people are notorious for doing that

Wiser words have never been spoken :)

[CharWS]

Think y'all have made your points for both sides of the issue clear enough now