Remove duct tape requirement for screwdriver

[Charlesilv4]

I dont see much logical sense in using duct tape for the screwdriver, we can use strings or rags as a substitute.

[mugling]

Without duct tape it's craftable within the first hour which does upset balance somehwat. Same reason hacksaw is a relatively rare drop

[Blank99]

it could be made into a 'makeshift' screwdriver, then bump the quality of regular and set ones by 1. Much like you can make a makeshift hammer that's worse than the drop one, or make a wood adze, while an actual wood saw is better.

Independently of that, the duct tape requirement could be replaced by something else that makes more sense from a realism perspective while still retaining the balance. Glue & wood, maybe, or a better tool to get the head right.

[Charlesilv4]

IMO the only thing it upsets is the RNG.

[mugling]

So how does this actually improve the gameplay?

[Charlesilv4]

Unless you like being dependent on the random chances of finding duct tape or a screwdriver, is much better to make one. Also finding a screwdriver or making one is almost equal in pros/cons. If you are on a city you have a high chance of finding one, but if you like to play with small cities or isolated you have no options but to rely on RNG to be able to progress. How not being able to make a screwdriver improve the gameplay ?

[mugling]

How not being able to make a screwdriver improve the gameplay ?

Because it's defcto removal of the screwdriver

[Blank99]

removal of requirement: it opens some recipes early, like deconstruction, tho nothing particularly powerful since those tend to be gated by either materials, metal sawing, or welding. It makes it a little easier for lab challenge starts to beat it through electrohack if the RNG is being cruel. It allows screwdrivers for wilderness games.

replacement of requirement: the recipe makes more sense, so it's prettier. All for a 1 line change. It may also allow screwdrivers for wilderness games.

Addition of a 'makeshift' quality: it makes sense so it's prettier, and it allows for opening some choice recipes to make the early game more interesting. Regular screwdriver remains attractive, not just for those recipes that remain gated, but for allowing toolboxes and utility belts to be made.

I do not know how the code handles when you're crafting something and your tools are superior to what you need. IF the code rewards you for this with, say, faster crafting, then the 'makeshift' version allows access to things, while the regular one remains attractive because it gets your crafting speed up, Slow crafting would make exploration necessary for food, anyways.

[mugling]

Variable crafting times aren't supported and more makeshift items is just bloat. You can already craft far too much from the materials in the starting shelter. The changes your proposing adjust balance enormously so there isn't much chance of that change being made unless you can demonstrate necessity

[Blank99]

That's a little unfair, but perhaps I wasn't explaining myself well enough. The proposals are OR, not AND. Any of the three would solve "this recipe doesn't make sense", how much work it takes and how much impact it has varies depending on the option.

Yes, the 'removal' path lets you make more things at the start. Yes, this alters balance. This change isn't necesarily all that large. The biggest is furniture deconstruction and perhaps one early electronic out of the console, neither of which helps you feed or water your character.

Yes, the 'makeshift' path involves more bloat, but it is not without precedent in other tools (hammer, saw, crowbar), and having a benefit for beating the tool requirement isn't necesary for it, just something that'd be 'nice'. This benefit doesn't have to be of crafting time either, it could be of crafting chance.

However, the 'replacement' path has zero balance impact and little to no implementation difficulty. It's a "this doesn't make sense, let's change it with something that does make sense without touching balance beyond minor RNG-proofing, with as little work as possible".

For example, most places that drop screwdrivers also drop hammers. Changing requiring duct tape to make a handle into requiring a good hammer to make the head right makes sense and doesn't change balance.

Alternatively, metal sawing could get you the screwdriver head, it's a much rarer tool so it would have an even lower chance of impacting balance, but it still makes more sense than duct tape.

[Coolthulhu]

For example, most places that drop screwdrivers also drop hammers.

But most early uses for hammer require only a makeshift one, which is much cheaper.

[Blank99]

But most early uses for hammer require only a makeshift one, which is much cheaper.

What I mean is requiring the good hammer, either through hammering 3 or through fine hammering, representing the precision to get the screwdriver head the right shape/size.

So the player wouldn't be able to craft the screwdriver until visiting places that regularly drop screwdrivers, balance is retained, but the recipe makes more sense.

[flitvious]

Screwdriver is a scavenger's loot, like hacksaw. It should stay so.

Screwdrivers already became more easily accessible with the addition of extra tool items. In 0.C I've crafted screwdrivers, now I never do that, because they are so common.

You can obtain a screwdriver by getting a loot or zombie drop:

• screwdriver or screwdriver set (often)
• toolbox (rare)
• swiss army knife or multi-tool (very rare)

And also you can get duct tape from scavenged stuff:

• Find duct tape (often). Pretty much anywhere in the city, including cars.
• Find and unload duct tape from a basic repair kit (somewhat rare).
• Craft duct tape (never). Needs a book and fab 3, but all components are common (superglue, rags, thread, plastic chunks). Also RNG must really hate you.

[Charlesilv4]

Sorry clicked on the wrong button. But like i said having access to the screwdriver early on doesnt change the game balance overral. For the best recipes you still need the screwdriver set.

You can already craft far too much from the materials in the starting shelter.

Thats not realy a good point.

Screwdriver is a scavenger's loot, like hacksaw. It should stay so.

Hacksaw is far more usefull than the screwdriver, wich doesnt affect the game that much unless it is a screwdriver set.

[mugling]

OP continuing discussion in http://smf.cataclysmdda.com/index.php?topic=13755.0

[DangerNoodle]

This seems rather peculiar. I was unaware that a pull request involving this was already attempted.

If this is still deemed undesirable at present, I can remove my proposed idea from https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/pull/19519 if desired.