[BUG] Chance-to-miss talents can't be countered by hit rating

[Icedeadd]

1. Current Behavior

1.1. Description

Dispel magic(rank 2) doesn't have more chance to dispel buffs(increased with talents by 30 % chance for dispel resist - Arcane subtlety, Silent resolve, Stoicism) with more hit rating.

1.2. How to Reproduce

       1. Equip more hit rating gear.
       2. Use dispel magic(rank 2) on Mage, priest, paladin (Arcane subtlety, Silent resolve, Stoicism)
       3. Use Weak auras for dispel resist.
       4. Do it for minimum 100 times.

1.3 Source Material

2. Expected Behavior

2.1. Description

With more hit rating (4% +) it should decrease talents for dispel resist.

2.2 Source Material

[Evolvee]

When it comes to Dispel Magic(Rank 2), specifically, theres also some kind of weird "bug" that makes it only dispel 1 buff - maybe the chance to dispel is rolled separately - it should only dispel 0 or 2 buffs with the chance to dispel being rolled only once, not twice for each 1 cast, afaik.

[Icedeadd]

When it comes to Dispel Magic(Rank 2), specifically, there's also some kind of weird "bug" that makes it only dispel 1 buff - maybe the chance to dispel is rolled separately - it should only dispel 0 or 2 buffs with the chance to dispel being rolled only once, not twice for each 1 cast, afaik.

Yeah, i m pretty sure that i watched all time to dispel only if 2 buffs are on person. (maybe missclick 2-3 times at worst). so there should be 200 dispels and i'm missing 22 of them( they didn't count them in "wa",only 2 dispel resists). but yeah, i saw it happens a lot.

[JamminL]

When it comes to Dispel Magic(Rank 2), specifically, theres also some kind of weird "bug" that makes it only dispel 1 buff - maybe the chance to dispel is rolled separately - it should only dispel 0 or 2 buffs with the chance to dispel being rolled only once, not twice for each 1 cast, afaik.

Dispel mechanic on priests seems to be working fine (as they were back then). If you have 2 buffs;

• Rolls twice, 1 for each If you only have 1 buff:
• It only rolls once If you have only 1 buff and it has stacks: Rolls once for 2 stacks (either removes 2 stacks or none) If you have 2 buffs and 1 with stacks: Rolls twice (could be 1 buff 1 stack, 2 stacks, 1 stack, 1 buff, 0)

Which is the behavior we researched back. Do you have any evidence this isn't true?

[Evolvee]

Nope, dont have any evidence, the description above matches this https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Dispel?oldid=1644346 https://github.com/Schaka/TBC-research/issues/26

[Icedeadd]

When it comes to Dispel Magic(Rank 2), specifically, theres also some kind of weird "bug" that makes it only dispel 1 buff - maybe the chance to dispel is rolled separately - it should only dispel 0 or 2 buffs with the chance to dispel being rolled only once, not twice for each 1 cast, afaik.

Dispel mechanic on priests seems to be working fine (as they were back then). If you have 2 buffs;

• Rolls twice, 1 for each If you only have 1 buff:
• It only rolls once If you have only 1 buff and it has stacks: Rolls once for 2 stacks (either removes 2 stacks or none) If you have 2 buffs and 1 with stacks: Rolls twice (could be 1 buff 1 stack, 2 stacks, 1 stack, 1 buff, 0)

Which is the behavior we researched back. Do you have any evidence this isn't true?

Well i didn't even realised "this problem" before, its different issue atm. But main idea behind bug post was that hit rating does not decrease talents for resist. As i wrote in post, blizzard said it's fixed so i decided to test it. Even with 18 % more hit(4 % is cap for same level players), it didn't change percentage of resists.

[Evolvee]

This should be reported as a PvE issue, because it is known those bugs get fixed within one week time.

https://www.bluetracker.gg/wow/topic/us-en/14287249236-new-dispel-resistance-mechanic/

That last sentence mentions that only offensive spells dont benefit from talents that give resistance tho.. So I guess you have to fear/poly spam someone and try dispel that person and see if it resists in 1000 tries. I do agree that the blue post from your first screenshot is misleading as it also implies dispels. I guess that post should be read as non dispel spells cant be resisted by talents and racials when you have enough hit. E.g. You ice lance 1000x into a blood elf should not resist once with 6% hit or whatever hit cap + 2% is in wotlk.

❓ This post is about dispelling buffs such as stamina or intellect from unit protected by dispel resistance to these auras. The post is not misleading in any way?

The "priest buff dispel resistance" is exactly the same as any other miss talent such as Hightened Senses or Sacred Cleansing. I dont get your post, ur probably mixing 2 things that have nothing to do with each other.

[Icedeadd]

This should be reported as a PvE issue, because it is known those bugs get fixed within one week time. https://www.bluetracker.gg/wow/topic/us-en/14287249236-new-dispel-resistance-mechanic/ That last sentence mentions that only offensive spells dont benefit from talents that give resistance tho.. So I guess you have to fear/poly spam someone and try dispel that person and see if it resists in 1000 tries. I do agree that the blue post from your first screenshot is misleading as it also implies dispels. I guess that post should be read as non dispel spells cant be resisted by talents and racials when you have enough hit. E.g. You ice lance 1000x into a blood elf should not resist once with 6% hit or whatever hit cap + 2% is in wotlk.

❓ This post is about dispelling buffs such as stamina or intellect from unit protected by dispel resistance to these auras. The post is not misleading in any way?

The "priest buff dispel resistance" is exactly the same as any other miss talent such as Hightened Senses or Sacred Cleansing. I dont get your post, ur probably mixing 2 things that have nothing to do with each other.

It's correct. I wanted to get clarify on this issue because i look on dispel as spell. So we are on same page.

[Evolvee]

I didnt reply to you. I replied to xyzkangui who deleted his post after I posted mine.

Dunno why github doesnt display it in the log.

[XyzKangUI]

I didnt reply to you. I replied to xyzkangui who deleted his post after I posted mine.

Dunno why github doesnt display it in the log.

In fact you pmed me first on discord about my post. I cba'd to argue, then I deleted the post and you posted yours after. Then you told me to repost.

@Icedeadd Sorry for the confusion. I linked a blue post mentioning that offensive spells do not benefit from the protection talents, while defensive spells such as stamina do. I questioned the fact that defensive spells by that same mechanism can be overcome by hit rating. From my point of view the talents such as Heigtened senses and blood elf racial only help you resist offensive spells done to you by others. I believe hit rating could even out those talents and racials to never miss your offensive spell. I just do not know if the same logic applies to the defensive spells. In classic 1.13.7 they added dispel resist and in tbc they made extra hit rating useless vs resistance talents, which included your offensive spells like fear having perma 15% resist chance vs priest with unbreakable will. Then the blue post from 2009 mentions a change that offensive spells do not benefit from spell resist talents, while defensive spells still do. Your first post implies as if spell hit should overcome both defensive and offensive spell, which I could not find any information about dating back to wotlk. Seeing from your test it seems that defensive spells indeed are not covered by the dispels. The blue post does mention that they changed the mechanic. Blizz is notorious for causing confusion. Like in their latest hotfix "immune to sap" is put under UI and accessibility changes. Furthermore they couldnt get cloak of shadows properly working entire tbc s1, so i wouldnt exclude the possibility of them messing up.

[Evolvee]

I didnt reply to you. I replied to xyzkangui who deleted his post after I posted mine. Dunno why github doesnt display it in the log.

In fact you pmed me first on discord about my post. I cba'd to argue, then I deleted the post and you posted yours after. Then you told me to repost.

@Icedeadd Sorry for the confusion. I linked a blue post mentioning that offensive spells do not benefit from the protection talents, while defensive spells such as stamina do. I questioned the fact that defensive spells by that same mechanism can be overcome by hit rating. From my point of view the talents such as Heigtened senses and blood elf racial only help you resist offensive spells done to you by others. I believe hit rating could even out those talents and racials to never miss your offensive spell. I just do not know if the same logic applies to the defensive spells. In classic 1.13.7 they added dispel resist and in tbc they made extra hit rating useless vs resistance talents, which included your offensive spells like fear having perma 15% resist chance vs priest with unbreakable will. Then the blue post from 2009 mentions a change that offensive spells do not benefit from spell resist talents, while defensive spells still do. Your first post implies as if spell hit should overcome both defensive and offensive spell, which I could not find any information about dating back to wotlk. Seeing from your test it seems that defensive spells indeed are not covered by the dispels. The blue post does mention that they changed the mechanic. Blizz is notorious for causing confusion. Like in their latest hotfix "immune to sap" is put under UI and accessibility changes. Furthermore they couldnt get cloak of shadows properly working entire tbc s1, so i wouldnt exclude the possibility of them messing up.

In this video you see the priest dispel and its removing 1/2 buffs a couple times, so I guess he had a resist. https://youtu.be/svJIdBWokZg&t=200

This issue is about the fact (I didnt test it, just looking at the test results in the first image) that with this fix https://github.com/JamminL/wotlk-classic-bugs/issues/143 they enabled auras that increase chance to miss to be penetrated by hit rating. Nothing more, nothing less. It doesnt matter whether the aura is offensive or deffensive.

Your bluepost from ghostcrawler merely explains what changes they made to the talents that increase such miss chance - before it was affecting all the spells, after the change it affected only the buffs/dots, not CCs for example. But the hit-rating-penetration mechanic should still apply to all spells, doesnt matter whether they are offensive or deffensive, its completely unrelated. If defensive spells are not covered, why would anyone even want to overcap hit rating for them? The change made by blizzard in https://github.com/JamminL/wotlk-classic-bugs/issues/143 would be completely pointless.

The video you linked doesnt prove anything whatsoever as you simply cannot get 30% spell hit rating so yes, obviously some dispels on druid buffs will resist.

Dispel resistance is extremely crucial for PVP and whether this gets fixed or not has a huge impact on the gameplay. Lets try not to derail this thread from its purpose.

[XyzKangUI]

I didnt reply to you. I replied to xyzkangui who deleted his post after I posted mine. Dunno why github doesnt display it in the log.

In fact you pmed me first on discord about my post. I cba'd to argue, then I deleted the post and you posted yours after. Then you told me to repost. @Icedeadd Sorry for the confusion. I linked a blue post mentioning that offensive spells do not benefit from the protection talents, while defensive spells such as stamina do. I questioned the fact that defensive spells by that same mechanism can be overcome by hit rating. From my point of view the talents such as Heigtened senses and blood elf racial only help you resist offensive spells done to you by others. I believe hit rating could even out those talents and racials to never miss your offensive spell. I just do not know if the same logic applies to the defensive spells. In classic 1.13.7 they added dispel resist and in tbc they made extra hit rating useless vs resistance talents, which included your offensive spells like fear having perma 15% resist chance vs priest with unbreakable will. Then the blue post from 2009 mentions a change that offensive spells do not benefit from spell resist talents, while defensive spells still do. Your first post implies as if spell hit should overcome both defensive and offensive spell, which I could not find any information about dating back to wotlk. Seeing from your test it seems that defensive spells indeed are not covered by the dispels. The blue post does mention that they changed the mechanic. Blizz is notorious for causing confusion. Like in their latest hotfix "immune to sap" is put under UI and accessibility changes. Furthermore they couldnt get cloak of shadows properly working entire tbc s1, so i wouldnt exclude the possibility of them messing up. In this video you see the priest dispel and its removing 1/2 buffs a couple times, so I guess he had a resist. https://youtu.be/svJIdBWokZg&t=200

This issue is about the fact (I didnt test it, just looking at the test results in the first image) that with this fix #143 they enabled auras that increase chance to miss to be penetrated by hit rating. Nothing more, nothing less. It doesnt matter whether the aura is offensive or deffensive.

Your bluepost from ghostcrawler merely explains what changes they made to the talents that increase such miss chance - before it was affecting all the spells, after the change it affected only the buffs/dots, not CCs for example. But the hit-rating-penetration mechanic should still apply to all spells, doesnt matter whether they are offensive or deffensive, its completely unrelated. If defensive spells are not covered, why would anyone even want to overcap hit rating for them? The change made by blizzard in #143 would be completely pointless.

The video you linked doesnt prove anything whatsoever as you simply cannot get 30% spell hit rating so yes, obviously some dispels on druid buffs will resist.

Dispel resistance is extremely crucial for PVP and whether this gets fixed or not has a huge impact on the gameplay. Lets try not to derail this thread from its purpose.

Good point about video. That is why i deleted it before anyone replied.

[Icedeadd]

Yeah, I agree with both of you and have nothing important to add. (In last post, Evolve wrote exactly everything that i wanted to say :D ).

[XyzKangUI]

Now PTR is up again I done the same tests again.

1000 smites into blood elf = 0 resists. Meaning spell hit > racial.

There is a base dispel resistance in the game, which cannot be overcome by spell hit it seems (as per 1.13.7 patch). What that exact % is, I don't know.

Also the talents like "Silent Resolve" and "Subtlety" cannot be overcome by spell hit, which you have mentioned.

My best guess is that the blue post intended to improve upon tbc resistance where spell hit reduction talents like Heigtened Senses could not be overcome by spell hit. While keeping the dispel base resistance + dispel protection talents intact.

In wotlk magic school resistance racials got changed to 2% spell miss, I guess that change intended to cover that. Ergo overcoming spell hit reduction talent isnt the same as overcoming dispel resist reduction talent.

This is a tbc test where heigtened senses + 1% base resist couldnt be overcome.

In wotlk I've done the same test vs heigtened senses, but i've used a smaller sample of casts because 225 casts should be enough to get atleast 1 resist.

As you see compared to TBC heightened senses can be overcome now in wotlk by spell hit. This means that Blizzard in fact did make changes as mentioned in the blue post.

Moreover I found this 2009 post mentioning that spell hit cannot overcome talents such as silent resolve: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/637312-Hit-cap-for-Shadowpriest/page2?p=6080171&viewfull=1#post6080171

This post refers to a wiki page about the dispel mechanic. A dispel might land - which is affected by your spell hit - while it might not remove any aura's at all ("fails"). On spell hit procs are not affected by fails. As such, a Dispel Magic (rank 2) can trigger a proc even though it fails at removing both buffs.

If I understand correctly any dispel spell goes through two checks. The initial dispel, just the landing spell not the removal effect part, is affected by spell hit and therefore rolls a dice if it lands or not. When it succesfully lands theres another rng check depending on dispel resistance. This "fail" mechanism doesnt seem to be affected by spell hit or pen, only the landing cast is.

Also the only patch I could find mentioning any change resembling your blue post is this: https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Patch_3.0.8

The patch notes seem to talk only about racials and the change of dispel protection talents. It does not mention any change related to spell hit miss talents such as heightened senses, however my test does show that blizzard has changed the mechanic compared to TBC Classic. The only thing I could find about spell resistance mechanic in wotlk was this thread: https://web.archive.org/web/20101108110127/http://elitistjerks.com/f15/t44675-resistance_mechanics_wotlk/

Im inclined to believe that the changes made by Blizzard are working as intended. The spell hit miss talents and racials (read tooltip: "reduces the chance you are hit by spells") can be overcome by spell hit unlike in TBC Classic. I guess the only way to satisfy everyone with a correct answer is when Blizz steps in to respond.

[Evolvee]

You have just repeated the first post. Dispel talents arent penetrated by hit rating...no shit Kevin, thats what this issue is all about... the dispel resist talent are exactly the same as global resist talents except only for certain auras but they get treated differently when it comes to hit rating penetration when they should not.

[Evolvee]

BUMP can this be finally fixed? It goes directly against this https://github.com/JamminL/wotlk-classic-bugs/issues/143#issuecomment-1209998266

why is there still pending approval?