Balance Prime Foo mutations

[ghost]

Expected behavior

Prime Strength/Dexterity/Intelligence/Perception of Alpha threshold mutations brings your stats near to a modern human maximum, respecting your current stat value.

Actual behavior

Gained bonuses seem stubbed, giving you +2 if you had 6 points and +7 if you had 8.

Suggested solution

Balance out gained stat bonuses the following way:

Initial stat point	Mutated was	Mutated will be
4	8 (+4)	12 (+8)
5	8 (+3)	12 (+7)
6	8 (+2)	13 (+7)
7	11 (+4)	13 (+6)
8	15 (+7)	14 (+6)
9	15 (+6)	14 (+5)
10	15 (+5)	15 (+5)
11	15 (+4)	15 (+4)
12	15 (+3)	16 (+4)
13	15 (+2)	16 (+3)
14	15 (+1)	17 (+3)
15	18 (+3)	17 (+2)
16	18 (+2)	18 (+2)
17	18 (+1)	18 (+1)
18	18 (+0)	18 (+0)
19	18 (-1)	19 (+0)
20	18 (-2)	20 (+0)

Average points gain with initial points from 4 to 17:

• Currently +3.36 (hacked up to +7 if initial point were all set to 8)
• Would be +4.5, all neatly balanced and intuitive

You may say that possible +8 sounds like a big increase in stats, but consider the following:

• Alpha mutagen crafting is the very late game option, requiring the highest skill level and few other mutagens for it
• Someone who starts with such low stats probably may have that bonus
• Someone who starts with a hard early game is probably intended to overcome later on (common other games mechanic and just personal feeling)

Suggested implementation

I do not follow repository nor have any C++ skills but it seems to be straightforward. In the src/mutation.cpp changing in the Character::mutation_effect from

//...
    } else if (mut == trait_FOO_ALPHA) {
        ///\EFFECT_FOO_MAX determines bonus from FOO mutation
        if (foo_max <= 6) {
            foo_max = 8;
        } else if (foo_max <= 7) {
            foo_max = 11;
        } else if (foo_max <= 14) {
            foo_max = 15;
        } else {
            foo_max = 18;
        }
//...

to

//...
    } else if (mut == trait_FOO_ALPHA) {
        ///\EFFECT_FOO_MAX determines bonus from FOO mutation
        if (foo_max <= 5) {
            foo_max = 12;
        } else if (foo_max <= 7) {
            foo_max = 13;
        } else if (foo_max <= 9) {
            foo_max = 14;
        } else if (foo_max <= 11) {
            foo_max = 15;
        } else if (foo_max <= 13) {
            foo_max = 16;
        } else if (foo_max <= 15) {
            foo_max = 17;
        } else if (foo_max <= 17) {
            foo_max = 18;
        }
//...

and in the Character::mutation_loss_effect from

//...
    } else if (mut == trait_FOO_ALPHA) {
        ///\EFFECT_FOO_MAX determines penalty from FOO mutation loss
        if (foo_max == 18) {
            foo_max = 15;
        } else if (foo_max == 15) {
            foo_max = 8;
        } else if (foo_max == 11) {
            foo_max = 7;
        } else {
            foo_max = 4;
        }
//...

to

//...
    } else if (mut == trait_FOO_ALPHA) {
        ///\EFFECT_FOO_MAX determines penalty from FOO mutation loss
        if (foo_max == 17) {
            foo_max = 15;
        } else if (foo_max == 16) {
            foo_max = 13;
        } else if (foo_max == 15) {
            foo_max = 11;
        } else if (foo_max == 14) {
            foo_max = 9;
        } else if (foo_max == 13) {
            foo_max = 7;
        } else if (foo_max == 12) {
            foo_max = 5;
        }
//...

should probably do the trick?

Here comes another thing. In the current implementation "if you remove any of the Prime Foo mutations, the relevant stat will be decreased to the lowest possible value it could have been before getting the mutation. For example, if you had 13 Intelligence and got Prime Intelligence, your Intelligence would be raised to 15. If you removed the mutation afterwards, your Intelligence would be lowered to 8."

The only possible explanation of this behavior mentioned here was "Intended. Once you get Prime stats, perhaps you shouldn't be messing around with your genetics, hm?" from the https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/issues/11282#issuecomment-74574291. Well, is the game pro-futurism or pro-tradition? I would say, mess your genetics up and get some surprising rewards, come on! After all, possible +1 (well, possible +2 in case you pushed some initial stat way up to 16) definitely wouldn't be an exploit, considering what it would take to get all the alpha threshold mutations and purify them. Just a little trick to push your very late character that you don't want to be alpha to the very limits.

I am glad to hear comments on this and hopefully some support of the idea.

[kevingranade]

You haven't supported your expected behavior, that might be what you personally expect, but you need to convince others that you're right.

This is a very hard sell as "improving balance" when it consists of a massive buff to prime in every way. The balance goal for prime is that it provides significant stat increases across the board with not much in the way of penalties, and without becoming significantly, "inhuman". With these adjustments it seems likely that it becomes significantly better than mutation flavors that are saddled with significantly worse bad mutations.

[Mecares]

I do not see a reason to buff one of the most popular mutation paths even further.

[ghost]

@kevingranade thanks for the reply. Well, there is still a way to make it more intuitive and less random. Changing gained stat bonuses the following way:

Initial stat point	Mutated was	Mutated will be
4	8 (+4)	8 (+4)
5	8 (+3)	9 (+4)
6	8 (+2)	10 (+4)
7	11 (+4)	11 (+4)
8	15 (+7)	12 (+4)
9	15 (+6)	13 (+4)
10	15 (+5)	14 (+4)
11	15 (+4)	15 (+4)
12	15 (+3)	16 (+4)
13	15 (+2)	16 (+3)
14	15 (+1)	17 (+3)
15	18 (+3)	17 (+2)
16	18 (+2)	18 (+2)
17	18 (+1)	18 (+1)
18	18 (+0)	18 (+0)
19	18 (-1)	19 (+0)
20	18 (-2)	20 (+0)

will make average points gain up to initial 17 to be exactly the same +3.36 points. In case the community won't agree with the suggested behavior. In that way, receiving back lowest-possible-stat-it-was by getting alpha threshold mutations and purifying them won't be such an issue. Yet I believe that balancing a mutation like that is way wrong.

My point is the following. You ether enjoy some unusual situational mutation rewards and get along with unusual situational drawbacks or work hard to enjoy some common mutation rewards (mainly considerable stats boost) and get along with common drawbacks (Fast Metabolism, Disintegration), that would make life very uneasy early but could be tolerated later on.

I case you still consider the buff to be huge (which just would be very good at covering your weak spots in initial stats), I may suggest the following ways of reasonable rebalancing of alpha branch:

• Make mutagen crafting slightly more complex, like adding additional mutagen component
• Add another common drawback mutations with the same logic as described above. I would suggest:
  • Pain Sensitive and Flimsy: You are quite unused to get hurt (strength boost will make HP lowering tolerable anyway)
  • High Thirst: Your post-human body wants to stay hydrated!
  • Lightweight: Your perfect body is not designed to take bad things inside anymore (probably the same logic as already in game Junkfood Intolerance for alpha)
  • Minor Radioactivity or Radioactivity: You've retrofitted your body so much it starts to behave strangely...
• Enhance Disintegration trait. I really like the idea of body slowly melting away as a late game mutation, but as far as I remember, daily pokes seamlessly regenerate after a very little sleep. My suggest is to disable any natural regeneration. In that way, even 8 strength weakling would survive about 10 days with no support, but it will require player to actually do some preparations, advance first aid skill or get appropriate bionics.

So apart from stats sounding to be greatly buffed is there any reasons for the change not to be desirable? I'd also like to hear your thoughts about rearranging bonuses and adding additional negative mutations. And by the way, in 3 of 14 scenarios (for common 4 - 17 stats) gained bonuses become even less than it would be.

[ghost]

@Mecares so what we have now is basically +3.36 to all points (it could be "+2 +2 +2 +2" or "+7 +7 +7 +7" for stats in 2 points difference, so based nearly on luck or the knowledge of how the code is written) and very little sleep for nearly 10hp pokes a day while awake. As a bonus you may have big permanent stats loss on purifying.

Alpha branch is one of the most popular not because it's superior, but because it's very straightforward and doesn't have pesky traits that will distort your body or require you to do some preparations. And probably because it sounds cool.

[kevingranade]

Counter-proposal (I made this months ago, but it didn't send or something). The goal of Alpha is to bring stats to "extremely good, but not perfect", as such it intentionally penalizes stats that are already very high. This progression does that very simply by giving large bonuses to low stats, negligible bonuses to already good stats, and no bonus or penalties to very good stats. If your goal is

make it more intuitive and less random.

Then I would suggest this:

Initial stat point	Mutated was	Mutated will be
4	8 (+4)	11 (+7)
5	8 (+3)	11 (+6)
6	8 (+2)	12 (+6)
7	11 (+4)	12 (+5)
8	15 (+7)	13 (+5)
9	15 (+6)	13 (+4)
10	15 (+5)	14 (+4)
11	15 (+4)	14 (+3)
12	15 (+3)	15 (+3)
13	15 (+2)	15 (+2)
14	15 (+1)	16 (+2)
15	18 (+3)	16 (+1)
16	18 (+2)	17 (+1)
17	18 (+1)	17 (+0)
18	18 (+0)	18 (+0)
19	18 (-1)	18 (-1)
20	18 (-2)	18 (-2)

The early part of your first proposal is fine, as you can see I essentially copied it. The problem is the latter part of both proposals gives a massive buff to characters that already have high stats, which goes against the "good but not perfect" goal of Alpha.

[ghost]

@kevingranade

The early part of your first proposal is fine, as you can see I essentially copied it

and subtracted 1 for positive bonuses. In matters of average bonus gain this leaves it almost the same. I like it. About the latter part, I don't really think it has notable balance meaning, but if you say that's important I have no disputes.

[RedPine91]

At the very least, the current threshholds are very meta-gamey, with the best gains at 4, 8, and 15. I prefer the slightly more gradual progression posted by Kevin, which encourages all even numbers.

[BrianLefler]

This issue can be closed if people are happy with the new change.

Prime mutations now give a gradual bonus when a character's base stats were 14 or less, increasing the stat halfway towards 16, rounded down. They also continue to give the precursor mutation's +1 or +2 bonus.

Above a base stat of 14, they have no effect (other than continuing to give the precursor mutation's +1 or +2 bonus).

Base	Precursor	New Prime	Old Prime	Notes
5	6/7	11/12 (+5)	8 (+2/1)
6	7/8	12/13 (+5)	11 (+5/+4)
7	8/9	12/13 (+4)	11 (+3/+2)
8	9/10	13/14 (+4)	15 (+6/+5)
9	10/11	13/14 (+3)	15 (+5/+4)
10	11/12	14/15 (+3)	15 (+4/+3)
11	12/13	14/15 (+2)	15 (+3/+2)
12	13/14	15/16 (+2)	15 (+2/+1)
13	14/15	15/16 (+1)	15 (+1/+0)
14	15/16	16/17 (+1)	15 (0/-1)
15	16/17	16/17 (0)	18 (+2/+1)	(new) Prime mutation has no impact.
16	17/18	17/18 (0)	18 (+1/+0)
17	18/19	18/19 (0)	18 (0/-1)	(old) Penalty for mutating began here
18	19/20	19/20 (0)	18 (-1/-2)

If people want some other similar calculation I can do it, as long as its straightforward.

For example "A third of the way to 18" would give 1 less bonus to base stats 8 & under, but 1 more bonus to people with base stats of 13, 15, & 16.

[Night-Pryanik]

No objections so far, so closing for now.