Autodoc software modules are needed

[Firestorm01X2]

Describe the bug
Old chances to install or uninstall CBMs were designed around idea of player able to install CBMs with hands. But now it is changed.

Currently player uses special device aks Autodoc. But at the same time skill requirment basically remain the same.

In addtion player has to bring anastetic kits.

Over all this shifts makes CBM instalation much harder than it was before.

Also fact of using Autodoc does not reflect on install chances.

Something has to be done.

To Reproduce
Steps to reproduce the behavior: Try to install CBM

CBM_chance.xlsx

Expected behavior

Actual behavior

Ways to solve

1 ) Autodoc software modules
https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/pull/22877#issuecomment-362961224

kevingranade: Player acquires a program for installing a specific CBM (i.e. on a USB stick). This would have an almost 0 chance of bad outcomes. This also gives low-int characters a chance of installing, the requirements to just load the software should be very easy. Players would find these in lab databases, loaded into autodocs, or perhaps rarely elsewhere on USB sticks. This might have qualifications for when it will work, such as not working if the targeted body part is mutated. It will still be safe, but it will refuse to work.

All CBMs have difficulty associeted with it. Idea of creating software USB sticks that contains software for fully automated CMB installation of certain difficulty.

For example let's introduce 3 types of USB sticks

1) For installation of civillian CBMS (difficulty 4 and below). Should be very common. 2) For installation of heavy duty CMBS (difficulty 8 and below.). Should be found in medical locations. 2) For installation of military CMBS (difficulty 15 and below.) Should be found in military locations or labs.

If player has this stick into into inventory (or somewhere around) then CMB installation of supported difficulty will be 100% guaranteed.

Likely slight rebalance of CBM diffulty stats are required.

I have to note that is has not to be full on new Autodoc programming system. Software USB sticks can just checked for presence like anesthetic kits.

Basic idea where to start can be found here: https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/pull/27623

PROS +Explainable solution. CONS -Adding new system to solve balance problem.

2 ) Increase chances of CBM installation using autodocs
Change installation chances to reflect using of autodoc. We are pretending that software already there and simplify installation a lot. PROS +Simple soulution CONS -Probably too straightforward.

3 ) Making installation of CMBs using autodoc 100% success
We are pretending that software already make installation process safe. PROS +Simpliest solution CONS -Completely neglects CBM installation failures and failure bionic system. -Probably too straightforward.

[Night-Pryanik]

Also fact of using Autodoc does not reflect on install chances.

I don't get it. Care to explain?

With low skills player basically unable to install CBMs without huge risk.

As I said here (https://www.reddit.com/r/cataclysmdda/comments/aet3jp/autodocs_literally_make_no_sense_gameplay_and/edvpl08/), Power Storage CBM could be installed with a fairly high chance of success even by a complete noob with 2 in first aid, computers and electronics and default 8 Intelligence.

If player has this stick into into inventory (or aroun player) than CMB installation of supported difficulty will be 100% guaranteed.

I'm against this. At least for the proposed three grades of software modules. That will make bionic installation MUCH easier, even compared to the old manual-installation system. Finding military-grade software module would almost mean "won the game", as the only requirement for bionic installation would be only anesthetics.

I'm in much more favor of "per-bionic" software module system. This way one can achieve 100% chance of success of installation only for the CBM for which this module was designed. Thus finding "Power Storage CBM software module", for example, won't affect chances of success for installation of Time Dilation CBM.

[Firestorm01X2]

I don't get it. Care to explain?

Installation chances was balanced around the fact of restricting CBM installation with skills. It is from old pre Autodoc changes. Currently there is additional restrictions but chances of failure are old.

I'm in much more favor of "per-bionic" software module system.

It overcompicates whole system. Each CMB will have own software module - it is just double items.

I understand what are you planned to achieve with limited anastec kits but overall carefull player can just hoard it, raise skills to the hight and install everything in one try. Just like it was before, but later.

Thus finding "Power Storage CBM software module", for example, won't affect chances of success for installation of Time Dilation CBM.

Actually 1 ) Autodoc software modules satisfies that. Only basic USB software stick will be common. Highest tiers of software should be found in restricted locations.

I'm against this. At least for the proposed three grades of software modules.

As I said. CBM installation diffuculty probably should be changed. Likely it should be grouped around "Simple", "Civilian duty", "Military", "Experimental". And software modules can satisfy those classes.

[Night-Pryanik]

Currently there is additional restrictions but chances of failure are old.

No, they ain't. The skills required for installation are different, and their influence on the process is different.

As I said. CBM installation diffuculty probably should be changed. Likely it should be grouped around "Simple", "Civilian duty", "Military", "Experimental".

And even that changes the current situation to "Find higher-grade software module once - no need to worry about bionic installation for the rest of the game". I don't like this. For me it ruins the balance (and thrill) of bionics installation.

If software modules are to be added, I'd prefer some percentage bonuses to the bionic installation chance of success instead of a 100% chance of success. For example, module from the "Simple" group could add 90% bonus to installation of difficulty 1 (like Power Storage) CBMs, 50% to difficulty 2 CBMs, and so forth. Module from the "Civilian" group could add the same 90% for difficulty 1 CBMs, 80% for difficulty 2 CBMs, and so forth. Of course, all numbers here are just examples.

This way module even from the "Experimental" group could only add a big bonus to high-tier CBMs, and not a guaranteed 100% chance of success.

[Firestorm01X2]

No, they ain't. The skills required for installation are different, and their influence on the process is different.

Skills are different. Formula is the same:

pl_skill = int_cur                                  * 4 +
                   get_skill_level( most_important_skill )  * 4 +
                   get_skill_level( important_skill )       * 3 +
                   get_skill_level( least_important_skill ) * 1;

if( autodoc ) {
        adjusted_skill = installer.bionics_adjusted_skill( skilll_firstaid,
                         skilll_computer,
                         skilll_electronics,
                         skill_level );
    } else {
        adjusted_skill = installer.bionics_adjusted_skill( skilll_electronics,
                         skilll_firstaid,
                         skilll_mechanics,
                         skill_level );
    }

If software modules are to be added, I'd prefer some percentage bonuses to the bionic installation chance of success instead of a 100% chance of success.

Actually I've planned to do it exaclty that way.

But it was shot down by Kevin. https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/pull/27623

https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/pull/27623#issuecomment-454165394

It looks like you're having the software act as a general-purpose bonus to success of the activity, which makes no sense in the context of the player programming the autodoc for a specific procedure.

And I am still wondering, why it is

makes no sense in the context of the player programming the autodoc for a specific procedure.

Since old CBM installtion are chance based.

[Night-Pryanik]

Possible explanation: higher-tier software modules are enhanced diagnosis (more info could be read from sensors, more reliable data concerning the patient could be built from this info) and prediction (better choice of CBM placement in the body) programs, superior to the ones installed in basic autodoc, that improve overall autodoc performance by reducing the chance to fail the installation.

Maybe we don't need to add the software modules, but instead the hardware modules? Upgrading the basic autodoc with some better modules with surely reduce the chance to fail.

[nexusmrsep]

If a CBM is a self contained all-in-one packet, as it is said to be, then why is it not equipped with a relevant software in the first place? My guess here would be: it is. Thus either software packs would have to be some high grade military tech unknown to general public for obvious reasons, or some bootleg hack tools of some home-brew cyberpunk hacker-medics, that try to invent something better on the fly. The second option would suggest that you may also find bonkers soft, that is worse then original, or even a trap software that will mess you up.

Generally I don't like the idea of software for CBM's. The logic doesn't click to me. As I said in a different thread, rather then coding the machine, I believe the whole autodoc setup is rather a human operated pre-surgery diagnostic and adjustment process. Imagine same derma-armor installed on a man versus same installation on a woman - it needs personal settings to be done first. The progression of difficulty is obvious as it comes to more and more invasive operations, with bionic systems that either augment or replace vital senses, organs, or in general create a new quality that has to be linked and synced with a living organism. Consider the difference between following surgeries: removing an ingrowing toenail, appendix removal in appendicitis, and on the high end: cardio & neurosurgery. If those operations require different levels of skill and preparations, than there is no reason why there should there not be a difference between installing a Power Storage CBM and a Cerebral Booster CBM, etc. No software would help in this.

Instead, I think bionic slots should be implemented ASAP. It's a ready PR, that should be put in its place (merged) now instead of waiting for the illusory milestone of 0.D With them in place the whole CBM system would achieve a new balance, that might be then tweaked by perhaps loosening other constrains that were placed for balance only.

[kevingranade]

Old chances to install or uninstall CBMs were designed around idea of player able to install CBMs with hands. But now it is changed.

Old vs new is irrelevant, it doesn't matter how hard it used to be, only how hard it is now.

With low skills player basically unable to install CBMs without huge risk.

You need to substantiate this, have you tested it? Even if you're right, this needs a lot more detail. If the problem is just failure rate, the simplest solution is just adjusting that failure rate instead of adding new features.

You need to outline the current failure rates and what you expect those failure rates to be, because it's unclear if there is a problem and the extent to which there is a problem.

For example let's introduce 3 types of USB sticks

This is a hard no. You even quoted me, but missed the point, I said "Player acquires a program for installing a specific CBM (i.e. on a USB stick)." A SPECIFIC CBM. Not whole categories of CBMs such that they need to just find three widgets and then they're done forever.

I could see some fairly broad categories among the very common CBMs all getting packed together, but for any advanced CBM, it would be one installer per CBM.

Player able to find some kind of way that automates process of installation of such simple CBM without chance to failure. Or with almost zero chance to failure.

This is already the case, the NPC in the farm settlement will install CBMs for you.

Maybe we don't need to add the software modules, but instead the hardware modules? Upgrading the basic autodoc with some better modules with surely reduce the chance to fail.

I feel like if it needs new hardware modules, they'd mostly be hard blockers on installation, not just a bump to install chance.

[Firestorm01X2]

This is already the case, the NPC in the farm settlement will install CBMs for you.

NPCs are disabled by default. New player wouldn't even seen them without tweaking default settings.

[Night-Pryanik]

If a CBM is a self contained all-in-one packet, as it is said to be

It is not. CBM as all-in-one kit is purely fanon, as it wasn't ever described as such. CBM kit contain just bionic designed to be installed only by a skilled doctor (or on a pre-configured autodoc), and little of else.

[Night-Pryanik]

I feel like if it needs new hardware modules, they'd mostly be hard blockers on installation, not just a bump to install chance.

I like the idea more and more. This way we could even allow the long-requested feature of dismantling an autodoc in some distant location and assemble it in some comfortable place.

[Firestorm01X2]

@nexusmrsep

Instead, I think bionic slots should be implemented ASAP.

Ok. But what to do next?

[Firestorm01X2]

This is a hard no. You even quoted me, but missed the point, I said "Player acquires a program for installing a specific CBM (i.e. on a USB stick)." A SPECIFIC CBM. Not whole categories of CBMs such that they need to just find three widgets and then they're done forever. I feel like if it needs new hardware modules, they'd mostly be hard blockers on installation, not just a bump to install chance.

Ok. It may works. Especially I like 100% sucess chance.

But: Occam's razor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor

Occam's razor is the problem-solving principle that essentially states that simpler solutions are more likely to be correct than complex ones.

If we pretend that 1) CBMs already contains software 2) CBMs should be twice as rare 3) Chance to install should be higher

then result roughly will be the same.

Is it really worth it then? Especially counting the fact that player need to install most CBMs only once.

Probably such sofware/hardware modules should support at least 3 CBMs or it will be just overkill (look Occam's razor).

[Firestorm01X2]

@Night-Pryanik @kevingranade @nexusmrsep

Alternate idea: 1) Enable CBM slots. 2) Make installation much easier. 3) Make some really powerfull CBMs harder to find.

This way will tempted to constantly switch CBMs, adapting to the current situation. Also player can start to do it early with simple CBMs.

[Amoebka]

3 USB sticks is too little, one per CBM is too many, in my humble opinion. What about adding USBs based on already existing bionic professions? For example, an "Industrial Cyborg Software Pack" can include installation guides (100% success with autodoc, still need bionic itself and anesthetic) for all CBMs Industrial Cyborg starts with, "Bionic Firefighter Pack" - all CBMs Bionic Firefighter starts with, etc. Would make a lot of sense too, after all these professions appear to be fairly common in 2050, and their bionic outfits would be standartized. Natually, stuff like Bionic Assassin or Broken Cyborg won't have USB sticks. There will be quite a lot of overlap, but I think that's fine? Bionics that aren't found in any profession can be covered by their own unique USBs (especially something experimental like Time Dilation).

[SirPendrak]

Definitely yes for CBM slots, but bring it with a mod that disables limits for peps who like no limits.
Grouped pendrives for some low lvl CBMs and single ones for advanced seems reasonable, could help new characters, and become another trophy hunt for late characters. Might be a little too RNG to actually affect gameplay much, but its better than nothing. And there should be a way to download software to E-ink tablet. And maybe CBM software should not only be found on pendrives, but also sd-cards and computers in hospitals/labs/bunkers etc. Maybe rarerly in other mundane places. People tend to have strange things in their personal data sometimes.

[Human-Shield]

CBMs should just be separated into skin level ones and deep tissue ones. Slapping on skin level installed bits would be doable with programming an autodoc.

But I don't see how someone could program a machine to work on their own organs without first finding a MRI type body scanner and getting a USB with their complete 3D body scan of where their organs are.

Do autodocs have MRI scanners built in?

I don't even think CBM power is well explained, it is rechargeable batteries or radioactive super batteries (shouldn't be rechargeable).

[Night-Pryanik]

Do autodocs have MRI scanners built in?

Sort of. Some scanners are built-in for sure.

[Firestorm01X2]

Let's start with this: https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/pull/27780

It can be used as balance tool. Now we can easier CBM installation and player still will be thinking what to install and when to install it.

Can I soften CBM installation skill requrments there?

[Night-Pryanik]

Can I soften CBM installation skill requrments there?

No. It should be done in a separate PR.

Furthermore, please do tell why do you think there is a need for softer requirements. With usual "expected vs. actual" comparison, numbers, calculations etc.

[Firestorm01X2]

Furthermore, please do tell why do you think there is a need for softer requirements. With usual "expected vs. actual" comparison, numbers, calculations etc.

To balance new restriction. Guranteed way to install CBMS are big TODO for now.

With slot system player should constantly tweak himself to fit current needs. It will be hard until raising skills.

[nexusmrsep]

Ok. But what to do next? Alternate idea: (...)

There are few competing concepts with CBM's high risk - high reward balance:

• benefits
• rarity
• risks
• realism

As we all know benefits from CBMs are huge. Installing a few is either the endgame itself, as in "no more incentive", as you get near-invincible, or at least game changing - you change the play-style to utilize the maximum from what you have installed.

This is offset by the rarity - which is not as terrible as it seems as long as you keep a scalpel and raid a few labs. The rarity of the anesthetic kits is far more limiting. Proof: at least few of latest Vormithrax runs shows that you can get more CBMs that you can install. It's not a bad concept in itself for balancing reasons, and it absolutely satisfies the realism factor, but personally I'd rather see bionic slots as a limiting factor here. Why? Because with bionic slots you'd need to specialize, so potential abundance of CBM's would not thwart balance, but would be even somewhat desired (in reasonable boundaries). You wouldn't be able to install them all anyway. This in fact may even reduce the need for anesthesia kits to be so rare.

As for risks, I believe that they create lot of fun in this game. Going towards "just find CBM and you're in the clear", is in my opinion watering down the challenge. There is no controversy in mutations being risky per RNG factor, so I seriously don't understand what is so controversial in valuable CBMs in being risky per installation? For one this is great as per realism factor, for the medical reasons I stated before. Secondly it encourages exploration, preparation and taking other risks, with a great reward at hand. Third thing: failure can itself become a game challenge. This drives the game-play forward. I do understand that it might not be seen as desired from a player's perspective, but its realistic in a sense that you don't control everything that happens in life, and are often forced off the desired path to circumvent the problems. That said, perhaps it would be beneficial to think of reducing the requirements for sorting out the negative effects of bad installations, so risk won't be so severe or at least reversible with effort. Like for example introducing "ordinary" CBM prosthetic implants of limbs, eyes, etc. Lost your arm due to installation? Replace it with a robotic limb. Broken leg? Robotic leg never breaks, but needs to repaired when damaged. (Seems that is an interesting idea on it's own.)

As for realism (setting aside the CBMs themselves as they fall under a self-explanatory S-F theme):

• Self installation is a no go for me. Using autodoc and NPC's is absolutely real. You'd barely be able to sew your own lacerated skin, so precise operation of own organs are absurd.
• Bionic slot system is a must. Human body is not a balloon to stick as much inside as you possibly can.
• Anesthesia fits well with realism, but might have become a choking collar because of rarity

And finally the problem of skills used in installation. Or rather problems. One is that first-aid skills is one of the depreciated and less versatile skills. Justice calls for it being applied somewhere, and medical aspects of CBM installations are a great place where it can shine. Its a bit less true for electronics/computers since they lot more areas of effect. Second is that those skills are used in determining success of installation. That is not bad if you think about the fact that the risk itself is desired, and that binary "0 or 1" , "true or false" model is bad. And that also pushes for actions - player wants to hone those skills to improve chances, and that drives game-play.

That is the reason why the complete removal of the skill content in favor of finding dedicated software for installation is not appealing to me.. It might perhaps be good as as suplement - so you either use skills to program the autodoc OR use CBM-specific soft to program the autodoc.

This however is a risk in itself. CBMs would become a very complicated system. You'd need too many things to "click" together at once (find CBM -> find autodoc -> find anesthesia -> find soft ). If RNG fails at each stage - you are screwed, and I didn't even mention slots at this point.

In conclusion I'd see it as following:

1. Enable CBM slots.
2. Keep current CBM availability.
3. Make anesthesia easier to get (5 per stack instead of 3 perhaps?) as slots balance the top end of the spectrum.
4. Keep skill requirements for the installation. Use USB & SD cards medical soft as alternative for skill requirement, so you use either option. Use CBM-specific soft only for that purpose. Double it's function as a blueprint for nano-fabricator for CBM production.

[Firestorm01X2]

Make anesthesia easier to get (5 per stack instead of 3 perhaps?) as slots balance the top end of the spectrum.

This is make sense now.

[Firestorm01X2]

Enable CBM slots.

https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/pull/27780

Make anesthesia easier to get (5 per stack instead of 3 perhaps?) as slots balance the top end of the spectrum.

https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/pull/27784

[kevingranade]

There is no alternate idea, you need to do this:

You need to outline the current failure rates and what you expect those failure rates to be, because it's unclear if there is a problem and the extent to which there is a problem.

Before you do anything else in this area.

[Firestorm01X2]

@kevingranade

You need to outline the current failure rates and what you expect those failure rates to be, because it's unclear if there is a problem and the extent to which there is a problem. Before you do anything else in this area.

Maybe it is not even needed anymore. Look at the @nexusmrsep answer: https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/issues/27750#issuecomment-456498648

His ideas looks very solid. This way failure rate can be as it is now. There is only approval needed.

[Firestorm01X2]

Keep skill requirements for the installation. Use USB & SD cards medical soft as alternative for skill requirement, so you use either option. Use CBM-specific soft only for that purpose. Double it's function as a blueprint for nano-fabricator for CBM production.

So I imagine this USB sticks, like:

[
{
    "abstract": "bionic_software_general",
    "type": "BIONIC_SOFTWARE",
    "category": "bionics",
    "name": "abstract bionic software module",
    "weight": 2041,
    "volume": 10,
    "bashing": 8,
    "material": [ "steel", "plastic" ],
    "symbol": ":",
    "color": "yellow",
    "flags": [ "CBM_SOFTWARE" ]
  },

{
    "id": "bio_power_storage_software",
    "copy-from": "bionic_software_general",
    "type": "BIONIC_SOFTWARE",
    "name": "Bionic Power Source software",
    "description": "This USB drive contains pre-trained neuronal network data for safe installing of various power banks",
    "price": 9000,
    "bionic_ids": [ "bio_power_storage", "bio_power_storage_mkII" ]
  },

{
    "id": "bio_targeting_software",
    "copy-from": "bionic_software_general",
    "type": "BIONIC_SOFTWARE",
    "name": "Targeting System CBM software",
    "description": "This USB drive contains pre-trained neuronal network data for installing hight quality bionic targeting computer",
    "price": 9000,
    "bionic_ids": [ "bio_targeting" ]
  },

{
    "id": "bio_leaky_software",
    "copy-from": "bionic_software_general",
    "type": "BIONIC_SOFTWARE",
    "name": "Emergency leaky bionic removal software",
    "description": "This USB drive contains pre-trained neuronal network data for emergency removal of leaky bionics.",
    "price": 9000,
    "bionic_ids": [ "bio_leaky" ]
  },
...
]

This way it can be reconfigured via JSON in any way.

This USB sticks can be checked before installation/unistallation. And if present - set chance to install on maximum. In addition some text messages like "You are installing usb drive into autdoc..." can be added. Check on presense can be done in Cataclysm-DDA\src\iexamine.cpp. Just like for Anastetic kits.

Storring this data on SD card? I don't know. It will likely simply don't fit on SD card. CBM sofware usb drives may contain terrabytes of data for neuronal network for installing CBM on people with various ages, weights, genetical diseses. I bet this is hell a lot of data to store.

[Fris0uman]

Use USB & SD cards medical soft as alternative for skill requirement, so you use either option

Why would pre-programmed surgery on usb even exist in the first place ? I mean aside from any balance concern. The auto-docs are machines operated by trained professional, if pre-programmed settings exists they are already in the machine not laying around on flash drives. Unless they are some weird atempt at making basement surgery more successfull ... That said, the idea of bootleg auto-doc settings that might help you OR mess you up even more seems pretty fun, it would not affect balance too much as there is still RNG in it. It could work like mushroom used to : they all look the same but if you have enought skill you can identify the bad ones. It doesn't solve anything regarding CBM balance and all but it makes more sense as why those usb exists.

[Firestorm01X2]

Why would pre-programmed surgery on usb even exist in the first place ?

It can. Obviously. But I personally have no idea on how to implement that. Aside from simple spawning USB drives near some Autodocs. It sounds much more simple.

It could work like mushroom used to : they all look the same but if you have enought skill you can identify the bad ones. It doesn't solve anything regarding CBM balance and all but it makes more sense as why those usb exists.

This will definetely make things harder to implement. Much harder. You even recommended to add completely new mechanic of identification.

[Fris0uman]

I mostly wanted to point out that, IMO, the idea of auto-doc sofware modules in itself doesn't make much sense. Because I'm pretty sure that pre-made settings on a usb stick would not be a thing for something as high tech as the autodoc. I can't even find pre made settings for a 3D printer irl, never mind for a robotic surgery assistant.

[kevingranade]

Maybe it is not even needed anymore.

Yes, it is still needed, I'm closing this issue until you provide that information.

Why would pre-programmed surgery on usb even exist in the first place ?

From the original suggestion:

Players would find these in lab databases, loaded into autodocs, or perhaps rarely elsewhere on USB sticks.

Having them loaded on USB sticks was the last option listed, but it has been selected in this issue as the only option, probably because it is much easier to impliment.

[Firestorm01X2]

@kevingranade

Here is how it is now:

Here is how approximately it should be in account to existance of autodoc:

[Firestorm01X2]

"How it should be" - debatable. Probably bonus is too extreme. But player should not be best Autodoc specialist in the world to reliable install all CBMs.

But look at "Now".

Max skill player with about average intellect has chance to istall harderst CBM of 65%. I mean- really? You are looking for Autodoc, anastetic kits, raising your skills o the max and get this. And you are the world class specialist with max skills. 65%. Advanced microreactor CBM.

And what abount Monomolecular Blade CBM. 79% with max skills. Again - world class specialist.

Excel file attached. CBM_chance.xlsx

[Night-Pryanik]

The formula absolutely has to be corrected: absolutely noob character with zero levels in all three required skills gets a whooping 50% chance to successfully configure autodoc to install bionic (even the low-level like Power Storage CBM)? I'd say that's just improbable. And you're saying

With low skills player basically unable to install CBMs without huge risk.

?

But player should not be best Autodoc specialist in the world to reliable install all CBMs.

Right the opposite. Only the best specialists should be able to configure the autodoc so it can reliably install higher-level CBMs.

[Firestorm01X2]

If anyone find any mistake in calculations- feel free to show me.

[Firestorm01X2]

Right the opposite. Only the best specialists should be able to configure the autodoc so it can reliably install higher-level CBMs.

Currently this rule is broken. Table indicates that. 70% is not reliable chance for max skill character with intellect of 10.

Only the best specialists should be able to configure the autodoc so it can reliably install higher-level CBMs.

So to create on bionic soldier army needs to waste a lot of CBMs? And aslo you need the best specialist for that?

Bio targeting has difficulty 5. Head bio armor has diffculty 5. So it is 88% at best. For one of the best specialists in the world. Average specialist gets 73%. Poor soldiers. And that is not even highly experimental CBMs.

Is it attached to game lore in some way? I bet it is not. Is not CBMs becoming common things by game lore? Where did you get that then?

[Firestorm01X2]

Alternative scaling:

CBM_chance.xlsx

This way with average skills player should be able to reliable install average difficult CBMs but not the most difficult.

[kevingranade]

@Firestorm01X2 my apologies, but you should probably just drop this, because the difference between our expectations is just too large. I don't see any possible way for us to find a common solution on this.

@Night-Pryanik Agreed, no-knowledge chance of successful install is way too high, it needs to be reigned in a great deal, I don't expect anything higher than a 20% success rate there. At the same time, I do think the requirements at the far upper range are a bit much, I'd expect 10 + 8/8/8 or so to be at least reaching 90% for up to difficulty 10 or so, though I'd buy that the operation to install things like wired reflexes should be absolutely ludicrous and not peak over 90% until you're an absolute virtuoso at everything involved.

A thought I had looking at this is giving the stats some context. Medical/first aid is an absolute must, and should maybe just tank your chances if you don't have it, regardless of the rest. Meanwhile computer and electronics can maybe be substituted for with int because there's a certain amount of "you can just figure it out" for programming the machine and setting up the cbm for installation.

So just a sketch, the install success chance is the min of the install chance for the three skills, and they're calculated differently:

1. First aid is dominant, it's basically determining your ability to plan the operation, so no matter how good you are at the others, it presents a cap on your chances of success.
2. Computers is your ability to actually input your planned operation into the system, if it doesn't meet the requirements, maybe you're a bit prone to mistakes and can't optimize the system as well. The required level is much lower than the nominal First Aid for a procedure, A First Aid 4 procedure might only require Computers 1. It might also contribute by making the manual process of entering the program faster the higher it is. At low levels int might completely stand in for computer success chance, but not speed. i.e. if you take your time you can get it done, but you're going to be slow.
3. Electronics is your ability to set up the machine and CBM for installation. This is almost routine for easy CBMs, but mistakes are costly in chance of risk. Again, it might only require Electronics 1 for optimal installs until you get to very difficult CBMs. IDK, I don't think it's necessary to change anything about skill handling, but it's nice to have a mental model of what's happening rather than just numbers.

I don't have any intention in following up on this any time soon, and Firestorm is so far off base it's not even worth discussing it, so unless you feel like picking it up I'm just going to leave this closed.

[Firestorm01X2]

Still data that I've bring worth separate issue.