A super-soldier and high tech melee mod pack; should we make it?

[NaturesWitness]

Recently I had an idea for a new, and somewhat odd, item; the Bowt'leth! A variant of the Bat'leth (from Star Trek, big Klingon crescent-shaped sword thingy) this large, slightly unwieldy melee weapon has a powerful internal spring assembly attached to a steel cable that can be pulled out from one of the ends. When the cable is pulled out and attached to the other end of the blade, the weapon is converted into an effective, if slightly clunky, bow. It's not the BEST melee weapon of all time (though it's great for blocking), and it's not the BEST bow of all time (the range, damage, and accuracy aren't the greatest compared to a high quality compound bow, but it's still better than a self bow) but it combines ranged AND melee combat into a single package that, while still bulky, takes up FAR less room and weight than trying to carry a big sword AND a big bow at the same time. While I think I can make this a balanced and fair weapon, I know some people just won't want to have it in their game no matter what I do (my Heatblades caused such a firestorm I should rename them the Hindenburg II; "Oh. the humanity!!") Anyway, I've been thinking maybe we should just have a separate modpack for this kind of thing, It would give us a place for this "Rule of Cool" type of item, and if people want to play a more gritty, realistic, and (boring) "The Walking Dead"-style game, they can just turn off the modpack.

Is the Bowt'leth a good idea? Should I bother making it? Am I just a moron? Let me know!!

[moist-zombie]

I have nothing against it, whether its separated into a mod or not, but I'm that kind of guy :> Honestly though, seems like any bow could support an upper spike or curved blade attachment to give it some slash or stab power, and all in the realm of possibility that purists shouldn't be able to complain much about ;) Also (I haven't played in ages; confession!) if the new weapon durability thing is cool enough, maybe using a melee attachment with a bow weapon could cause extra weapon damage when using a bow to bash or slash with :> (Now this has me thinking about the viability of a mace-like weighted attachment to go along with it) :>

Besides all that, and concerning "the realm of possibility" Google Images turns up an insane amount of custom one-of-a-kind weaponry thats running around out there that would technically be left behind in a real zombirific cataclysm :> Let's see..

http://www.etsy.com/listing/171098749/batleth?utm_source=google&utm_medium=product_listing_promoted&utm_campaign=accessories_mid&gclid=CMGU3LDHuL0CFVBgfgod-FEACw

http://www.amazon.com/BATLETH-TREKKIE-PRODUCTS-Traditional-Batleth/dp/B001G1ZK5M

http://www.trueswords.com/massive-klingon-batleth-style-sword-p-5488.html

http://www.tested.com/art/movies/455555-blacksmithing-klingon-batleth/ (guide to make your own!)

https://www.etsy.com/listing/112130503/full-size-klingon-batleth-and-mekleth

Wikipedia quote!! "Replicas of bat'leths are widely available as collectibles and are used in costuming. They have been used in crimes. Debates on the legality of the weapon differs between countries."

At this point I'm pretty sure there is probably (somewhat-affordable) Klingon weaponry in my neighborhood somewhere ;)

[kevingranade]

Bows rely totally on their elasticity and balance to function properly, attaching melee weapons to a bow simply doesn't work. That having been said, that's why we're saying silly/impractical/implausible weapon mod for it, some people don't care if it's implausible and that's ok too. Btw, please don't take me calling it silly or whatever as a criticism, I'm just looking for a good word to use to describe it.

[NaturesWitness]

From a technical standpoint this probably isn't a bow at all; the propelling force comes from the spring assembly inside the blade pulling the bowstring taut, drawing the string actually pulls the cable further out of the frame, when you let go it retracts with so much force it sends the arrow flying, the frame doesn't flex at all. This is admittedly a VERY stupid way to make a bow, which will be reflected in it's stats; the damage and range will be slightly less than a compound bow. I don't really intend for this to be an amazing ranged weapon or an amazing melee weapon; the idea is a survivor, for whom carrying capacity is of supreme importance, can have, in a single object, a reasonably effective means of defending themselves at both medium- and close- range, all without making large amounts of noise or consuming hard to renew ammunition. This isn't something you use to take on an army, you carry it when you're raiding houses and gathering everything you can carry, and you just don't have space to carry a zweihander and a siege crossbow, and you can't afford the noise (or ammo) of firearms, but still need something powerful enough to take down moderate threats.

Besides, making complex, multi-function items is just what I like doing, and I haven't been able to think of any ideas for ages now.

[John-Candlebury]

Well its fine by me if you come up with an original name different than Bowt'leth and write the same funny (kinda insane) type of descriptions like what you did with the fire swords.

That said, judging from how it operates it probably should be way inferior to the compound bow, probably with similar stats as the short bow (actually they should probably be even lower) while having an even lower needed strength.

[NaturesWitness]

I actually thought Bowt'leth was kind of clever, it's a pun on the name of the actual blade, the Bat'leth. But if people don't think it's original enough, I'll come up with something else more unique.

On the stats, so far I'm leaning toward something that's kind of a mixed bag; while it's true the concept of how it works isn't nearly as good as a normal bow, this thing also is FAR more expensive (and rarer, and MUCH harder to make) than just about any other bow in the game. I'm assuming this had significant R&D assigned to creating it, so some of the drawbacks are counteracted by quality control.

This will probably have a fairly high STR requirement. It's pretty big, probably only slightly smaller than a full-blown longbow, and much heavier. The internal tension assembly is pretty powerful too; remember this is also intended as a BIG melee weapon, it's not designed to be used by scrawny people.

The damage and range will probably be pretty good, but it May be fairly slow to reload for a bow, and the accuracy won't be the greatest either (though not terrible, as these problems were foreseen in development and they did their best to address them with things like built-in adjustable sights, an ergonomic handle and integral gyro-stabilizer and laser sight mods).

Getting one of these will not be easy. The EASIEST place to find one will probably be extremely rarely in a mansion armor collection, but more likely in a military lab as part of some Rambo-style future soldier research program.

Who says the only thing they can research is lasers and plasma cannons and sci-fi shit like that? That's boring! And INCREDIBLY cliche! Screw that! This is Cataclysm! I want them researching FUN things, like super bows! You thought Captain America was hot stuff with his shield? Wait till you see the mark II version! He's got hydraulic muscles, can shoot LIGHTNING from his hands, which by the way have enough tools built into them to hack a supercomputer, rebuild your car's transmission, and even cook lunch! No really, his hands have heating elements in them, he doesn't even need a stove. AND we gave him this awesome bow that can ALSO cut people in half!

Sorry, that got a little out of hand. I've been trying to think of some good lore to go along with this. I'm starting to think I may be able to make this a serious item and not just a (fun) gimmick type thing. We always think high-tech has to be laser rifles and jetpacks, it's time we mixed it up a bit.

Finally, this will definitely have the same kind of menu-text silliness that my stuff is known for. I'm thinking a strong, warlike theme, possibly with influences from Viking or Mongolian history.

[i2amroy]

+1 For pulling all this stuff out into a mod. One of the bigger complaints we've been having from the community is the crazy weapons breaking stuff, and being able to turn them on/off with a single switch would definitely get my vote.

[NaturesWitness]

I've actually been doing some thinking, and I may turn this into a future-soldier mod, with it's own research labs and weapons, armor, etc. I really think the game could use a set of military grade, high tech gear that is more focused on things like melee, bows, and survival.

All high-tech science in Cata currently falls squarely into the same tropes as every other game for the past 20 years; railguns, plasma cannons, and power armor. It's boring! We can do better than this! Let's branch out a little, be creative. Let's see more synthetic diamond knives, some kinetic-booster super sledges, and Tesla maces.

If you have any opinions on any of this, please let me know. I'd really like to know if people are interested in seeing what would basically be a whole new discipline of science and technology in Cataclysm, and also if anyone else is interested in developing content for it. While I have a few ideas, I really don't think I can do it all by myself, if this is going to happen I'm going to need help.

[kevingranade]

I like it, if you give some context that it's a new direction in special forces development, it becomes less a bunch of one-off crazy things, it at least becomes one big one-off crazy thing ;)

[Rivet-the-Zombie]

I'd be totally cool with this as main game content. Not everything has to be a mod.

[KA101]

Weaponizing Tesla coils could be a thing, yeah. Last I knew electrolasers (Taser that runs the current down a laser beam rather than dart & wires) were IRL possible, so aiming a Tesla might get worked out in 20-30 years.

No real problem with other Weird Tech but it will make upgrading the Labs even more of a priority. As for modpacking, it would encourage removing the existing energy weapons (and possibly the powered armors) to the "high tech" pack.

I guess my biggest problem with modpacking is that the folks who clamor for it do very little in the way of modpackable work themselves, so it feels like an attack: "Your work is disposable. Mine is not."

[John-Candlebury]

Electrolaser rifles sound like a neat idea. And some more plasma/laser weaponry would surely be welcome.

That said, i would not be such a fan of having captain america's shield in the game. And would prefer if the gear you make is at least sound enough to be something that the US army would care to develop outside of a superhero comic.

Gear can be pretty awesome without the need to completely chug plausibility out of the window. What about combat knifes/bayonets made of self sharpening alloys (aka completely immune to being worn out)? Or what about the XM29 OICW? Or what about focusing on weapons the utilize the already existent multidimensional lore? Grenades that destabilize the fabric of space? A gun that teleports its target several hundred meters underground?

[NaturesWitness]

I don't actually want Cap's shield in-game. What I want is high-tech, military grade gear that's something OTHER than just another big gun. The self-sharpening knives is more the kind of thing I was thinking of, simple concept (a knife), redone with high technology. It's the same thing with the Bowt'leth, an old technology (the bow), re-imagined with modern technology. The self-sharpening knives actually also touch on another facet I'd like this mod to focus on; survival tech. I want to do gear that's geared toward a lone operative, who doesn't have the benefits of a supply chain that a normal soldier relays on.

The Bowt'leth is aimed at this dynamic as well; both of it's functions (melee and range) are meant to be sustainable in the field (blades don't require ammo, and arrows are both reusable, can be constructed from scavenged material, and are silent and so don't attract the kind of attention a lone operative would very much prefer to avoid).

On that note, another weapon I thought of a while ago (and will probably make for this mod) is the Capacitor sledge. While appearing at a glance to be little more than a war hammer, this weapon is highly advanced and is intended specifically to address the needs of modern power armor infantry. The large hammer head actually holds a UPS device, along with a variant of the technology that is used in the heat drain bionic. When striking warm-blooded or electrically charged targets (like robots or hostiles in power armor) the hammer inflicts extra endothermic damage, and more importantly, gathers power that is stored in the weapon's UPS system. This allows power armor infantry to literally generate power in combat. This provides a vital edge for troops separated from supply lines, as a power armor trooper without power is a dead power armor trooper. An alternate (and usually more effective) use for this functionality is that a trooper stranded alone can gather nearby materials, start a small fire, and place the head of the weapon in it. This will charge the weapon fairly effectively, and can mean the difference between like and death for a soldier.

[kevingranade]

Btw, there's an existing high-tech-ish knife to consider, don't recall the name offhand, but there's a diving knife that injects a large amount of gas (usually CO2) through the tip when you stab with it, does a MASSIVE amount of damage at the cost of being quite noisy and consuming CO2 cartridges.

Regarding mod packs, the ideal for the core is things that exist in reality today and in high enough numbers that it's reasonable to run across one. The first is fairly constant, but if we add information-gathering features of some kind the second could expand somewhat. That having been said, that doesn't set anyone's priorities, so it happens when it happens.

[NaturesWitness]

Okay, trying to sum things up here, the opinions seem to be;

The Bowt'leth (I am going to think up a better name, this is a bit too much of a stretch) would be okay for inclusion as part of a "Special Forces" mod pack, provided we add lore with it (maybe research notes?) explaining this and some other items were developed as part of a project to design new types of gear for a new generation of soldier. I'm actually starting to think a good direction to take this might be as a sister-program to the projects that developed some of the other advanced military equipment in Cata, like powered armor and cybernetics.

My next question is, what is the best way to place gear like this in-game? While this is technically military equipment, it's not something that would be generally issued; it's covert ops gear, meant for a specific purpose. Should it only be found in labs (still in R&D when the outbreak hit), or extremely rarely in military base and outposts (maybe a spec-ops team was stationed there)? If we can get more people coding this kind of gear, a new facility type (black ops outpost) could be a possibility, but I don't think we have enough black ops equipment in-game yet to justify it. I also know nothing about map coding).

Finally, does anybody like the idea of the Capacitor Sledge? I think it could be a useful, and plausible, item in Cata's lore. After all, the base technology it uses, the heat drain bionic and the UPS system, have been a part of Cata for ages, this is just a new application for it. But then, I think a lot of things, and people often don't agree with me. I'd really like to hear if people think the idea has any merit.

[kevingranade]

Roll out placement as you have content for it, I'd start with a "special forces equipment cache" map special, possibly marked with a radio beacon, or an overrun special forces squad. Only need to worry about making a lab full of the stuff once you do have the content to stock it. Capacitor sledge is a fine idea, though I'd call it a "stun sledge" since that's basically what it is (stun gun curcuitry built into a sledgehammer).

[NaturesWitness]

The Sledge doesn't actually stun people; it uses a variant of the technology in the Heat Drain bionic to generate power, which is stored inside the weapon to fuel an integral UPS system. It's meant for soldiers wearing power armor, to offset some of the energy used by the suit itself; beating on targets with it helps power the armor, so they can keep beating longer. It also has a function where it can generate power by having the hammer head left in a high-heat environment (like a campfire). It gives a trooper a way to recharge power in the field in an emergency, such as being cut off from a supply line.

[kevingranade]

The problem is if you extract energy to do some other work, there's less left to do the original task. In this case it would have strictly less damage than an unmodified sledgehammer, and the amount of harvestable energy in there is pretty small in the first place.

[NaturesWitness]

It's not gathering kinetic energy, it's gathering thermal energy. It does the exact same thing as the heat drain bionic, it just channels it to a different point. I admit it doesn't gather much power, but it's something. The main way I saw this used was actually the whole "use a fire to recharge" thing, gathering energy from hostile was kinda secondary. Maybe the real problem is the bionic I'm basing it on (heat drain) is pretty unrealistic, even by Cata standards.

[kevingranade]

Nothing wrong here, but the discussion wound down a while ago.