What to do with manual installation of bionics?

[Night-Pryanik]

The series of PRs concerning autodocs and bionics installation overhaul have been merged some time ago. The bionics manipulation overhaul is almost done, and now we can sum up the results.

• Bionics can be (un)installed through the autodoc. Bionics (for now) still can be installed old-style manual way.
• Autodocs spawn (for now) in three places: hospital, bionic basement, and the military bunker's basement;
• Patient need to be induced into anesthesia so autodoc can conduct an operation upon him;
• Anesthesia spawn (for now) in five places: hospital, bionic basement, doctor's office, veterinarian office, and the military bunker's basement;
• To install bionics, patient no longer needs to achieve 10 percent painkiller threshold;
• To uninstall bionics, patient no longer needs the scalpel and a first aid kit.

I think this all has prepared the ground for the final step. The only remaining question is: what to do with manual installation of bionics? We could:

• Remove the manual installation altogether so autodoc will be the only way to install bionics. This include complete removing of install_bionic_actor from the code;
• Remove only install_bionic use action, and leave actor. This way someone someday could add a mod that will return the manual installation into the game as an alternative;
• Leave manual installation in the game and rework the autodocs so that they should have a higher chance of successful operation. This require thought of how manual installation should interact with anesthesia.

[ZhilkinSerg]

I suggest making a game option to allow manual installation/removal of bionics and move it to mod.

[ZhilkinSerg]

We also need some kind of advertisement, so new players would know about autodocs - flyers, journals, computer entries, npc advices, or something.

[Rivet-the-Zombie]

I kinda like the idea of being able to manually install them with all the gory possibilities that failure can produce. That said, it should be much, much safer to just use the autodoc thing instead.

[papersplease]

Have different tiers autodocs install different tier bionics, for example. Manual installation would have been fine for the simplest CBMs while under new anesthetics, but as I understand it, they render you unconscious. So autodocs are pretty much the only logical option IMO. You can keep the skill requirement for the installation as well, since autodocs are intended to be operated by some qualified medical staff.

I don't think there's a pressing need to remove anything from the code entirely, is it? At least for the testing period, you can keep it to be able to revert something if any issues arise.

[kevingranade]

I'm in favor of leaving the code in place to allow self-installation, but in the main game your options are autodoc or a npc doctor (or another TBD third party). This can either be as an option, or as an "installation kit" type item, or potentially something else. I don't have a strong opinion about how it should work, I'm just pointing out that it can work the way the mod maintainer wants it to, and there are options for how to go about it.

The other question is, is it reasonable right now to expect players to discover the existence of autodocs and npc doctors? I could be missing something, but it doesn't seem like it. Advertisements and NPC dialog are good options, the existence of broken autodocs would be a good pointer, and an autodoc-related quest would be great.
Likewise we might consider adding a copy of the doctor questline from the ranch to the survivor center, and one to the new base construction feature.

I think several of these options (not mecessarally all of them though) need to happen before we turn self-installation off by default.

[nexusmrsep]

In my opinion few of CBMs that don't require extreme surgical incursion for proper instalation might be flagged as possible for self-instalation. Example: power banks. We can discuss which ones those would be. Rest, aspecialy including limb and/or organ replacement, should be undoubtly locked for self instalation. Self instalation would still remain risky even for rudimental cbm's like power banks. So I am for leaving those part of code avalaible.

[AMurkin]

Idea: install power banks of each kind without autodoc, except the first one.

[ZhilkinSerg]

We have bionic slots project, so autodoc can be used to create these kind of slots. Then some simple bionics could be installed to these slots manually (e.g. powerbanks), but if you want to expand slots (to make room for more bionics) or install some complex bionics (e.g. artificial eye) - you will need autodoc.

[TechyBen]

Those seem some good ideas. As the CMBs could be entirely surgical, or some could be nano/injection/slot/switch out style. Any system could require full per patience adjustments (anti rejection drugs, adjusted to blood type/DNA/shape of patient), or could be universal.

So as a player, I'm happy for either, as long as the description and function are clear in the game (mechanics and implementation and/or descriptions). So I know what each thing is or is not.

For example, armour plating would have to be shaped to each person. Does the CMB do this, or the autodoc? Is a mechanical replacement limb grafted, or just applied to a grafted socket (thus first install needing autodoc, additional would be easy switch outs). Do the nano bots need programming? If not, why can I not just ingest/inject them and they work? As a player, I feel frustrated if the game is not clear on what is happening. I need more than "you can't do that", and closer to "why you can't do that" messages in game.

So really, the possibilities are limitless. It's left to an artistic or gameplay decision. Are the CMBs simple (artistic and realistic decision) thus similar to current prosthetics needing full surgical applications and anti rejection drugs. Or are the future tech with nano/DNA encompassing self installing packs?

To add to this, IMO no "salvaged" CMBs would work at all. There is little to no way to successfully get one out functioning, let alone re-introduce it to another person! However, that is for another discussion.

[BrianLefler]

• Move Bionic self-installation to the crafting menu under a Surgery tab. Make it take time, require thread, disinfectant, bandages, sewing kit, scalpel, scissors. Instead of crafting an item at the end, the CBM gets installed. The tab makes this discoverable. There is still a risk chance. (poor man's version: no crafting, but make the action require a surgical kit).
• Autodocs as a safer alternative with a higher success rate (0% for the simplest stuff).
• Trivial and Invasive Bionics get moved into different categories --invasive ones can't be self-installed. Autodocs can autoinstall trivial stuff, but requires the first aid skills for invasive bionics, making invasive bionics late-game without cutting the player out of early bionics. Perhaps indicate this with a clear naming scheme, like trivial CBMs become ABMs (Automatic Bionic Modules) or maybe large ones become DBMs or LBMs (Disruptive BMs, Large BMs). Maybe invasive bionics finally use the slot system, and trivial ones are unlimited.
• Have power storage not require surgery (instead, require a charging CBM to exist before installation).
• Salvaged CBMs are (variably) damaged, increasing install risk. Repairable with high electronics. Autodoc auto-install only works on perfect quality CBMs.

I would be happy to do the development on self-installation via crafting menu if the idea is endorsed.

[Night-Pryanik]

Make it take time, require thread, disinfectant, bandages, sewing kit, scalpel, scissors.

No anesthesia or painkillers?

Overall I don't like the idea of using craft menu for something that is not crafting.

[BrianLefler]

Oh yeah painkillers. Which might be nice in explicitly defining requirements (say 2 codeine or 1 heroin or 1 morphine), though it wouldn’t interact meaningfully with taking actual painkillers.

I haven’t used an auto doc yet but am really nervous about anesthesia as described. Does anesthesia mean a death sentence if you clear the area but get unlucky with a zombie hulk wander spawn? Because they could break in and kill you without waking you?

[Night-Pryanik]

Does anesthesia mean a death sentence if you clear the area but get unlucky with a zombie hulk wander spawn? Because they could break in and kill you without waking you?

Yes, it does.

[1skandar]

Noting that a CBM needs an autodoc or Doctor NPC to install in the description of the CBM itself would be the most unmissable way of making sure the players are aware.

[Night-Pryanik]

Noting that a CBM needs an autodoc or Doctor NPC to install in the description of the CBM itself would be the most unmissable way of making sure the players are aware.

Yes, I was thinking about it in the first place. Also add info in the help menu.

[BrianLefler]

Does anesthesia mean a death sentence if you clear the area but get unlucky with a zombie hulk wander spawn? Because they could break in and kill you without waking you?

Yes, it does.

Is there a solution to that? I realize this is unlikely, but I would not enjoy unavoidably dying from bad luck, when I was using the equipment as intended. It's part of the game to die from going to sleep in a safe building and waking up with zombies in your lap, but at least people get a chance to run/fight.

And agree, a crafting menu doesn't make sense. Maybe you could get similar effect by having a kit crafted once per surgery (the tools would be returned after surgery). Then installing a bunch of bionics wouldn't be too bad--someone can just type '-' to craft the previous item between installs, until they ran out of drugs or first aid kits.

• Prepped surgical kit: "A complete surgical kit prepared with everything you need for elective surgery and a full recovery: sterilized tools, medical supplies, and the industrial strength painkillers. Use this item to install a CBM. This process takes an hour." Proposed components: 1 scalpel, 1 scissors, 1 syringe, 2x first aid kit, 1 morphine/heroin/oxycotton, 50 thread/sinew (tool with sewing 1).
• Improvised surgical kit: "A makeshift surgical kit with enough cobbled together supplies to perform dangerously elective surgery. Use this item to install a CBM with a decreased chance of success. This process takes an hour and inflicts damage." Proposed components: 1 scalpel/xacto, 10 medical tape or 20 duct tape, 10 aspirin or 2 codeine, +ingredients similar to an improvised first aid kit.

[Night-Pryanik]

Is there a solution to that?

Exiting from anesthesia IRL is a long and complicated process, not like almost instant waking up from a sleep. For now we're leaving this effect behind the curtains, but can add the gradual exiting from anesthesia (like adding some "Dizziness" effect) in the future. Even if autodoc wakes you up right on the moment monster started attacking you, I thought that you just won't have enough time to fully wake up and take your chances of fighting or fleeing.

[Night-Pryanik]

That said, it should be much, much safer to just use the autodoc thing instead.

We could leave the manual installation in the game (though it will certainly require major rework in terms of painkillers/anesthesia and time consume) with all the checks for player skills, while autodoc could use fixed 20 level in all required skills (as NPC doctor is doing right now). This way could provide the natural choice towards the autodoc.

[nexusmrsep]

We could leave the manual installation in the game (though it will certainly require major rework in terms of painkillers/anesthesia and time consume) with all the checks for player skills, while autodoc could use fixed 20 level in all required skills (as NPC doctor is doing right now). This way could provide the natural choice towards the autodoc.

If so, i would propose the reversed approach of my previous idea, a flag that would lock certain CBM from manual self-instalation. In my mind I just can't walk over the idea of self installing eye replacement, skin replacment, limb replacement, stomach resection, etc.

Consider two kinds of anesthesia IRL: 1. general anesthesia - applied by proffesionals anestesiologists, using heavy chems, hard to control, individual doses, controlled chemiinduced waking up process, risk of side effects - where is it used? in full surgeries, where surgeon has to do a heavy incursion in one's body. Used mostly when you have to protect the body from the shock of surgery. 2. local anesthesia - in most cases just strong painkillers injected where the procedure takes place, used to relieve the pain, perhaps numb the operation area. Used in minor procedures.

Take Joint Torsion Ratchet CBM for example. If it will be agreed on, it can be allowed as a self-instalation CBM. Why? If all you need is a clean cut throu the skin to expose the joint and both bones to clamp the ratchet, and then sew the skin together, then it should not need general anesthesia. Also: you have both hands avalaible in this procedure, and can easily access the area.

Opposite example: Cerebral Booster CBM. There is no possible logical way someone could do self-instalation of this one. You can't reach the field of operation (in a convinient manner), you can't see the field of operation, and messing with your brain while being conscious is simply delusional. Self trepanation? Nope, not possible.

Conslusion: it is possible in my opinion to go throu every CBM asking: will simple skin cutting and sewing be enough to install it? Can I myself access the place of instalation to do it? Can I see this place? Will I have my hands avalaible for the procedure? (last one is important where hands are the place of instalation) This method would divide CBM we have in autodoc only and self-instalation-allowed.

[Night-Pryanik]

all you need is a clean cut throu the skin to expose the joint and both bones to clamp the ratchet, and then sew the skin together

You forgot about the wiring required to connect Joint Torsion Ratchet to the power banks somewhere inside one's body (where are they located, by the way?). Having that in mind, we could exclude all bionics with BIONIC_POWER_SOURCE flag from the list of easy-to-install bionics.

So, bionics that occupy both hands or both arms, bionics that involve inter-head or eye work, bionics that require complex operation on one's intestines, bionics that require limb replacement, bionics that are bionic power source - I think all of these are off-limits to self-installation. What remains? Terranian Sonar and a number of bionics that can be embedded in one hand or fingers? I wonder if this small list justifies existence of manual self-installation?

[TechyBen]

I would expect anything not a single incision, or injection (pill capsule type Nanobot repair factory, for example) would be out of the question. While self surgery is possible (see person who removed arm to survive a crevice fall), physiologically it would be difficult to perform, even with local anesthesia.

But I agree some would be "easy" effectively, and need only local anesthesia. Also, this is assuming specialist anti rejection drugs are not required!

It would effectively reduce all but the simplest, smallest most accessible CMBs to "self" installation via local anesthetic (for the sake of the game, it would work the same as general anesthesia, as the effects, numbness, inability to move/think clearly) would be the same to the player character. However, simple injection CMBs or incision CMBs (say power storage) would be edge cases and possibly doable.

As an example, see those putting RFID tags under the skin, magnetic "sensors" in fingers etc. So it would be down to deciding either for gameplay, or artistic merit, if the "finger pick" (for just one example) is a nano folding pill sized wire pick, or a full finger length entire hand replacing monster of a CMB... and adjusting the requirements (surgical doc or not) accordingly. :)

Personally I think it's worth keeping such a system in if it's accepted. While it may only currently work or be used for a handful (5?) of CMBs, it would allow modders or even other code (ahem, bright nights ;) ) to introduce other methods of player buffs/debuffs/modification from the mutagen/food/traits system. It would be a very robust system once slots and other requirements are introduced. See it as player construction similar to the vehicles... some things in the cars/trucks are rarely used (unicycles!) but the times they are, they are given really interesting play mechanics (carts/wheelbarrows/bicycles).

[nexusmrsep]

You forgot about the wiring required to connect Joint Torsion Ratchet to the power banks somewhere inside one's body (where are they located, by the way?). Having that in mind, we could exclude all bionics with BIONIC_POWER_SOURCE flag from the list of easy-to-install bionics.

In that case, its actualy reasonable to ditch self-instalation in vanilla all in all & leave the code for modders.

Unless a power network cbm would be taken into consideration, but I don't like that idea myself, and mention it only for the sake of the discussion. It would unnecesarily introduce layers on layers of CBM and interdependency, and with access to autodoc to install the network, there is no incentive to revert to self instalation for powered CBMs.

[FulcrumA]

I am absolutely fine with leaving manual installation option as a possibility, just one that has lower chance and is generally more dangerous than autodoc one. Possibly some of the most advanced CBMs could be autodoc-only or require other kind fo assistance (an NPC skilled in first aid?) as well to have a chance to be installed succesfully.

[Blank99]

Currently: It is my opinion that autodocs are currently too obscure for the removal of manual installation by default to be a good idea. They are also in too few locations, it would be far too easy for the player to be locked out of them entirely for the duration of the early and mid game, and while this can also happen to other aspects of the game, this is a lot more unlikely. This is not only a concern for simple/minor CBM, but also for cyborg professions if the change also removes CBM removal.

For the future: For the current fluff of CBMs, what little there is, manual installation and installation with non-Doctor NPC aid should still be possible, even if under a different success rate. Fluff changing and things like deepening the system to include slots for swappable bionics would, of course, alter this answer.

Regarding the general discussion: I see a lot of talk of classifying CBMs as self-installable or not, but it concerns me that nobody is making allowances for non-regular-human characters, there's also flaws in some of the proposed rule of thumb classifications. Self-trepanation sounds impossible, but what if you are a slime? A rule of thumb about not allowing self-installation on a CBM that occupies both hands sounds reasonable, but what if you have an NPC giving you a hand? What if you have more than two hands? What if the CBM is Integrated Toolset, and thus after installing half of it in your off-hand, it helps installing the other half on your main hand? What if you already have that CBM and are using it to help you install another? Replacing your eyes is one thing, but gluing retractable sunglasses to your face is quite another, despite both sharing the same slot. Similarly, it's one thing to stick an adrenal pump into your guts, it's another to replace your stomach.

And what difference would it make to have the sensory dulling CBM or mutating all the way into Prototype and being unable to feel pain? Having enough regeneration and disease immunity that infection and minor screw ups are no longer a concern?

[Night-Pryanik]

They are also in too few locations

Do you think they should be in every building in the game? How many locations do you think it would be not "too few"?

it would be far too easy for the player to be locked out of them entirely for the duration of the early and mid game

CBMs are not for early-game. Early-game player just don't have enough skills to reliably install bionics, most likely won't find anesthesia etc. Mid-game player would surely find one or more hospitals and is able to clean it. I'm not seeing any problem for mid-game player here.

flaws in some of the proposed rule of thumb classifications.

This rule of thumb should be taken into account AFTER deciding how to deal with the need of some sort of anesthesia for medical self-operations (characters with no pain feeling mutations or sensory dulling CBM should be excluded, of course). Local anesthesia should be suitable for only the simplest of the CBMs, and general anesthesia is too seriously affecting your consciousness to make self-installation viable.

All of your examples (like slime, more than two hands etc) wasn't covered by the manual installation either. The problem of CBMs interacting with mutations is a huge one, and is out of scope of the question of this issue. If we decide to remove manual installation by default, we always could permit to self-install for these edge cases later.

[Blank99]

Do you think they should be in every building in the game? How many locations do you think it would be not "too few"?

Once every two/three average towns, so even under bad luck the failed cyborg doesn't have to run too far from the initial revealed map to be able to save themselves. Alternatively, Labs spawn pretty reliably, so adding them there or the ability to turn dissectors into CBM installers would add a reliable but decently-guarded option. Labs are also chockful of failed cyborgs and you can start as one there, so it's a fluff-compliant solution. There's also the concern of Hulks bringing down buildings by the time you have the CBMs you want to install. In general, even high level CBM installing shouldn't be harder than high end deathmobile-making or high end mutations.

CBMs are not for early-game. Early-game player just don't have enough skills to reliably install bionics, most likely won't find anesthesia etc. Mid-game player would surely find one or more hospitals and is able to clean it. I'm not seeing any problem for mid-game player here.

Several CBM are pretty much low level crap that are barely useful in the early game at most, several starting professions require early access to CBM removal or are set up so you could make early installs easily. Things introduced in these changes like the reliance on anesthesia are problematic with these, so I'd rather have alternatives. I have no problem with alternatives being higher risk or limited in some way.

This rule of thumb should be taken into account AFTER deciding how to deal with the need of some sort of anesthesia for medical self-operations (characters with no pain feeling mutations or sensory dulling CBM should be excluded, of course).

Agreed, tho with the caveat that NPCs with decent ranks in the relevant skills should also count as an alternative.

All of your examples (like slime, more than two hands etc) wasn't covered by the manual installation either. The problem of CBMs interacting with mutations is a huge one, and is out of scope of the question of this issue. If we decide to remove manual installation by default, we always could permit to self-install for these edge cases later.

This is more of a tangent to the manual installation discussion, but while what we have doesn't account for these modifications, it doesn't restrict things except for anesthesia either. Allowing too much is less frustration-inducing for the player than allowing too little.

All the exceptions don't need to be added from the start, but they should still be part of the design outline. Designing new restrictions for the system without thought for existing body modifications and then adding later the exceptions would lend itself to them being added as patches and hacks, rather than arriving at a more elegant and extension-friendly solution from the get go.

[TechyBen]

The "broken cyborg" problem could be averted by a non-surgical option to "nullify" the leaky/sparky/faulty CMBs. It would only turn them into CMBs that do nothing... so improving survival rate, but still needing a auto-doc to fully remove.

[nexusmrsep]

A side idea that came to my mind - it's difficult (if not impossible) to do a self-instalation, but with anesthesia kit and good first-aid skill, you can perhaps manualy install bionics on willing NPC's?

[ZhilkinSerg]

with anesthesia kit and good first-aid skill, you can perhaps manualy install bionics on willing NPC's?

With a long rope on unwilling too.

[kevingranade]

I feel like I need to reiterate this, because it seems to have been overlooked:

in the main game your options are autodoc or a npc doctor (or another TBD third party).

The context of the discussion around when to allow self-installation is what a mod should allow, with default settings the answer is "never".

it concerns me that nobody is making allowances for non-regular-human characters,

This is normal, it's up to people who are maintaining mutations to propose and make changes to integrate mutations with surgery.

Once every two/three average towns, so even under bad luck the failed cyborg doesn't have to run too far from the initial revealed map to be able to save themselves.

We're not going to guarantee that, "if you search x towns you'll find the thing you're looking for", just like we don't guarantee that really bad day is survivable or that it's possible to escape from a prison or lab. If you don't like your odds, don't start as a failed cyborg.

Agreed, tho with the caveat that NPCs with decent ranks in the relevant skills should also count as an alternative.

This is about self-installation. Having a NPC do it is perfectly fine, though at the moment it is only supported for mission-related NPCs.

Allowing too much is less frustration-inducing for the player than allowing too little.

The way we are doing it is very intentional, if we start out more restrictive, then adding features is acceptable. If we make it permissive to start with we have to argue and justify every step of the way (see threads like this for example).

a non-surgical option to "nullify" the leaky/sparky/faulty CMBs.

Good idea, I'm in favor.

with anesthesia kit and good first-aid skill, you can perhaps manualy install bionics on willing NPC's?

Certainly.

[Blank99]

We're not going to guarantee that, "if you search x towns you'll find the thing you're looking for", just like we don't guarantee that really bad day is survivable or that it's possible to escape from a prison or lab. If you don't like your odds, don't start as a failed cyborg.

It's not about guaranteeing it, that's plain unlikely with the way mapgen works now, it's about what is likely. There's no guarantee that the lab will not generate you in a room where the only exit is a room with a turret, for example, but it is, in general, unlikely to happen, you'll start a few dozen lab starts before ever seeing that or a case where the surface is not reachable. Upping the number of potential autodoc places, toying with the spawning possibilities of these places, or adding one that appears with considerable regularity but in exchange is more protected would move the failed cyborg situation towards 'likely to be technically possible'. Alternatively, letting the failed cyborg patch those failed bionics in some way so they don't kill them even if they can't remove them would achieve the same goal.

There's no guarante that some other aspect of the game won't screw the player over, or that they fall in the one in a hundred chance, but it at least stops being "start-scum until a viable map is generated".

This is about self-installation. Having a NPC do it is perfectly fine, though at the moment it is only supported for mission-related NPCs.

I'm not talking about perfectly or a dedicated NPC, I'm talking about toying with 'self installation' to check for regular NPC helpers on it's code that decides whether you can or cannot self-install something, and then using their skill level, either alone or together with the player's depending on the situation, to decide your chances of success.

Hell, combine it with the 'install on willing NPCs' idea and you could cultivate a mad doctor NPC by having them around when manually installing CBMs, thus making them practice their skills on 'volunteers', before being confident enough to let them put you under the knife.

[kevingranade]

I'm not talking about perfectly or a dedicated NPC, I'm talking about toying with 'self installation' to check for regular NPC helpers on it's code that decides whether you can or cannot self-install something, and then using their skill level, either alone or together with the player's depending on the situation, to decide your chances of success.

in the main game your options are autodoc or a npc doctor (or another TBD third party).

[TechyBen]

Yeah, for now the self instal is going to have to be demoted to mod status if ever.

I wonder about those options (CMB vending machines where you place arms/head in for a simple CMB install :dagger: ). But that is for another thread...

As Kevin mentioned. An option for "tinkering" (or whatever we label it as) to fix broken CMBs can be added to give options to the cyborg character starts. These quick fixes won't be as simple or complete as an autodoc, but would give you an option for survival until you find one (should city gen make it take 100 days etc to find).

Something like a makeshift anesthetic kit (+ possibly a dead bionic)+ skills + tools = turning "leaky/sparky/noisey" CMB into "broken". Turning it from a near death dealing CMB to a simple debuf/stat changing CMB. The debuf "broken" CMB would still need an autodoc to remove. But would be permanently or temporarily prevented from leaking/sparking/rattling.

This could also offer mod routes for swappable CMBs in the future (swappable sockets/slots if already fitted, finger pick for finger lighter, night vision for heat vision swaps etc). While also not changing the limit of installs requiring autodocs or NPC docs.

(At least I hope my idea would work that way. As said, I'm just looking to tackle the change to game mechanics of cyborg starts, that the Autodoc causes. While not touching the balance of CMB installs suggested above.)

[Night-Pryanik]

I think I'll try to add either a new private bionic clinic or another variant of doctor's office with an autodoc. I hope this (alongside with three other already implemented autodoc spawn locations) could satisfy those who thinks that autodoc is too hard to find. I also planned to add another location for autodoc to spawn in labs, but I prefer to wait until #24114 is finished and merged.

[CoroNaut]

Is there any thought given to making the autodoc a vehicle mountable item? I would like to be able to have easy access in the late game. If it's a multi-tile structure then it will reinforce the idea that it would be very difficult to rebuild it.

[Night-Pryanik]

It shouldn't be too difficult to add a deconstruction recipe for both autodoc and its couch and then add a recipe to mount it as a vehicle part with a very high skills requirements, say, 8 or 9 electronics and as much mechanics.

[TechyBen]

Is there any thought given to making the autodoc a vehicle mountable item? I would like to be able to have easy access in the late game. If it's a multi-tile structure then it will reinforce the idea that it would be very difficult to rebuild it.

Personally, if I'm gonna get that far late game I'm going to just RP it and delete it from the hospital, and cheat it into the base/area I'm in to say the char "dragged" it across. ;)

[FulcrumA]

I don't think deconstruction/construction of autodoc should require high mechanics skill. It seems a rather straightforward thing compared to more advanced parts we already have. I'd imagine certain computers/first aid skill to operate it but if someone found one, scavenging and hooking it up elsewhere should be doable with basic mechanics/electronics skill.

If we'd consider it, building one from nearly scratch should be based on relatively high electronics and considerafle first aid too (at this point though, I have to nitpick that "first aid" seems to be a rather unfitting name for what seems to be including quite specialistic medicine knowledge).

[Firestorm01X2]

Anesthesia kit should be craftable with enough skills. And it should not be hard. Probably diffuculty 3. Main problem should come from necessity of finding (or making) certain drugs for craft.

Adding Anesthesia kit recepie should be first step. Then we should remove manual installation since it is no option anyway.

After that sytem should be sabilized to normal playable state. Craftable autodoc and its car part version may come along the way. Other things- later.

Because of 0.D.

[papersplease]

@Firestorm01X2 That's a matter of what one wants from the CBM progression. Uncraftable and rare anesthetics = every implant is valuable, installation rate is fairly limited; but CBM installation is not easily available at the start. Anesthetics craftable from common components = installation rate is essentially unlimited as one can find any existing drugs in arbitrary quantities already; but CBMs become available at the start. The second variant isn't very good I guess, because it incentivizes players to hoard CBMs and install them in packs.

IMO the anesthetic or the components should be approximately as rare as a stethoscope, regardless of being craftable, and installation should also require some skills. If craftable, making one shot should take a long time, probably several hours. That way the player will be able to smoothly progress through different tier CBMs from the start.

[Firestorm01X2]

@papersplease

That's a matter of what one wants from the CBM progression. Uncraftable and rare anesthetics = every implant is valuable, installation rate is fairly limited;

At this rate we can easily remove some relatively useless bionics.

Also uncraftable and rare anesthetics is not particulary realistic especially if we took into account what player able to craft in other areas.

Also we already have CBM slots for limitation. It is just was disabled as far as I know. Let's use that. But later.

IMO the anesthetic or the components should be approximately as rare as a stethoscope, regardless of being craftable, and installation should also require some skills.

This way making bionic

approximately as rare as a stethoscope

is much easier.

Having a lot of CBM modules and haven't been able to install that because of one rare item is even sounds strange.

[Night-Pryanik]

if we took into account what player able to craft in other areas.

We shouldn't take that into account.

Also we already have CBM slots for limitation as far as I know. Let's use that.

CBM slots system is an unfinished feature, so before using it for any means it should be finished first.

[Firestorm01X2]

We shouldn't take that into account.

Then we should do sanity check. I bet that it is possible to create anastetics IRL using proper meds and skills.

I don't expect Anesthesia kit be compeletely special for CBM installation. It should be same as "usual" anesthesia.

[nexusmrsep]

By proffesional pharmaceutical companies, not by anesthesiologists in their basement chem labs Breaking Bad style.

[Firestorm01X2]

By proffesional pharmaceutical companies, not by anesthesiologists in their basement...

Don't even start on that. We are VERY far away from that idea.

Just look at the crafting list. Player does magic for a lot of things starting from welding glasses. At this rate we should remove at least 50% of crafting list.

[papersplease]

@Firestorm01X2 I concur. My point was that autodocs is also a mechanic to de-incentivize the current degraded behavior of hoarding CBMs and installing them in packs, instantly progressing from a human to an endgame cyborg without anything in between. Making CBMs themselves rare and fixing the slots would do the trick as well I guess. The only issue I have with this is CBM separation by tiers; giving the most advanced ones before the basic ones might not be the best idea.

@nexusmrsep That's why proper autodoc usage should require corresponding skills, no?

[Night-Pryanik]

Using autodoc require way less skills than making anesthetics. High levels in first aid (as an substitute for knowledge of human anatomy and physiology) and cooking (as chemistry), perhaps 7.

[nexusmrsep]

What I want to say is there are chems that you would not get at your garage even if you tried, or made unclear version after which you just might not wake up ever. "Magic" here and there is not a reason for magic in other places, aspecialy if balancing reasons come to effect.

[Firestorm01X2]

What I want to say is there are chems that you would not get at your garage even if you tried, or made unclear version after which you just might not wake up ever.

I can say same things about craftable mutagens. But somehow we can live with that. http://cdda.chezzo.com/mutagen/recipes/CC_CHEM

[nexusmrsep]

Of course we can live with that. Its an scifi thing, with no reference to RL. You wanna talk about comparisons about laser rifles and rifles? Possible only by lore, not by IRL referencing.