Feature request: shotgun suppressor

[Griffinhart]

Not just the realm of film.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtIqTfObXIo

http://www.silencerco.com/products/salvo/

Not sure if it should be as simple as allowing the existing suppressor item for shotguns, or if there should be a separate shotgun suppressor item made.

[kevingranade]

Even if we take silencerco at their word that this thing is viable, it should be both ridiculously rare and uncraftable.

[gvlasov]

Just as in the classic shooter:

shotgun silencer
Skills used: fabrication
Required skills: N/A
Difficulty: 1
Time to complete: 1 minute
Tools required:
> 1 tool with screwdriving of 1 or more
Components required:
> 1 cat corpse

[karols146]

Nice one Suseika ;D We should give a very low durability, and destroying after few shots ;P

[Rivet-the-Zombie]

If it worked like it did in Postal, it just would just turn the BOOM into a MEEEEOOOW.

[Okiemurse]

According to Silencerco's own documentation, the sound level of a silenced 12 gauge shotgun is reduced from 160 dB to 137 dB (at the top of OSHA approved noise levels), whereas a jackhammer is on their chart as 130 dB. A .223 rifle is about 170 dB.

http://www.silencerco.com/how-do-silencers-work/ http://www.freehearingtest.com/hia_gunfirenoise.shtml (a 3rd party gunshot decibel chart)

Furthermore, it costs $1,500 and requires a special permit.

I'd believe EXTREMELY rare, especially in the northeast, and only reducing sound levels 10%, but the things actually aren't that hard to make (especially if you already have the equipment make entire cars in-game).

I really dislike magic silencers in general. They aren't silent. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suppressor#Effectiveness

[Griffinhart]

According to Silencerco's own documentation, the sound level of a silenced 12 gauge shotgun is reduced from 160 dB to 137 dB

136.5 dB actually, if you're using the 26" model.

Which is, according to Silencerco's own documentation, slightly louder than a .308 through the Harvester (136.4 dB), and slightly quieter than a .300WM through the Harvester (138.3 dB). Also quieter than a .308 through the Saker (137.8 dB).

It costs $1,500

The Saker for 7.62 NATO is 1300USD, and the Harvester Big Bore 338 is 1600USD, what's your point?

and requires a special permit

All suppressors in the USA require a tax stamp/permit (assuming the state you live in allows you to own a suppressor in the first place - and from what I remember, CDDA's setting lore has gun laws become significantly more liberal [not in the political sense], so that it's not unreasonable for the New England region to have suppressors lying around willy-nilly). As far as I know, there is no permit requirement specifically for the SIlencerco Salvo (or for any other suppressor meant to be fitted to a shotgun).

I really dislike magic silencers in general. They aren't silent.

Which is why I don't refer to them as "silencers". And I never said anything about suppressors - for shotguns or otherwise - making a firearm silent, just that shotgun suppressors are an IRL thing (even before Silencerco's Salvo, but "special-made from a small gunsmith" isn't something people tend to believe in), which is a reasonable (IMO) rationale for implementing them in CDDA.

e: Also, looking at that third-party chart, .308 at 24" is louder than a 12 ga. 28", so from what I can tell, the Salvo essentially brings a 12 ga. down to the same noise level as a suppressed .308.

[Okiemurse]

Hey now let's not get into splitting decibels. ;)

I think you and I largely agree here, I was just providing some stuff to build stats off of.

I think they should be 10-15% noise reducing (maybe more with subsonic small caliber arms), very rare in the wild, but craft able by the player. There should probably be two types - a makeshift one possible to be made at moderate skill levels that breaks down and lowers accuracy, and a well made one that should be able to be made at high skill levels that doesn't affect accuracy as much but may need to be custom made for each type of weapon. And I don't think either handmade version should suppress as well as whatever materials they are using at silencerco

[Griffinhart]

Actually, what kind of scaling does CDDA use for its sound measures? Linear or logarithmic? Because 10-15% might be too much or too little, depending.

[kevingranade]

Sound scaling is effectively linear, +1 unit of volume = +1 unit of distance. Someone feel free to make a PR that changes that though.

[KA101]

Sound scaling is effectively linear, +1 unit of volume = +1 unit of distance.

Tested that once and had some trouble: turrets' warnings weren't audible at their engagement-range level of volume away (no walls or anything, open air). :-/

[Asmageddon]

Well, we have relatively lightweight gyroscopic stabilizer mods, it strikes me that a properly noise-canceling attachment would be viable, although certainly not craftable. As for standard suppressors, yeah, they need some rebalancing. On lower-end pistols, they can cut off half of the damage, which is completely unrealistic and quite awful as far as usability of some firearms goes.

[desrik]

If it worked like it did in Postal, it just would just turn the BOOM into a MEEEEOOOW.

I say we add this as an iuse for a cat corpse :D

[Asmageddon]

What about a recipe that requires an environmental factor of a nearby cat instead? Killing kitties is a bad thing :(

[kevingranade]

How about you stop with the stupid postal bullshit, that is not happening, period. It's in incredibly poor taste and I have a much lowered opinion of everyone who has shown support for it.

[gvlasov]

I don't really care if the cat suppressor makes it into the game or not (that was more of a bad joke, I didn't want to actually suggest it to be added), but just to be clear: "destressing yourself" on top of a pile of children corpses = fine, cat suppressor = bad taste? Come on. There's nothing to lower your opinion of us folks about, that's just playing around with the robust enough mechaincs of a game we like.

[KA101]

Difference between something you could do as a result of game mechanics, and something there would be an explicit mechanic (the crafting recipe) to do. I wasn't thrilled about the cat recipe either.

[Okiemurse]

Ahem, to get things back on track...

I'm new to github and I am not a programmer so I'm not sure how to post this or whether code is correct but looking at the json for suppressors it doesn't look too complicated to code in shotguns. Doesn't seem too unreasonable considering that we've proven they do exist and aren't too different from other suppressors in principle.

At first I disagreed with suppressors decreasing damage and accuracy but thinking over it now, I think that reducing damage done is actually a good abstract non-fiddly way of modelling the need to use subsonic ammunition to get the best noise reduction out of a suppressor. Also, from a game balance perspective, it gives you a negative to go with the positive. I would also like to see homemade suppressors be significantly worse than professionally machined ones made by highly skilled lifetime gunsmiths pre-cataclysm.

While we're talking suppressors, are they separate items per gun or even by gun category? It seems that at least with the professionally made high quality suppressors that they should only fit certain models or category of firearm. i.e. a rifle suppressor should be incompatible with pistols. Ideally the commercial suppressors should be separated by caliber but that could be too complicated and not as mod-compatible as matching it up to broader categories.

Since the homemade should be janky and largely ineffective anyways, I don't see the need to differentiate that out into different flavors.

My proposed changes are below to the gun json. (I'm new to the community and don't know the story behind all the balance decision so feel free to ignore, I'm just trying to get things constructive here)

• added "shotgun" to both suppressors (don't know if this is the right variable, change as needed)
• reduced commercial suppressor penalties (dispersion 15 -> 5, damage mod -4 -> -2)
• reduced commercial suppressor noise mod ( -30 -> -15)
• reduced homemade suppressor penalties slightly (damage mod -5 -> -3)
• reduced homemade suppressor noise reduction significantly (-15 -> -5)

I realized now that my ideas could be viewed as an overall nerf so feel free to ignore in the name of fun. This is a videogame after all.

    {
        "type" : "GUNMOD",
        "id" : "suppressor",
        "name" : "suppressor",
        "dispersion_modifier" : 5,
        "damage_modifier" : -2,
        "description" : "Using a suppressor is almost an imperative in zombie-infested regions.  Gunfire is very noisy, and will attract predators.  Its only drawback is a reduced muzzle velocity, resulting in less accuracy and damage.",
        "location": "muzzle",
        "weight" : 410,
        "to_hit" : 1,
        "color" : "dark_gray",
        "symbol" : ":",
        "material" : ["steel", "null"],
        "mod_targets" : ["pistol", "smg", "rifle","shotgun"],
        "volume" : 2,
        "bashing" : 3,
        "cutting" : 0,
        "recoil_modifier" : -2,
        "price" : 48000,
        "loudness_modifier" : -15
    },
    {
        "type" : "GUNMOD",
        "id" : "crafted_suppressor",
        "name" : "homemade suppressor",
        "dispersion_modifier" : 15,
        "damage_modifier" : -3,
        "description" : "Using a suppressor is almost an imperative in zombie-infested regions.  Gunfire is very noisy, and will attract predators.  Its only drawback is a reduced muzzle velocity, resulting in less accuracy and damage.",
        "location": "muzzle",
        "weight" : 880,
        "to_hit" : 1,
        "color" : "dark_gray",
        "symbol" : ":",
        "material" : ["steel", "null"],
        "mod_targets" : ["pistol", "smg", "rifle","shotgun"],
        "volume" : 3,
        "bashing" : 3,
        "cutting" : 0,
        "recoil_modifier" : -1,
        "price" : 480,
        "loudness_modifier" : -5
    },

[KA101]

???

1) SG suppressor needs to be a separate item; you want to make rifle suppressor and handgun/SMG suppressor separate, sure, but SG is a much larger shot 2) SG suppressor is not craftable 3) Damage reduction is somewhat achieved from the suppressor but also from the different ammo: you want something subsonic or cold-loaded, you load a subsonic or cold-loaded round.

[Okiemurse]

Is there separate cold loaded ammo? All i saw in ammo.json was .22cb which claims to reduce noise but doesn't have a loudness_modifier

edit: I agree with shotgun suppressors not being craftable, that was a mistake. So yeah, pistol/smg craftable, rifle craftable and separate, shotgun uncraftable and separate. I suppose separating pistol from rifle would allow you to tweak them both independently which is an advantage. Although suppressors tend to lower sound by a flat 30dB regardless of type so I'm fine with the same flat subtraction from all types

Ideally you would separate silencers out by caliber instead of gun type but that seems super fiddly. Some abstraction should be kept to keep things fun.

[kevingranade]

Loudness is derived from ammunition damage under the assumption that rounds that cause more damage use more propellant. .22cb is quieter simply because it is lower damage.

[Okiemurse]

Ohhhh, that's clever

[kevingranade]

No, I won't 'ease up', I don't appreciate encouraging animal torture, jokingly or not. It's on a very short list with rape and torture that I have no sense of humor about, deal with it.

[KA101]

Torture is torture, doesn't matter if the critter looks like you, it's still unacceptable. Agreed.

[Asmageddon]

It wasn't a serious suggestion. That said, I am sorry if it did strike you as awful.