Flammable Arrows are way too heavy.

[Eighth-of-Third]

Each set of 5 flammable arrows weighs 40 units. I think a zero got misplaced.

[Stevensonz]

not really the stack of 5 arrows weighs = 10 pounds or 2 pounds per arrow (most arrows would weigh 2 pounds and 1 pound for wooden/ light arrows) the weight system uses quarter figures so 40 would look really high but it's only 10 pounds (Also I didn't design those arrows to have those weight the original commit had them)

[Eighth-of-Third]

A stack of regular arrows weighs 1 unit per 10 arrows, so 0.5 units for 5 arrows. A rag weighs 1 unit. 7 shots of vodka weigh 1 unit, so 5 shots of vodka weigh 0.715 units. 0.5 + 0.715 + 1 = 2.215 units, when in your pack separately. Somehow, when they get crafted together, they now weigh 40 units. That's around 1800% as heavy as they were before.

This is a problem.

[KA101]

I'm with Izicata here. "Balance" can't justify such a substantial weight increase.

[Stevensonz]

here's what goes into your arrow 1 weight normal arrow head 12 weight normal shaft 1 weight fletching, 1 weight rag 1 weight flammable liquid. 1+12+1+1+1= 16 weight x 5 = 80 should be right? but it was made 40. also look at the archery json.file even normal arrows weigh more now. Arrows aren't really that light weight anyway doubt a normal dude can carry 150 arrows and not suffer weight penalty in real life.

[Eighth-of-Third]

I'm looking at the weights and recipes in-game right now. Arrowheads weigh 1 per 10. Wood arrow shafts weigh 1 per 10. Fletching weighs 1 per 100. The recipe only requires 1 rag to make 5 arrows, so that rag is split 5 ways. Same thing with the flammable liquid, you only need 1 shot of vodka per 1 flammable arrow.

arrow weight = 1/10 + 1/10 + 1/100 + 1/5 + (5/7)*1/5 = 0.1 + 0.1 + 0.01 + 0.2 + 0.143 = 0.553

So 0.553 units per flaming arrow, or around 2.5 to 3 units per stack of 5 flaming arrows.

[Stevensonz]

whatever reason the original commit had it for I don't know maybe it's intended as a balance so you can't bring like 100 flaming arrows and burn everything in sight at once.

[ejseto]

The hell, "most arrows would weigh 2 pounds?" I kind of doubt that, 2 pounds is not as light as you would think. Balance is less important than immersion (though of course it can affect immersion). This being a roguelike, nobody is competing against anyone else. If something is overpowered, just nerf the availability. Incongruity is harder to accept in terms of suspension of disbelief than flat out ignoring the laws of physics. They should definitely be harder to make given how powerful you've made them (they set zombies on fire longer than flamethrower napalm, though flamethrowers set the ground on fire too causing a lot of damage). How about making them require incendiary from dismantled incendiary ammo? That would make them a LOT harder to craft since you'd need a puller and incendiary ammo is already pretty rare.

[Stevensonz]

@ejseto well the original effect it had was setting the ground on fire like the effect of simple flame thrower which was even more powerful as it was an area effect and fire even a small fire can kill anything that can be affected by it, than being set on fire for some reason which is a slower process.

What should be the appropriate weight for it then if 40 is not acceptable for some people?

[macrosblackd]

Hmm

Actually, I was in such a huff at seeing the high weight, did some math based on the weights of rags and alcohol and discovered the weight per 100 should be 55...

Although you are incorrect about most arrows weighing 1-2 pounds, they generally weigh 200-700 grain which is the equivalent to 0.11 quarter pounds and 0.40 quarter pounds. Quarter pounds being the unit of weight that the game is using.

So. all in all, I actually find 40 per 100 more agreeable than 55 per 100 so, my apologies Stevensonz and thanks for fixing my arrows =)

[ejseto]

Izicata actually did the math. They shouldn't weigh more than the sum of their parts. As for their damage, 10 turns of 3-8 damage per turn is almost guaranteed death, especially if you already hit them for at least 20-30 damage.

The thing with the weight seems to be that you want everyone to use them, but nobody to use them excessively, which doesn't really work as a concept. A lot of people are going to metagame which means if something works very well, that's all they're going to do. Other people will simply refuse to use unbalanced items out of principle, or because it breaks immersion to just spam 1-hit-KO fire arrows everywhere.

[macrosblackd]

Yea, Izicata hit the number pretty much right on the dot for weight per arrow (0.55). One of the things I'd like to see expanded is being able to set THINGS on fire with flaming arrows. For example, shoot a tree, there is a good chance it will catch of fire; shoot a house, good chance it catches on fire, etc.

[Stevensonz]

normal monsters standing/being on a small fire is a 1 hit-KO without them being able to move. not sure what the concept really is with fire arrows though but they still are able to move a little bit even if you set them on fire. and I guess most monsters have a low hp pool so they seem super effective on low tier monsters.

[ejseto]

@macrosblackd That wouldn't be possible with the way flaming arrows are currently implemented, since they don't actually create a fire field on the ground. Monsters on fire and terrain on fire are separate kinds of fire, as far as the game is concerned. Flamethrowers combine both, but flaming arrows and incendiary bullets only set their targets on fire.

[KA101]

Seems like one "discourage flaming-arrow spam" solution would be a chance that they ignite the ground. Somewhere around 30% per shot that misses seems like it would discourage people from using flaming arrows willy-nilly on flammable terrain.

(On a hit,much lower but non-zero. Accidents happen.)

[ejseto]

That would only make them more powerful though, since standing in fire does more damage than being on fire.

[kevingranade]

Some balance points to go after: Firing rate: change the arrows to require igniting them individually, so when you activate a stack of them, it pulls one off and lights it. As mentioned before, we can't have ammo be an "active" item at the moment, but as a stopgap, we could only allow one arrow to be lit at once, which we could enforce in the iuse for the flammable arrow. The ignite/fire actions will throttle rate of fire. Ignition potential: if they're super deadly, maybe we should reduce the chance of them catching the target on fire, not every target hit by a flaming arrow is going to burst into flame. Flight performance: we can reduce the range of the flaming arrow due to weight and lack of aerodynamics.

We have options for balancing, I'm not sure what the right weight is, but lets stick with what makes sense for the item physically. I'm more concerned with a sensible weight for a "flaming arrow" than for making the weight in and weight out for individual craft recipes match up.

[Stevensonz]

we could change activation amount and lower range. I'm not keen on reducing ignite potential as it's literally a flaming arrow that would set you on fire (or that part of the body on fire and eventually spread) unlike incendiary ammo which are only sparks and flammable shots though. as for weight that is a tough one.....

[ejseto]

You do realize that this flaming arrow sets targets on fire longer than being hit with burning napalm. That's a bit of an incongruity. Living flesh doesn't really burn that well either, considering our bodies are over 70% water. If it did, they wouldn't have had to burn witches at the stake, they would've just set them on fire and that would be that. If this is just an arrow that's bit lit on fire, as you often see archers in movies do before they draw, I think that's mostly to a) set wooden buildings on fire, and b) illuminate the impact area. It's certainly not to turn their enemies into human torches. If it's really supposed to be, say, a canister of napalm or white phosphorus or something, then it should definitely have lower range and accuracy since that sounds extremely unwieldy, in which case you might as well just give them the FLAME flag like flamethrowers have since I wouldn't expect to hit anything with an arrow like that.

[KA101]

@ejseto "set wooden buildings on fire" was where I was going with my suggestion. OK, you killed that Hulk, but now you gotta get out of there quick and here's hoping there wasn't anything important in there.