[#SomeChanges Suggestion] Hunter Compensation for unshared pet CD change

[Kenniflopper]

With the loss of unshared CDs among Hunter pets, Hunters have suffered a significant loss in power. While this may not have been considered an intended mechanic, it existed the whole duration of Cataclysm, and was utilized with an increasing amount to adapt to the growing meta.

Players have become very proficient in todays day and age, and the meta has evolved quite a bit past where it was when Cataclysm ended in 2012. Hunters losing their ability to rotate through multiple monkey pets for a new Roar of Sacrifice and Bad Manner has severely impacted their ability to keep themselves and their team alive, as well as their ability to CC effectively. This should be considered to be a "nerf", since while it may have been an "unintended mechanic", it was also a core mechanic of the class, and one of the main things that made Hunters powerful and competitive at the top end.

In the article with the devs: https://www.well-played.com.au/prayer-of-mending-is-a-pain-in-the-neck-chatting-about-cataclysm-classic-with-the-wow-devs/ Kris Zierhut, Principal Game Designer - the topic of compensation for removing "bugs" was mentioned.

Following discussion between Hunter players, here are a few suggestions that are mentioned:

We believe the "most agreed upon suggestion" would be the easiest and healthiest change to address the current issue stemming from the removal of unshared CDs among pets.

We have also added some "other suggestions" as well as some "Quality of Life changes".

The QoL changes are, in our opinion, things that should change simply to make the class feel more fluid.

The "other suggestions" are simply there as items we believe could be potentially added.

Most agreed upon suggestion: Flat Cooldown Reduction - Lower cooldowns of pet abilities like Bad Manner and Roar of Sacrifice from 1 minute to 28 seconds to align with Hunter trap cooldown.

Quality of life change suggestions: Remove Hunter mastery proccing on abilities such as concussive shot / tranq shot / silence shot

Change pet growl range to 20 yards and make it not start an autoattack so it can be used on CC'd targets close to it and not break the cc (frequently used to remove spells like grounding totems).

Make pets "aware of CC", preventing them from breaking CC. ( They are sometimes still attacking the target after it has been CCd, even though the attack command was sent before the CC hits the target. )

Other suggestions:

Glyph of Raptor strike: Buff duration increased from 5 seconds to 10 seconds.

Rotating Cooldown with 2 Stacks: Allow Hunter Roar of Sacrifice and Bad manner and other pet abilities to have 2 stacks, using a rotating cooldown once an ability is used.

Make Master’s Call not dispellable/stealable

[dedestus]

And we go again! Based on what do you assume hunter lost all of its strength because of an intended bug fix? How much strength do you think hunters should have, considering the low amount of data we have, with each hunter having played like 100-200 arena games so far and still the top 20 in 2vs2 and 3vs3 consists of 4 hunters, no other class is represented as often currently today. In PvE hunter is also performing insanely well right now and dominating the DPS charts, if you consider this for now I do not believe they need any custom buffs to give them even more power.

However we should keep an eye on it I guess and see how the season plays out and if there is a shift in the ladder then we should look back at things and see if other classes that are not as represented as hunters are in need of buffs as well.

[Ruddy343]

As someone who has observed the whole matter as an impartial observer, I can't help but comment on the subject now, as it has taken on grotesque proportions.

First of all - and I think everyone will agree with me on this - the whole mechanic around Dismiss Pet is unfun and obnoxious and I don't think hunters (myself included) are the biggest fans of this gameplay either. However, the reality is that this #SomeChanges alteration is a direct and significant nerf to a particular class. A fact that has to be acknowledged and accepted. In this context, it should not matter whether a class is still “strong” or not. The arguments in the corresponding post and once again here seem intellectually dishonest and misleading.

Especially, the argument that you can wait and see “how the situation develops” with potential buffs is particularly hypocritical and cynical. The same thing could have been said about nerfing the mechanic in the first place. We could have also waited a couple months before "fixing" it and see how much it would actually affects the health and integrity of the ladder.

The reference to the use of the mechanic in OG Cata is also irrelevant when considering the current state of a class. In the other thread, countless attempts were made and several videos were posted to hightlight the supposedly rare usage of the mechanic. Once again, this is a dishonest attempt to try and paint the picture of it being a "modern" problem that would only apply to classic cataclysm. Whether this corresponds to the facts and the status quo at the time is unimportant and at best debatable, as we find ourselves over 10 years later in a completly higher general level of play and hyper meta. It may simply not have been necessary to make full use of this mechanic, as the general level of play was generally much lower, while at the same time methods may have been developed in the past 10 years to prevent this mechanic from being utilized fully.

Once again, I am not advocating to bring the Dismiss Pet mechanic back in any way, it is however important and necessary to acknowledge that this "fix" resulted in a significant nerf to a classes overall strenght, which as mentioned above Blizzard wants to "compensate". As already mentioned, in such a a consideration, it should be irrelevant whether a class is still “strong” after a nerf - a nerf is a nerf and the frustration of Hunter Players is understandable. Furthermore, the “compensations” proposed here are in no way capable of restoring the pre-nerf power level of Hunters.

I am also concerned about the precedent this has set. What are we going to do when we see in the coming seasons and tournaments that RMP/RLS and Fire Mage are overwhelmingly strong compared to other comps and classes? Will we then start actively patching Classic?

That being said, I think some of the above-mentioned "compensations" are reasonable and worth consideration. It could also help to eleviate the sour feeling many Hunter Players have, after being the lowest representated class in both TBC and WOTLK classic.

[Kathalx]

As someone who has observed the whole matter as an impartial observer, I can't help but comment on the subject now, as it has taken on grotesque proportions.

First of all - and I think everyone will agree with me on this - the whole mechanic around Dismiss Pet is unfun and obnoxious and I don't think hunters (myself included) are the biggest fans of this gameplay either. However, the reality is that this #SomeChanges alteration is a direct and significant nerf to a particular class. A fact that has to be acknowledged and accepted. In this context, it should not matter whether a class is still “strong” or not. The arguments in the corresponding post and once again here seem intellectually dishonest and misleading.

Especially, the argument that you can wait and see “how the situation develops” with potential buffs is particularly hypocritical and cynical. The same thing could have been said about nerfing the mechanic in the first place. We could have also waited a couple months before "fixing" it and see how much it would actually affects the health and integrity of the ladder.

The reference to the use of the mechanic in OG Cata is also irrelevant when considering the current state of a class. In the other thread, countless attempts were made and several videos were posted to hightlight the supposedly rare usage of the mechanic. Once again, this is a dishonest attempt to try and paint the picture of it being a "modern" problem that would only apply to classic cataclysm. Whether this corresponds to the facts and the status quo at the time is unimportant and at best debatable, as we find ourselves over 10 years later in a completly higher general level of play and hyper meta. It may simply not have been necessary to make full use of this mechanic, as the general level of play was generally much lower, while at the same time methods may have been developed in the past 10 years to prevent this mechanic from being utilized fully.

Once again, I am not advocating to bring the Dismiss Pet mechanic back in any way, it is however important and necessary to acknowledge that this "fix" resulted in a significant nerf to a classes overall strenght, which as mentioned above Blizzard wants to "compensate". As already mentioned, in such a a consideration, it should be irrelevant whether a class is still “strong” after a nerf - a nerf is a nerf and the frustration of Hunter Players is understandable. Furthermore, the “compensations” proposed here are in no way capable of restoring the pre-nerf power level of Hunters.

I am also concerned about the precedent this has set. What are we going to do when we see in the coming seasons and tournaments that RMP/RLS and Fire Mage are overwhelmingly strong compared to other comps and classes? Will we then start actively patching Classic?

That being said, I think some of the above-mentioned "compensations" are reasonable and worth consideration. It could also help to eleviate the sour feeling many Hunter Players have, after being the lowest representated class in both TBC and WOTLK classic.

If hunters’ current power level should not be taken into consideration when discussing compensations, you don’t have a frame of reference for the compensations in the first place. That is unless you say that compensations should be made with the pre-nerf hunter state in mind. We then have a situation of fixing an unintended mechanic which (by own admission) is unfun for everyone, only to try to equalize the power loss elsewhere in a way that is still “fun”. Good luck in that rabbit hole.

With the same reasoning you are saying that in the aftermath of fixing (or rather, not replicating) an unintended mechanic, it should not matter whether the affected class becomes completely unviable in PvP either. I.e. you should equally compensate a class which hypothetically becomes completely unplayable or remains completely god-broken-overpowered. Good luck convincing anyone of that.

It makes perfect sense to look at viability and representation when discussing compensations – in fact I’d say it’s probably the only thing worth looking at. If this fix completely gutted hunters in relation to other classes, you’d have a much stronger case going for you.

The current (of course preliminary) EU 3v3 data on ironforge.pro, consisting of a total of 4983 players, shows hunters as the fourth most represented class in the top 100 in proportion to their population. They come after shamans, rogues and mages, ahead of priests, warlocks, warriors, druids, death knights and paladins.

In the top 50, hunters are the most represented class in proportion to their population.

In terms of playability, they are the seventh most played class, after paladins, shamans, priests, druids, death knights and rogues, ahead of warriors, mages and warlocks.

With this in mind, it's totally fair to wait and evaluate the effects of this fix/nerf before jumping to conclusions.

[dedestus]

Still really confused why these people believe hunter is in need of a compensation or a custom buff, the class is extremely good right now, no matter how you want to put it. There are other specs and classes that need some love, but hunter does not seem to be one of them currently.

[skinnay-dev]

I think it's worth noting that hunters have been the most underrepresented arena class consistently throughout all of TBC/Wrath. Especially given that context, it's ridiculous that people are balking at the idea of them now being in the top 4 or 5 out of 10 in representation (only in the tiny sample size of top x from only a few days of arena, while they are 2nd least played class across the larger population) and referring to this as "extremely good" or "god-broken-overpowered".

I will agree with the suggestion to lower Bad Manner and Roar of Sacrifice CDs for a few reasons: 1) It's most directly related to what the nerf changed about our gameplay 2) It's simple and easy for Blizzard to implement 3) Bad Manner is already on the higher end of pet ability cooldowns. Other PvP pet abilities like Gorilla Pummel, Crab Pin, and Wasp Sting have 30-45 second cooldowns.

In addition to that we should still see fixes to clunky mechanics or other bugs, like being able to abandon in arena or pet AI improvements.

[Kathalx]

I think it's worth noting that hunters have been the most underrepresented arena class consistently throughout all of TBC/Wrath. Especially given that context, it's ridiculous that people are balking at the idea of them now being in the top 4 or 5 out of 10 in representation (only in the tiny sample size of top x from only a few days of arena, while they are 2nd least played class across the larger population) and referring to this as "extremely good" or "god-broken-overpowered".

I will agree with the suggestion to lower Bad Manner and Roar of Sacrifice CDs for a few reasons:

1. It's most directly related to what the nerf changed about our gameplay
2. It's simple and easy for Blizzard to implement
3. Bad Manner is already on the higher end of pet ability cooldowns. Other PvP pet abilities like Gorilla Pummel, Crab Pin, and Wasp Sting have 30-45 second cooldowns.

In addition to that we should still see fixes to clunky mechanics or other bugs, like being able to abandon in arena or pet AI improvements.

I will assume you are at least indirectly responding to my previous comment, given the reference to the very specific wording "god-broken-overpowered" that I used.

First of all, please work on your reading comprehension. I never claimed hunters are or even were god-broken-overpowered - I was merely making a point to Ruddy343 by extending his argument with two hypothetical extremes.

Secondly, hunters are in the top arena representation currently. This is simply a fact. I want to give you the benefit of the doubt that you realize the difference between overall representation and population-adjusted representation. If not, go back to statistics 101. The data is premature (I even said so myself), and will obviously differ from season to season, but so far, the claims regarding hunters being bad or even just average have been substantiated with zero tangible evidence.

Also, while overall representation can be interesting to look at, the figures in your image differ quite substantially from the current ladder data for EU 3v3, so not sure where you got that from.

With that said, I bow out of my very brief hunter discussion involvement, as it’s not based on anything tangible, and it won’t be until we have more mature data to go on. One thing is for certain though - the claim that hunters right now need a 28 sec cooldown Bad Manner and Roar of Sacrifice is taken straight out of thin air, and just cannot be taken seriously.

[Kenniflopper]

I think it's worth noting that hunters have been the most underrepresented arena class consistently throughout all of TBC/Wrath. Especially given that context, it's ridiculous that people are balking at the idea of them now being in the top 4 or 5 out of 10 in representation (only in the tiny sample size of top x from only a few days of arena, while they are 2nd least played class across the larger population) and referring to this as "extremely good" or "god-broken-overpowered". I will agree with the suggestion to lower Bad Manner and Roar of Sacrifice CDs for a few reasons:

1. It's most directly related to what the nerf changed about our gameplay
2. It's simple and easy for Blizzard to implement
3. Bad Manner is already on the higher end of pet ability cooldowns. Other PvP pet abilities like Gorilla Pummel, Crab Pin, and Wasp Sting have 30-45 second cooldowns.

In addition to that we should still see fixes to clunky mechanics or other bugs, like being able to abandon in arena or pet AI improvements.

I will assume you are at least indirectly responding to my previous comment, given the reference to the very specific wording "god-broken-overpowered" that I used.

First of all, please work on your reading comprehension. I never claimed hunters are or even were god-broken-overpowered - I was merely making a point to Ruddy343 by extending his argument with two hypothetical extremes.

Secondly, hunters are in the top arena representation currently. This is simply a fact. I want to give you the benefit of the doubt that you realize the difference between overall representation and population-adjusted representation. If not, go back to statistics 101. The data is premature (I even said so myself), and will obviously differ from season to season, but so far, the claims regarding hunters being bad or even just average have been substantiated with zero tangible evidence.

Also, while overall representation can be interesting to look at, the figures in your image differ quite substantially from the current ladder data for EU 3v3, so not sure where you got that from.

With that said, I bow out of my very brief hunter discussion involvement, as it’s not based on anything tangible, and it won’t be until we have more mature data to go on. One thing is for certain though - the claim that hunters right now need a 28 sec cooldown Bad Manner and Roar of Sacrifice is taken straight out of thin air, and just cannot be taken seriously.

They stated themselves they would compensate if old "bugs" was fixed and it ended up hurting the class in a big way, sort of what has happend currently to Hunters. Season 9 is their absolute best season but you see them all at 62% winrate or below, meanwhile RMP which has season 9 as their absolute worst season running at 80%+ winrate, something doesnt add up right? And its all downhill from here for Hunters.

[Kathalx]

I think it's worth noting that hunters have been the most underrepresented arena class consistently throughout all of TBC/Wrath. Especially given that context, it's ridiculous that people are balking at the idea of them now being in the top 4 or 5 out of 10 in representation (only in the tiny sample size of top x from only a few days of arena, while they are 2nd least played class across the larger population) and referring to this as "extremely good" or "god-broken-overpowered". I will agree with the suggestion to lower Bad Manner and Roar of Sacrifice CDs for a few reasons:

1. It's most directly related to what the nerf changed about our gameplay
2. It's simple and easy for Blizzard to implement
3. Bad Manner is already on the higher end of pet ability cooldowns. Other PvP pet abilities like Gorilla Pummel, Crab Pin, and Wasp Sting have 30-45 second cooldowns.

In addition to that we should still see fixes to clunky mechanics or other bugs, like being able to abandon in arena or pet AI improvements.

I will assume you are at least indirectly responding to my previous comment, given the reference to the very specific wording "god-broken-overpowered" that I used. First of all, please work on your reading comprehension. I never claimed hunters are or even were god-broken-overpowered - I was merely making a point to Ruddy343 by extending his argument with two hypothetical extremes. Secondly, hunters are in the top arena representation currently. This is simply a fact. I want to give you the benefit of the doubt that you realize the difference between overall representation and population-adjusted representation. If not, go back to statistics 101. The data is premature (I even said so myself), and will obviously differ from season to season, but so far, the claims regarding hunters being bad or even just average have been substantiated with zero tangible evidence. Also, while overall representation can be interesting to look at, the figures in your image differ quite substantially from the current ladder data for EU 3v3, so not sure where you got that from. With that said, I bow out of my very brief hunter discussion involvement, as it’s not based on anything tangible, and it won’t be until we have more mature data to go on. One thing is for certain though - the claim that hunters right now need a 28 sec cooldown Bad Manner and Roar of Sacrifice is taken straight out of thin air, and just cannot be taken seriously.

They stated themselves they would compensate if old "bugs" was fixed and it ended up hurting the class in a big way, sort of what has happend currently to Hunters. Season 9 is their absolute best season but you see them all at 62% winrate or below, meanwhile RMP which has season 9 as their absolute worst season running at 80%+ winrate, something doesnt add up right? And its all downhill from here for Hunters.

The fact that you see no issue with presenting your "stats" this way tells me all I need to know - this is a futile discussion to be had with you. But hey, thanks for making it easy at least.

[SimonBpvp]

In addition to that we should still see fixes to clunky mechanics or other bugs, like being able to abandon in arena or pet AI improvements.

Yes, if they have already started changing stuff then abandon pet should go away, don't rly care how they do it.