Light-Wave
commented
1 year ago - The idea was that these shards were the result of wild clay being heated by wildfires or struck by lightning. When I added them, I thought the shards were going to be useful, but that might not be the case. Since they cause more confusion that convenience, perhaps they should be removed. I also don't know if cheremic even can from that way.
- I'm fine with most things that require metalworking. It would be reasonable to make a bronze tool with wood sawing 2 perhaps, but I would like that tool to be added to mainline in that case, and not be unique to Innawood. That being said, I don't like how it is not possible to make vegetable oil without such relatively advanced equipment. I think it would be reasonable to have a slower and less efficient recipe available without the screw press. As for the still, I generally consider alcohol brewing to be after metalworking and during chemistry in the Innawood tech tree.
- There is talk about changing around how duct tape works, and what needs it. See #65531 for more discussion about that.
- When you harvest the spurge flower, you get both seeds and the plant. This signals to me that the usable part of the plant is distinct from the part that holds the seeds, and thus not interchangeable. You also get seeds from harvesting plated flowers. See #61101 for when I came to this realization.
- A prying tool made from bronze would make sense to me. Perhaps a bronze crowbar. But again, I would prefer that to be added to mainline in that case.
- I generally consider chemistry to be after steel in the tech tree, and I don't want players to be able to bypass the whole process of gaining blacksmithing tools. So I think a better solution would be to lower the chisel level requirement to 1. Although if you end up changing recipes for modded ores, you might also want to push such changes to the mining mod to keep the recipes consistent.
- I approve of changing this recipe to not require flatjaw tongs. I could see an argument to reduce the spear shaft requirement to fine cutting 1, but I'm not sure that is necessary. I do think tallow is easy enough to get. Most giant bugs drop mutant fat, and dogs are relatively easy to find and kill for tallow. But as mentioned before, vegetable oil should preferably be made much easier to get, at least in small quantities.
- Yeah, the changes to ammonia recipes really messed up Innawood endgame progression. I think most important things that used to require ammonia has had alternative ways of getting them introduced. It would be nice if there was an easier and perhaps less efficient way to make ammonia, but I would prefer such things to go into mainline in that case. The ammonia recipe should probably be removed from Innawood, and some of those glass shard recipes should be revised and if possible ported to mainline as well.
- I didn't notice that lye stopped being craftable. As you said, that recipe should be made autolearned. I agree.
- An alternative vat that is completely wooden makes sense to me. Again, I would prefer to see that in mainline in that case. The fact that many effects of the brewing barrel are hardcoded could potentially be problematic, so watch out for that. Alternatively, as I mentioned before I'm fine with brewing being where it is now, after steel and during chemistry in the tech tree.
- The construction you suggests sounds reasonable. Should be put in mainline.
- The required tools seems fine-ish to me from a gameplay perspective. But if you can find sources saying other tools can be used instead, feel free to try to push that to mainline. Maybe bronze items would work?
Thank you for taking time for this. :thumbsup:
PatrikLundell
RenechCDDA
db47h
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Is your feature request related to a problem? Please describe.
This is mostly intended for @Light-Wave although other input is welcome. These are all things I plan to resolve myself, I just need direction on the preferred direction.
I'm going to list and number a series of suggestions and then provide my suggested changes in the next category. These have been written down to myself as notes, so some of them might be a bit rough.
1) Ceramic shards can be foraged from the trash_forest group, is this intended? It was added by @Light-Wave originally. https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/blob/9a4259f56731c94ea315baa785d3804af24661dc/data/mods/innawood/itemgroups/trash_and_debris.json#L16
I believe they may have been originally added to allow basic butchery without making tools but ceramic shards no longer work for that purpose (cutting 2 is required).
They're a pretty rare find so if they were intended to be used for butchery I think their role can be replaced by sharp rocks (although the cutting 2 requirement being hardcoded is problematic)
2) Wood sawing 2 quality in innawoods requires steel tools(bow saw/wood saw), which means you cannot make screw press/still/furniture without massive infrastructure.
3) The still also requires duct tape. This makes me very sad because duct tape is hard to acquire in innawoods.
4) Can't make spurge seeds from spurge plants
5) Wooden frames/etc require prying 1 to take apart, which requires.... hammer! STEEL hammer. So if you make a mistake on your dinky little vehicle put together with bronze nails you CANNOT take it apart until you get to the 'iron age'.
5a) The only way to make a steerable wheel mount (for a vehicle) needs wire so.... steel is definitely required
6) Bronze chisel for chiseling 2? used for breaking apart some ores into their component bits (manganese dioxide and zinc). Can be useful when someone is skilling into applied science faster than fabrication
7) Access to the fine cutting quality requires at least a bronze knife. Ok, reasonable, but... the bronze knife requires flatjaw tongs (at the least) to make. Very few of the bronze sandcast mold recipes require this. Why does the knife require tongs? Surely it can just be poured, cooled, and grinded down to a good edge afterwards?
Flatjaw tongs require multiple lumps of steel, although they can be forged with anvil 1(boulder)/hammering 2(stone hammer). It's not totally impossible, BUT....
7a) Fine cutting is required for making spear shafts. These are required to make proper spears, including stone, copper and brone spears.
7b) Spear shafts also require some sort of sealing agent (tallow/animal cooking oil/vegetable oil). It can be very difficult to get any of these, as fat/animal cooking oil requires you to kill a sufficiently large land animal and vegetable cooking oil requires an enormous investment for a screw press.
8) The ammonia recipe in innawood appears to have been accidentally(?) changed to produce ammonia solution. Ammonia solution has
almost no uses(actually no uses in innawoods), and innawoods has a lot of recipes expecting you to use liquid ammonia. One of those recipes is glass shards: https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/blob/9a4259f56731c94ea315baa785d3804af24661dc/data/mods/innawood/recipes/other/materials.json#L66-L729) No way to make lye/lye powder in innawoods(lye recipes are not autolearned). This+no liquid ammonia means no black gunpowder, no biodiesel
10) Fermentation! Fermentation vats require... 13 small metal sheets oh my god. So that's either 39 straight hours of crafting, or grinding to fabrication 9 and then disassembling a large sheet metal
11) We need some other way to get access to to the oven cooking 2 quality. I wish to make hazelnut cake. My clay pot oven does not allow me to make hazelnut cake.
12) Glass shard recipes requires... pot(requires full steel tools) OR makeshift pot(requires sheet metal...) OR sheet metal(fab 9 AND full steel tools)
Solution you would like.
1) These are manmade items so I think they shouldn't be forageable. The fact they were added by Light-Wave themself gives me some pause, though.
2) Add a bronze saw OR a "primitive" iron/steel saw which provides this quality, but doesn't require the player to have a full steel production chain+fabrication 7.
The recipes could be adjusted instead but... there's a lot of recipes.
3) The still should probably just get an alternate recipe without duct tape. Easy. (It doesn't make sense to need duct tape when you're building it from scratch either)
4) I don't know if this is an oversight or intentional but seeds can only be acquired from wild foraging, which makes spurge non-renewable. This is only really relevant in innawoods, as the latex-->rubber recipes cannot be learned in DDA.
I should probably just google this and find out how it bears seeds5) Perhaps some sort of long tapered stick (to act as a wedge+lever) is appropriate, it's only prying 1 after all. And there's no windows/manhole covers to open anyway, so balance is not really a concern.
5a) I don't know if wooden land vehicles are desired without access to steel, but if you tame a horse/cow early it'd feel kind of bad not to be able to use them as a beast of burden until the industrial revolution arrives. Foot pedals would still require steel access, although parts like the sail (even on land) could possible allow bizarre land vehicles with only bronze, which may not be desirable.
6) Bronze chisel should definitely just be a thing, maybe even a basegame CDDA thing.
7) A comment on the recipe (it was previously an innawoods-only recipe and got moved to DDA a while back) explaining its production process would help, or removal of the tongs requirement. Alternatively the sandcasting part could produce a basic knife without fine cutting, and a separate recipe using grinding/filing could consume it to produce a a knife with an appropriately sharp edge (with fine cutting 1).
7a) Perhaps a recipe change in innawoods is called for?
7b) The oil requirement is legitimate and realistic, but the difficulty of acquiring a single craft of oil is due to a combination of factors.
For example, hunting rabbits is insanely difficult due to their skittish nature and incredibly high speed - which they can maintain indefinitely. A self bow or other ranged weapon is a necessity, but even with them you could spend an entire day chasing down a rabbit and not get a kill.
Vegetable oil seems more reasonable on the face of it, but the existing recipe is for a very large screw press that presses a huge amount of seeds/paste at once. Maybe some sort of very simple small-scale process (operated entirely by hand with little/no mechanical leverage) should exist.
8) I know it's unrealistic to craft ammonia this way, but this just seems to be an error which needs correcting? (With the edit I am now sure that this is just an error. Ammonia solution actually has no uses whatsoever.)
9) Make the basic lye electrolysis from salt water recipe autolearned. This allows the player to (expensively! electricity is very valuable!) make lye and then process it into lye powder, instead of locking out all of its related recipes.
10) A wooden fermentation vat should be okay I hope?
11) A construction made of fire bricks should be strong enough to withstand the high heats associated with baking.
12) Some alternate way to make glass without going full industrial revolution would be nice, and should be realistically possible? Venice was a major glassmaking industry at the end of the 13th century.
Describe alternatives you have considered.
No response
Additional context
Oh goodness that's a lot of words. I hope this isn't troublesome to go through.