Feral faction separate from Zombie faction

[ghost]

Is your feature request related to a problem? Please describe.

Ferals should be represented with their own Faction.

Ferals have been expanded more than maybe any other mob type recently and hopefully feral life will continue to become more... fleshed out.

Inspired from conversation in #58581 and #58607.

Solution you would like.

Create a new Faction for Ferals. This will be separate from the Zombie faction but functionally the same for now. The Zombie and Feral factions can be allied, and are viewed as the same faction from nearly all in those factions.

This is most helpful in classification and distinction for the player and gameplay.

Depending on how the feral discussion and lore evolves and how enemies are expanded in the future, this could be a useful separation.

Describe alternatives you have considered.

Possibility of Factions having branches or sub-factions. Where Feral can be a sub-class of the Zombie faction. This could also be useful but probably requires even more work. Not sure which is better long term.

Additional context

Trying to find all the relevant lore and official info on ferals but it seems a bit sparse still.

[toweroglass]

What would this functionally change?

[ghost]

Not much for now. Mostly nice for classification under the Factions menu, but also i think it is a distinction that should be made given how far ferals have come. Being lumped together made more sense when there were only a few kinds. But maybe i am the only one who thinks this should be done.

[toweroglass]

I just don't understand why the distinction is important when 100% of ferals are friendly to zombies in all circumstances.

Perhaps you are interpreting this as saying ferals ARE zombies like literally? it seems more as a way to hard code them to be friendly with one another. take the science faction for example which mixes robots, ferals and zombies.

[descan]

I'd lean towards this being a good idea (from a player perspective) IF, in the long-term, ferals continue to develop as monsters and as a distinct-but-allied faction. If ferals stay in-line with what they are now (basically zombies that you can't easily butcher), it would add a needless distinction, but if ferals continue to develop in the direction as in those conversations (feral nests, moving/marauding feral bands that loot, etc) then it would make sense.

So a year down the line, if ferals have developed in a distinct direction, this would be a good call. If they haven't? Then this would have been a bad move. (Of course, making this move might well encourage others to develop ferals into a distinct faction...)

(Obviously I can't speak from the coding perspective; what functionality is added by splitting them into separate factions, vs. what functionality is taken away/needs to be compensated for. If the answer is that it leans towards the added, whether that added functionality is worth the effort involved, however much that is, to add the change and maintain it.)

[ghost]

I do agree. I just haven't heard and discussion yet about technically making them a separate faction so i wanted to start it. The fact is, ferals are different. We talk about them like they are, we bash zombies to keep from resurrecting but not ferals. I personally think there are stronger reasons to make the distinction. Just because they are currently in the zombie faction and both fight together doesn't mean we should always classify Ferals as Zombies. Especially if they continue expanding and having a different focus from zombies.

Really we need some clearer answers from the highest devs about future plans for ferals. If the direction for ferals is different than standard zombies: possibly with how they will function, fight, congregate, travel, interact, or evolve, etc.. well it would be easier implementing the new faction sooner than later when they are more developed and we have more enemies to change over.

My personal take - i like the idea of ferals acting in packs or tribes. having central caves or hidouts in areas. blending in and fighting with zombies but possibly having different "goals" with some semblance of self-preservation. With the zombies becoming more mutant and armored over time, and at least some feral factions becoming more brutal but ...orderly of sorts? If not these, then some kind of difference would still be fun for gameplay.

i do like the idea of sub factions. or local factions still. There are the main factions for classification but local factions or groups can possibly develop unique behavior or vary from others.

[toweroglass]

ferals are humans and just like npcs they ressurect. if you haven't been bashing them you should.

edit: sorry, finished reading. I don't believe the lore has them being capable of being tribal and currently they are barely more sentient than zombies. they just haven't "died" yet.

[Gotdamnmiracle]

I don't think there's been any confirmation in the lore that they are "barely more sentient than zombies" and that there's been a lot of speculation about this just because they are implemented functionally as zombies that also can open doors and drop clean clothes. I think that this is a symptom of them being WIP rather than an end product.

[PatrikLundell]

The lore I've read indicate ferals are severely brain damaged and won't be able of any long term planning. It can also be noted that there are some zombies that actually CAN open doors (and I don't mean smash doors): it's an unpleasant surprise...

A more fruitful approach when it comes to "bands" of intelligent opponents would be mutant groups consisting of members of mutation lines that lean towards a "humans are just another prey" approach. However, Hells Raiders is a (under developed) faction that has such elements already.

[toweroglass]

I don't think there's been any confirmation in the lore that they are "barely more sentient than zombies"

I've seen devs respond to these same conversations where people proposed them being "tribal" and the consensus seems to be they are not capable of that. they've completely given into the blob and are all aggression. every indication is that they are still alive but have lost their "humanity".

several zombies can open doors. Zombie masters, zombie necromancers, zombie necro-boomers. Opening doors does not a not-zombie make in this game.

[fairyarmadillo]

Ferals are just zombies with extra steps. Putting them in their own faction would give people the wrong idea.

[anothersimulacrum]

This conversation would do well with a review of the design document. The Cognition after the Cataclysm section in particular.

[ghost]

I see, that goes much more in depth than https://cataclysmdda.org/lore-factions.html which just mentions "feral" once in passing. I had initially thought the ferals were merely crazed humans that managed to blend in with the zombies, but not realizing they were affected by the same condition just on a different level.

I think a well organized, in-game compendium for enemies and groups would help a lot, especially for newer players. We have the factions menu, but i think this can be more developed and clear. I think the distinctions of factions and subfactions could be useful, along with species, and maybe other groups or categorizations in the game. Current factions will continue to expand their rosters with new factions being added or fleshed out. Making sure we have a solid framework for how it is all organized and making it as adaptable as possible could go a long way.

I think we need to allow for two types of factions. The large main groups represented in the game, and sections of those groups or independant movements. main factions being Humans, Zombies, Mi-Go, Triffid, Creature/Animal, etc. Ferals being the current prime example as they are a substantial and unique subset of zombies. Maybe all ferals for now can fight and represent the current zombie faction, but maybe not always. Design talks about rare, intelligent ferals. It would make sense to me that they would see themselves and other ferals as above the Zeds and want to differentiate themselves from the zombies while using zombies.

A faction overhaul i would love to see would allow for many situations. Entities co-opted from one species to fight for another faction. Entities that switch allegiance. Localized factions operating separate or counter from larger interests. Faction splits. New factions emerging. Perhaps a different term from faction can be used for isolated groups of say NPCs or traveling marauders, etc.

[Gotdamnmiracle]

This conversation would do well with a review of the design document. The Cognition after the Cataclysm section in particular.

This document outlines a hierarchical order to ferals. I think it remains feasible that they be organized by the "feral masters" to better execute attacks.

While it may be impossible to form a complex plan, it requires vastly less cognition to execute a command (i.e. "go over there"). This is something that can be easily performed by children before they learn to speak, dogs and some birds, and individuals with damage to parts of their brain (both including whole-brain diseases like alzheimers and trauma to specific locations such as the case study HM).

Other than people not liking it, why would they NOT organize into groups to complete tasks? The zombies already do this in a meta sense.

[fairyarmadillo]

Ferals are part of the zombie group. They organize in the same mindless way that zombies do, alongside the zombies. They see themselves (inasmuch as they have any ego) as zombies, and zombies do too. They aren't really distinct entities except that their brains haven't completely turned to mush yet and they lack the advantages that proper undeath provides. If they were smart or independent enough to do otherwise, they would be killed by the zombies for not being zombies.

[Gotdamnmiracle]

Ferals are part of the zombie group. They organize in the same mindless way that zombies do, alongside the zombies. They aren't really distinct entities except that their brains haven't completely turned to goop yet and they lack the advantages that proper undeath provides.

Did you read the document? It literally describes ferals as intelligent as NPCs.

[fairyarmadillo]

The majority of feral humans are difficult to distinguish from zombies. They can grasp and use simple tools like clubs and melee weapons, and will avoid dangerous obstacles, open doors, and other very simple actions largely governed by motor memory, but that’s about it. These comprise around 1% of the zombie faction.

About a third of ferals remember more complex things. These ferals might use complex tools properly, and would understand for example how to use a gun, activate a Hack, or put on a kevlar vest. They lack forward thinking and executive reasoning, and would be unlikely to engage in complex tactics (they might know how to arm c4, but would not think to put it onto your base wall to blast a way in) but can nevertheless be extremely dangerous. These comprise around 0.3% of the zombie faction.

A very dangerous tenth or so of ferals maintain most of their human intelligence. They can use any tools they would have in life, can plan tactics, and can assess your weaknesses and use salvaged materiel to exploit them… Basically anything an NPC should be able to do. Likely they can talk as well, although probably it would be difficult for them to be too deceptive. These comprise about 1/1000 of the zombie faction. Over time these will probably evolve into a variant living form of zombie Masters and become another nemesis level villain for the late game. Feral Masters would be exceedingly rare, probably 1/10,000 or less, given the low odds of an intelligent feral living long enough to evolve.

The ferals we currently have in game are not the intelligent minority, and are already operating at the limits of what they would be capable of per the document here. I assume implementation of smart ferals is waiting on better AI or some kind of NPC monster system.

[Gotdamnmiracle]

Okay. You still didn't answer my question. Why would intelligent ferals not organize others into groups? It's literally one of the most effective survival strategies. And the easiest way to kill a threat.

And once again, we have "cunning ferals", which are made indistinct from normal ones save for different loot tables. This seems unusual to me. Could it be that they are implemented and are just work in progress?

I think that there may be enough conflicting documentation at current that we need Kevin or Erk to weigh in.

[fairyarmadillo]

Because it hasn't been coded yet. There's long been discussion of giving zombie masters and creatures like the melded task force more complex behavior and ability to direct others, so that kind of thing is definitely on the table for the future.

I assume implementation of NPC-like ferals is similarly waiting on better AI or some kind of NPC monster system. Important stepping stones would be things like monsters being able to direct the activities of other monsters both inside the reality bubble and across the overmap, a better and more reactive horde system, proper use of items by monsters, and dynamic base-building activities.

The cunning ferals are the second variety, the "about a third". They don't make tools, they just have them and know (sort of) how to use them. They don't make plans or organize in any meaningful way and are not the "very dangerous tenth." We don't have those kind yet because there's a lot of very complex work that would need to be done to get them to do even basic stuff.

[PatrikLundell]

Actually, I believe there is a single feral that might actually be the somewhere near the last level, namely the feral child. Similarly, the zombie masters (etc.) could be considered to be the lowest end of "intelligent" zombies (haven't encountered the melded task force).

The reason intelligent ferals wouldn't band together is that they'd not be able to find each other, given how rare they are.

I'd say the "cunning ferals" are within the second category, together with feral security guards. If they're supposed to be within the highest tier, they're probably two orders of magnitude too common.

[fairyarmadillo]

Actually, I believe there is a single feral that might actually be the somewhere near the last level, namely the feral child.

That's not a feral, it's a human that was given too much Alpha mutagen. It's hostile to zombies. It's just insane and inhuman, not under blob control.

[PatrikLundell]

I stand corrected!

[fairyarmadillo]

My take is that a good hypothetical example of the third type of feral would be like, you have a military base that's been overrun and most of the soldiers are zombified. A few of them are feral and still have guns (these being the second type), and there's one super intelligent feral of the third type that has put on a bunch of stolen medals and calls himself the general and goes around setting booby traps and stuff to defend his base from "the enemy". He might even be able to influence the others a bit and keep them from wandering off, but he's really the only one there who is anything more than a drooling monster. Bonus points if he sets up a phony broadcast to lure in victims like the soldiers in 28 Days Later did. It's a situation where there's one intelligent entity among a ton of really stupid ones, rather than a distinct tribal society living within the zombie horde.

This is not thematically dissimilar to the mutant child situation in TCL, where he's doing a Lord of the Flies thing with all the other mutant test subjects, and it is confusing to players that different monster types would be exhibiting similar behavior, but I guess it makes sense that the cataclysm would be chaotic and hard to understand.

[Gotdamnmiracle]

Alright. I think we're on the same page. What I'd like to see is a small handful of feral enclaves (probably represented by map specials, or as a "boss" at the end of a dungeon, much like the melded taskforce) that are led by an intelligent version of the ferals while the others just populate the hordes to fight you.

Incidentally, I like the idea of the military base you suggested. Really, my only issue is I'd like to see ferals acting less like free agents- as we already have a lot of that. I imagine that, yes, that may change with AI additions.

[ghost]

I think it's reasonable that many if not most ferals are just intermingled with zombies, but that there exist and can be found enclaves of ferals who have banded together and exhibit more intentional means of combat. Ferals and zombies can represent two ends up the spectrum of how the blob affected humans, or two distinct paths.

Ferals are an interesting portion of the zombie kind. I would like for them to remain unique and to branch in a different way than zombie mutations. -I think concept of two "types" of zombies makes for an interesting story and especially gameplay when they possibly have unique sets of skills, behaviour, evolution, even movement/groups, etc. -(I think) it fits the lore and makes a good bridge between zombies and bandits or similar intelligent entities. -I feel the game is more dynamic and interesting when factions/lore/gameplay/enemy and challenges increase in number/etc and that these half zombies deserve a more recognized role in the world as the dead in spirit but not body.

From what i see in the docs, nothing concerning Ferals is so set in stone that it can't be amended if it fulfills a good role in the game and story and improves the experience and deepens the lore.

My personal favorite distinction between the two so far is that ferals show small, varying degrees of self preservation. Which i believe fits the idea that their "aliveness" is what separates them from standard zombies, along with increased cognitive ability.

Perhaps if people more involved in the creation of CDDA lore get involved they can help make it clear if delineating Zeds and Ferals is pointless or if it makes lore and gameplay more interesting. If there is no desire in the general community and main devs to expand the Feral dynamic then this can just be left alone, but if there is desire for any of this, let's dialogue about how to best fit Ferals in with the ever-changing landscape of this masterpiece game. i can't help but feel it would be a lost opportunity to let ferals fill a unique role.

Thanks for everyone involved in this conversation, even if you disagree with me, i love hearing other perspectives!

[ghost]

getting into more philosophical, technical questions. What are the reasons most humans become zombies and others become ferals? the design doc seem only mention that varying percentages become what they become.

One possibility is that the mentally strong or strong in spirit succumb less and retain slight amounts of personhood or humanity or at least living status. Another possibility is that if these affects are intentional by the blob and not mere accident from exposure - than the blob have a different purpose for the ferals, or the ferals are an experiment. Or perhaps the blob uses the way both zombies and ferals are infected and changed as means of experiments to achieve goals, whatever those are.

Either way, they are still distinct branches of the phenomenon. My only goal is to see the game continue getting more fun and nuanced and fleshed out.

[PatrikLundell]

ALL dead humans become zombies unless prevented from rising (pulping in practice, stuck in enclosed spaced by game mechanics, and post mortem blob purification in theory). Ferals haven't died (yet), but are sufficiently brain damaged or under blob influence to be recognized by zombies as one of their own.

The lore documents indicate why some humans become feral, while other retain more or less sanity (Psycho's are probably just above ferals on that scale).

[ghost]

If you see where the document indicates why some humans become ferals can you quote it? Because i don't see why, just that it happens. It is merely that they have had less blob exposure?

[Gotdamnmiracle]

I would concur with above. I think it has less to do with will and fuzzy things like "strength of mind" and much more to do with exposure, genetic predisposition, body size, and possibly proximity to portal event- as the cataclysm itself is a two-ingredient dish, so to speak. I think the difference of the gradient of blob effect is probably a physiological one.

I do stand by my theory though that it may be that the "force" the blob used to cause the cataclysm probably looked a lot like acute encephalitis (killing many folks or making them vulnerable) with some slight activation of certain centers of the brain. My guess is the limbic system and a deactivation/reduced activation of the amygdala.

That makes the most sense to me how you end up with so many mostly intact zombies roaming around. Rather than most people dying of acid rain or portal creatures it was severe swelling of the brain (which is pretty easy to do all things considered. Viruses, bacteria, and fungi manage to do it rarely, but consistently across populations).

[ghost]

I don't like the idea that is is will or strength of mind, i am just wondering what the current explanation is, because it didn't seem clear.

[PatrikLundell]

Main document linked: :

Cognition The blob has a potent, albeit often subtle, effect on human cognition.

In about one quarter of the population, changes are basically unnoticeable.

For about half the population, the blob causes an increase in risk-taking behaviour, ranging from mild unsafe practices all the way to people attacking hordes of zombies with a stick. This effect may be permanent or may be temporary, and resolves at varying speed by person. Some may be strongly enough affected to be almost indistinguishable from ferals, but not aligned with zombies.

The remaining quarter see a heavy increase in aggressive, violent behaviour, often completely out of character. The worst of these, about 1/20 of the population, become “ferals”, a form of living zombie. These ferals are not seen as hostile to zombies, and mutate naturally with time just as zombies do. Ferals still maintain a degree of human intelligence, depending on how severely affected they are… Some can remember tool use, for example. Ferals led to a great deal of confusion over whether the reports of the dead rising were true, as feral behavior is very similar to that of zombies. From an out-of-universe perspective, ferals are similar to “rage virus” zombies as seen in 28 days later, but adapted to our lore, and as such are considered zombies internally.

“Blob psychosis” is an out-of-game term for the increased violence experienced by this quarter of the population. Nobody in game calls it that. Strictly speaking it’s not a psychosis, but that term seems to have stuck in our game discussions. :

Well, the quoting logic didn't work properly, but the above (between ":") is the quoted section.

[Gotdamnmiracle]

Yep. That can be explained pretty simply physiologically. Increased risk taking and lack of fear are characteristic of reduced amygdala activation.

• I would happily add to the ingame lore from scientist files and documents regarding this. Not sure if the neuroscience element is too technical, but I think it works.

This is my field of study so that's probably why it's the lens I'm viewing it through.

[ghost]

I had read through that (from the document), it is rather vague about "why" exactly it affects different ppl different, simply stating that it does. Which was my point. Which is why i was asking before if there is some direction the lore would go (or stating that there is room for how the lore can go) about why ferals differ from Zombies.

It is relatively clear that the zombies are more affected by something than the ferals, but like i said looks like there is room to provide greater detail. (Alternatively i am being quite blind and missing clear descriptions on why ferals were affected differently.)

[ghost]

My motives for wanting to make this clear are simply that it can explain how ferals were affected differently or less so, hence retaining a living status and some mental capacity. and that that can explain why they would function a little differently than standard zombies. and it can give reason why we should differentiate them a little more. That ferals are not full zombies, or are different enough that their paths and goals differ (even if still nearly non-existant)

[fairyarmadillo]

The Blob is operating on a level that is far beyond human understanding. No pseudoscientific explanation for ferality is needed and any given will fall short. An Elder God with transdimensional powers and access to infinite energy found earth and as a result, almost everyone went mad, died, and came back as a zombie. The most high tech labs in the world failed to understand the process even as it happened to themselves and their test subjects. Super advanced cyborgs from an alternate earth barely seem to understand the process any better, chalking it up to their version of Satan despite their enormous technical and medical skills. It's not magic, but it is well beyond any scientific explanation the player would ever encounter.

[PatrikLundell]

Again, zombies are affected by something that ferals aren't, namely death. Zombies don't have any real brain functions (which is shown by some of them not even having a brain anymore). The distinction line is between feral and non feral humans.

[Gotdamnmiracle]

Seems like a good place for ingame lore to explore. Scientists doing experiments on the mechanism for the increased aggression, etc. I imagine ferals weren't discovered only after the cataclysm.

The hub NPC Crranberry even references it in their dialogue. Not directly, but an intense increase in aggression on a massive scale and people acting "inhuman".

[fairyarmadillo]

The ingame lore exists. The scientists tried their best, came up with nothing, and then died.

[ghost]

alright, i dont know why you have to dislike everything of mine. I am simply trying to explore the existance of ferals more and see what options we have for the future of zombies and ferals. I understand if you disagree with my take on it.

[Gotdamnmiracle]

The ingame lore exists. The scientists tried their best, came up with nothing, and then died.

They fully discovered the zombification effect. I know of nothing referencing ferals.

[fairyarmadillo]

alright, i dont know why you have to dislike everything of mine. I am simply trying to explore the existance of ferals more and see what options we have for the future of zombies and ferals. I understand if you disagree with my take on it.

You're making things up which are contrary to established lore. I don't like all of the lore, but it needs to remain consistent.

[ghost]

i am proposing suggestions for how to develop things more. Ferals aren't covered much, other than that one section in the doc. And they have recieved a lot of attention in expanding varieties this year. So i would like clear direction for how things are heading,

[Gotdamnmiracle]

alright, i dont know why you have to dislike everything of mine. I am simply trying to explore the existance of ferals more and see what options we have for the future of zombies and ferals. I understand if you disagree with my take on it.

You're making things up which are contrary to established lore. I don't like all of the lore, but it needs to remain consistent.

I feel like your interpretation of lore is incorrect and rigid. Really unless one of the main contributors wants to weigh in then no one is any more right or wrong. That's the funny thing about this stuff- it can change.

It does feel like you've shot down each idea on the subject.

[ghost]

I understand there is a general outline for the game, and aspects which are rather concrete. But factions are still somewhat incomplete and aspects are fluid still. that is why i want to weigh in and just give my input that i like the idea of ferals being distinct from zombies (since the original idea is that currently they are represented in game as merely in the zombie faction and are not differentiated in game that i know of)

If you can give me some reasons why you think it is important they are treated the same then i want to hear it. Also i dont mean to start an argument or anything, just looking for helpful dialogue on ideas or counter arguments so thanks again for weighing in.

[fairyarmadillo]

The ingame lore exists. The scientists tried their best, came up with nothing, and then died.

They fully discovered the zombification effect. I know of nothing referencing ferals.

There are several lab snippets describing people becoming irrational and even killing each other prior to death, and a series which describes XEDRA's perspective as the Cataclysm unfolded. The news snippets are also illuminating.

[fairyarmadillo]

factions are still somewhat incomplete

You have not adequately demonstrated this. I'm not even sure what you think would be accomplished by splitting ferals out but giving them all the same faction allegiances as zombies. The faction system is just a list of what groups the monster is hostile or neutral to. Ferals are controlled by the blob in the same way zombies are, and have the same allegiances and objectives, namely kill anything that isn't blob and don't kill stuff (on purpose) if it is blob.

Apologies for the double post, but this topic is getting very spammy and posts popped in while I was writing the previous one.

[ghost]

Factions are incomplete because there are planned factions that havent been added. new additions to existing factions will continue to be added, and i am sure there will be future ideas and developments. i dont think you can say they are complete at least. Not that the story will change drastically, but no doubt, things will evolve in, say 5 years.

One main reason for wanting things more detailed is for a better "faction menu" in game to record and view info on factions and mobs. I think it is important information for the player to know. And again, i have already detailed how the factions would have same allegiances for now (maybe always), but it opens the door for other possibilities. Like the possibility of groups of ferals enslaving or turning against zombies a while after the cataclysm. Just ideas for how it could get more interesting. Anyway, ill just leave it here for now i guess.

[fairyarmadillo]

You're describing NPC faction groups, which are different from monster factions. NPC faction groups describe complex political networks with mutable opinion scores. Monster factions are an entirely different system that just defines which monsters are hostile or neutral to each other. Neither ferals nor zombies have an NPC faction group at all.

Monster factions are defined in monster_faction.json and are extremely simple. If you can think of a case where ferals would need to be on a separate faction from zombies to satisfy some condition with their AI behavior and basic code, that would be grounds to move forward with this suggestion. Nothing in the faction entry currently doesn't apply to both, so separating them wouldn't do anything.

{ "type": "MONSTER_FACTION", "name": "zombie", "friendly": [ "slime" ], "neutral": [ "cult", "small_animal", "fish", "insect", "aquatic_predator" ], "by_mood": [ "ant", "acid_ant", "bee", "wasp", "stag_beetle" ] },

This faction ignores very small animals and most animals that live in water, mostly because zombies chasing squirrels around or charging into the water to attack salmon is pointless and silly. It's friendly to slimes (that might be outdated lore or just a gameplay consideration) and it ignores bees, wasps, and ants unless some violence occurs in which case they fight. Hive insects are territorial so they will often start wars with zombies who get too close. It's hostile to all others, except the cult which is a small group of seemingly feral humans that are rarely seen. What's missing here that ferals would distinctly need?

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