Additional Proposals to Fix and Rebalance Survivor Gear

Is your feature request related to a problem? Please describe.

Following #73147, the topic of what the survivor gear should be has been brought up again. Which leads me to discuss the major issue of it: The purpose of survivor gear is quite frankly all over the place. Some pieces, Like the Scavenger set, has been (mostly, the cowl hasnt been touched) fully redesigned to be a post apocalyptic upgrade of ballistic armor, but the other pieces are very inconsistent with eachother.

If we're going by what fairyarmadillo has commented about the matter (Shout out to them btw, for inspiring me to follow through on this) The general premises for the survivor gear would be:

~~Acidproof and bileproof (and by extension weather repellant)~~ Now just weather repellant, following the intent to NOT have Acid/Bile interactions with armor
Reasonably maintainable and craftable
Practical, but not the best, to allow the Hub 01, Nomad gear, Ballistic military armor, and Plate armor to shine in their respective catagories, while still being decently protective for the average cataclysm survivor who hasn't found the good stuff yet

This leaves a fair amount of leeway for what the items should be made into, with Fairyarmadillo himself (again, credit to them, you can read #71700 to read his writing on the topic)

As of right now, quite a few things need to be changed, or otherwise looked at

Survivor Jumpsuits, and what level of protection they should be providing for each "level" of protection/ specialisation, and how they should be designed. (and should they even have a Lycra core base layer?)
Survivor Hoods, and what material and protection changes should be given.
The Scavenger Cowl's much needed rework (This could be done completely seperate to everything else here tbqh, but it was on the mind while writing this)
Survivor Gloves, and what should be changed about their material composition and qualities to fit the above premise for survivor gear and realistic protection.
The other Remaining Survivor Boots (Do we keep em, or do we yeet em?)
Survivor Cargo Pants, the problem of having a lightweight and normal version, and what they should be made out of instead of just basic cotton and kevlar, and fitting changes to match
Survivor Backpack family, Should it be changed all that much, or is it in a alright state of of right now, (and if it should have MOLLE or not)
Survivor Belt, Harness, and Rigging (Bit more reluctant on this one tbqh, but i would say that some of you all might have good recommendations on what to do with them)

Solution you would like.

Split up the task of redesigning the survivor gear, using this Feature Request as a staging ground and general discussion for it, and doing the relevant PR's as seperate for each item type changed I.E. one PR for jumpsuits, another for gloves, another for hoods, and so on. The PR's will be marked as draft only, to ensure that all the relevant changes should be done only when ready for merging.

Describe alternatives you have considered.

Maybe this could be condensed a bit more? I dont really know, but this was due for a long time coming now.

Additional context

I have nothing personally, but anyone who wants to give feedback and other comments are very much welcome and encouraged

The changes I intended to make are no longer relevant as it was made clear that bile/acid interactions with armor are not something that the devs want in the game.

With that being the case, I do not believe there is a pressing need to do anything at all with survivor gear. It is all essentially fine.

The changes I intended to make are no longer relevant as it was made clear that bile/acid interactions with armor are not something that the devs want in the game.

With that being the case, I do not believe there is a pressing need to do anything at all with survivor gear. It is all essentially fine.

Thanks for the clarification! I will take note of that going forward, but I'll still try my hand at making the other stuff ingame a bit more consistent with the new armor system, and what materials should be used for survivor gear.

Well to expand on one issue, kevlar is to my knowledge not an appropriate material for garment facing (facing refers to the outer part of a garment, liner refers to the inner), and is not something you would want to make a jumpsuit out of. Most kevlar is a slightly nappy material with a wide weave that easily catches on stuff. It does not resist abrasion and wear very well, and in fact these properties are what allow it to do its job. A blade slicing across kevlar catches on the fibers, which pull against the weave, and distribute the shear force out across the item. This works great for protection, but it requires that the garment does not have any wear and tear on it. This is why kevlar protective items are usually either disposable (like cut-resistant sleeves) or the kevlar is an inner layer.

Some IRL experimentation with different materials led me to the conclusion that a good configuration for the armor as it has historically been described would be:

Light survivor suit: A layer of cut-resistant Kevlar sandwiched between a lycra liner and a nylon jumpsuit. I have crafted this item in real life. It was a bit warm, but other than that quite comfortable. This item would be great for battling zombies, not so great for getting shot at - thus the term "survivor" makes a lot of sense. It's stuff MacGuyvered together for battling the undead. Survivor suit: Same as above, with a soft ballistic vest (the item is called Kevlar vest in CDDA) sewn inside of it. I have crafted this item in real life. The ballistic vest is somewhat restrictive, but it's something you could wear around all day if you had to. Heavy survivor suit: Same as above, but with a steel breastplate and metal brigandine sewn over the jumpsuit. This one is the most speculative as I have no experience with metal armor. You could also include things like the ballistic collar, groin guard, and shoulder guards that come with the OTV vests the Marine Corps use.

My IRL survivor suit. A polyester jumpsuit with a thick cut-resistant kevlar liner and a 3A Kevlar Vest sewn into it. It is comfortable, durable, and flexible.

Nylon itself is very tough, and the very unscientific testing I can do with the suit I have suggests that it could feasibly offer some protection relative to its comfort level. I cannot cut through it even with a very sharp folding knife, and it resists stabs enough to suggest that it would reduce but not eliminate injury. A quick jab penetrated to a depth of 1/4" but could not easily go further.

Obviously I am not going to get shot while wearing this thing, but the vest is a 3A, which is supposedly going to stop anything short of 223.

My intent for the game was to have this be the format for survivor suits, with a layer of Flexseal (butyl rubber) sprayed over the outside to make a garment that was very good at resisting acid and provided moderate protection against everything else. Given that fluid attacks are out, there's no reason for the rubberizing, but the rest of it might work if you want to do something like:

Light survivor suit: Lycra 0.2mm, (cut-resistant) Kevlar 4mm, nylon 1mm.

That would work out to 5 bash, 13 cut, 11 ballistic protection. Quite good for the normal layer, and a nice complement to a variety of different possible outer and under items. If the protection values seem too high, consider reducing the Kevlar to 2.5mm, for parity with the cut-resistant apron.

Survivor suit: Lycra 0.2mm, (cut-resistant) Kevlar 4mm, ( 90%torso only: nylon 0.3mm and ballistic Kevlar 3.3mm), nylon 1mm.

That would work out to 5 bash, 13 cut, 11 ballistic protection, except on the torso it would go up to 10 20 29 90% of the time. Padding could be added to the elbows and knees I suppose, but I'm not sure it would be worth the extra encumbrance. Again, if the protection values seem too high, consider reducing the cut-resistant Kevlar to 2.5mm, for parity with the cut-resistant apron.

Survivor hoods, dusters, and trenchcoats could follow a similar pattern to the light survivor suit, and do not need light/normal/heavy versions. I have a heavy-duty Serbian army surplus parka that already feels quite insulating and could easily take a kevlar liner.

I do not believe leather is a good material for these items, they should be restricted to synthetics as those are readily available and offer better performance in all cases. The one place I did use leather was in #70666 - the lederschutzmasken is a historical example of treated leather being gas-proof, which was a handy trait for a hand-crafted gas mask that can fit over a mutant snout.

Survivor firegear uses a rare and tempermental material, Nomex. Nomex actually sucks to work with IRL and you have to keep it out of direct sunlight. It also causes cancer and is sort of hard to find. I think you'd just replace the nylon in the light survivor suit with nomex to get a survivor firesuit, and I think it would be reasonable to never include the ballistic vest as it's not going to help you in a fire.

Survivor boots are cool but I think all variants should be removed except the standard Survivor Boot, which is probably fine as-is. It's a kevlar, nomex, leather, and steel boot that resists acid and fire which is about all you could ask for out of an apocalypse shoe. Everything else is unnecessary bloat.

It would also be possible to ditch the "survivor suit" item and replace it with the proposed light survivor suit, as this would be functionally identical to wearing a light survivor suit over a kevlar vest. This would shrink the way-too-big list of survivor items and prevent cheese like wearing a survivor suit over a kevlar vest without penalty.

Additional detail of the kevlar inner - don't mind my crappy basting here, I was just quickly throwing it together. I'd use much more durable stitching on an item I was wearing into battle. I didn't include a lycra liner on my suit IRL but it does feel a bit itchy and I think wearing it long-term without one would reduce protection as the fabric rubbed against my underclothes.

One thing I think really needs a second look is all the survivor dive gear. Kevlar has the feel and weight of acrylic wool, and it isn't as stretchy as the stuff they make wetsuits out of. It is my strong opinion that all of that crap should be obsoleted, as it's one of the worst examples of the bad "item plus kevlar equals better item" logic.

Thats a very good point about the diving gear, I dont think that stuff is really used much anyways, and if kevlar itself acts antithetical to diving gear, makes sense to obsolete it. The additional comment about kevlar uv degradation is also pretty good, i remember bringing that up for when the survivor boot changes happened. As for the firesuit, Nomex also degrades under uv, no? Would thicker treated leather be appropriate as a overlayer for the firesuit, or is the treated leather not viable enough for fire resistance. I do remember reading a tidbit that firefighter helmets used to be made of cuir bouilli as it held up against fire, while still being impact resistant, maybe it could be used for the fire hood? (this just makes it more apparent that cuir bouilli needs to be in-game as a actual material, and not just reg leather but thicker)

Also: FYI That survivor suit is badass, you have a template for it? (sorry, just had to gush over it a little. eheheh)

I think survivor firegear should just use whatever materials that firefighter equipment uses, with some additional considerations made for combat.

Survivor firesuit: Just add 2mm of kevlar under a flame-resistant suit. Survivor fire hood: ditto for the flame-resistant hood.

There's no need for survivor fireboots or firegloves. They're just cruft, they're outdated (they don't even have rubber soles!) and they wouldn't do anything that the turnout gloves and boots don't already do. Similarly, the existing turnout coat is already everything a survivor would want and more, so I don't think a special survivor-y version would make much sense.

I also don't think the UV degradation needs to be modeled as it takes way longer than would be relevant in the game. It's just one reason you don't see Kevlar used on the outside of things. Some items, like firesuits (https://www.uniformswarehouse.com/elbeco-flame-resistant-nomex-reg-lll-a-jumpsuit-yellow-47554.html) and military flight suits are made solely of a layer of Nomex that is exposed to the outside world, but these items are not intended for years of daily service and are frequently replaced.

I don't have a template for the suit, it's just a military surplus utility jumpsuit made of polyester, and the lining is just salvaged from disassembled cut-resistant sleeves, two layers thick. I darted the waist and cuffed the legs to fit me better, and attached the ballistic vest by sewing in some velcro strips. I chose polyester for the jumpsuit as it has great acid resistance, but that material is best represented by nylon/synthetic fabric in the game. You can find 'em all over the internet for very cheap.

Something else I thought of: One argument for making survivor items instead of just wearing military gear is that a custom-built item makes sense for a mutant who can't wear people clothes. It's probably not necessary now, but as Venera's limb project moves forward, it may be a good idea to roll out things like a survivor skirt or a survivor robe, which would be able to protect things like tree branches, gastropod foots, and tentacles without restricting them.

When creating survivor gear, I suggest focusing on the following:

1. There are two technological levels:

medium level. Diverse skills of level 5..6.
higher level. Diverse skills of level 9..10.

By diverse skills, I don't just mean tailoring, but the rest of the production skills as well. All the way up to cooking, if you can come up with the appropriate recipe. In principle, you can use combat skills as well. But reduce them to more reasonable values.

Higher level gear, this is mid-level gear with a slight improvement in one of the parameters or added functionality, without changing the parameters.

Example. Medium level pants with 10 defense and 10 encumbrance. Then these higher level pants can be with 10 defense and 5 encumbrance. Or with 15 protection and 10 encumbrance. Or with 10 protection and 10 encumbrance but with heating.

2. Tools and materials used in the construction of the gear must be common. It is acceptable to use rare materials or tools for alternate versions of equipment.

It's simple enough, use what you can find in towns or create yourself.

Clarification. For medium level, no use of components that require books to obtain. For higher levels, you can use materials that require learning recipes from books.

So, you can use steel. For any level. It can be found or crafted, you don't need a book. Tempered steel, already requires a book. And it's better to leave it for the highest level. Or use it for medium level, but in an alternative recipe.

And if you want to use something rare. Like a nanofabricator. It's only for alternate recipes.

3. Focus on modern versions of items and materials. We live in the 21st century. Make use of its advances. Don't use leather when you can use Kevlar or synthetics. Or plastic instead of glass. Especially if you can get the appropriate protective properties or gain in comfort.

Clarification. That doesn't mean you can't use leather. It can be used, just see if you can substitute it with something else.

4. The purpose of the layers of a survivor's clothing:

Close to skin - a layer for wearing the outfit comfortably. Ventilation, temperature regulation. No or minimal protection. Encumbrance close to 0.
Normal - a layer of protection against external influences. Radiation, electricity acid and various gases. Possibly fire (I don't understand the point of fire protection at all, does it work?). Protection is there, but it is not the main thing.
Outer - a layer for armor. This is exactly what will protect you from bullets and blows.If the game allowed it, this particular layer would have to have specializations in ballistic, bash, pierce, and cut protection.
Strapped - a variety of harness. I think it's pretty self-explanatory here.

5. Composition of the survivor's equipment. Based on the purpose of the layers:

survivor's underwear
survivor suit
survivor armor
survivor's harness

My personal wish. Create complete sets of gear. Use the same materials and the same names. But it's not that big of a deal. I just don't like wearing heavy boots with a light mask. Although wearing a survivor mask with mercenary armor I dislike even more.

Details

In the midst of a cataclysmic event, the survivor must provide himself with protective gear. But there are a few problems: 1. Many different hostile factors. You can be punched, stabbed, and chopped. You may be shot at. You may be exposed to radiation, acid, or electricity. You can become infected with mushroom spores and grow a pair of mushroom tentacles... provided you survive the process. 2. In most cases, problems will arise suddenly. And you won't have extra time to prepare for that particular situation. Whether it's a surprise attack or radioactive fallout (in game conditions, a radioactive puddle or field). Or a change in wind direction that will bring a cloud of spores (not available in the game at the moment). 3. There are also different weather conditions and seasons. Or the effect of temperature on the survivor's ability to defend themselves in case of problems from point 1. Fortunately, the weather doesn't change suddenly, so it's not as critical. It doesn't change at the current time. Hence, a survivor should strive for a versatile piece of everyday gear. Basically, it's something you'll wear 24/7. And you'll only take it off in a safe place. Preferably in an airtight room, or a room with air filtration. Because, you don't want to wake up in just your underwear in a zombie attack or a sudden portal storm. And I don't think if any of us see the effects of spores on living organisms. That he would take the risk of removing his gas mask/respirator...for the rest of his life. In addition to the problems a survivor will face in a cataclysmic event, there are two other important components to consider: 1. Knowledge 2. Available materials and equipment It's easy to say, let's make a radiation suit. But how to make it and what to make it out of? So creating a survivor gear, should be based on those blueprints that are learned automatically. That doesn't mean there can't be a version that requires tempered steel (and a recipe book for steel). It means there must be a version without tempered steel. Which can then be “improved” by replacing one of the components It also means paying attention to the materials and tools used. Perhaps one of the basic versions of the equipment should be available in Innawood? That is, in the absence of some tools and materials. Remembering my argument about the survivor's mask. (#70666) I want to clarify that we should not forget that the time of action is the 21st century, not the early 20th. Focus on modern solutions, not solutions from the beginning of the last century. Even better if there are alternatives. It may be interesting to create a World War 1 gas mask, but a modern gas mask would still be better and more comfortable. And the third conclusion, there should be different versions of gear that depend on your skills. For the game, this means that in addition to the survivor gear for a level 5-6 tailor, it's a good idea to have survivor gear for a level 9-10 tailor. Where a high level gear is a copy of a low level gear, but gets extra upgrades: - more protected, with the same level of encumbrance - more comfortable, while maintaining the same level of protection - extended functionality, while maintaining the same level of protection and encumbrance (protection from radiation, electricity, climate control or extended range of comfortable temperatures... built-in flashlight, mp3 player or infrared goggles, etc.). *Note*. But not all at once. You can think of it this way. You created an outfit. Then you learned how to sew better. You learned how to build and/or incorporate electronics or process materials better and saw an opportunity to improve on what you had created before. As for the specific composition of the survivor's gear, I suggest starting by determining the purpose of the survivor's layers of clothing and armor. - Close to skin - a layer for wearing the outfit comfortably. Ventilation, temperature regulation. No or minimal protection. Encumbrance close to 0. - Normal - a layer of protection against external influences. Radiation, electricity acid and various gases. Possibly fire (I don't understand the point of fire protection at all, does it work?). Protection is there, but it is not the main thing. - Outer - a layer for armor. This is exactly what will protect you from bullets and blows.If the game allowed it, this particular layer would have to have specializations in ballistic, bash, pierce, and cut protection. - Strapped - a variety of harness. I think it's pretty self-explanatory here. The first two layers (close to skin and normal), these are the clothes you wear 24/7. This is what you are comfortable to work in, comfortable to sleep in. The outer layer, is what is tailored to the intended situation. A conditionally average option for everyday outings. High ballistic defense, for fighting robots, and high kinetic defense, for fighting against hulks. The composition of a survivor's gear. 1. Close to skin. In my mind, it's something that covers all parts of the body. You can orient yourself to the zentai. There are several varieties that provide comfort for different temperatures. So, a thermal suit or its equivalent, is an option for winter and cold labs. Something with good breathability and low heat, is an analog for summer. I'm not sure how that would work though, as he still has a lot of other clothes on. The pinnacle of development should be a climate controlled suit. (Provided that it is permissible to create such a costume from improvised means) I would prefer it to be a whole element. But it may be worth splitting it into different ones: socks, balaclava and so on. Preferably it should be durable, like the rest of the equipment 2. Normal layer. Since its purpose is protection from the outside environment, I see two designs: T1. Hood + mask for the head. Suit for body, arms and legs (one-piece or consisting of shirt and pants). Gloves for the palms of the hands. Foot socks or boots. This is a mid-level suit. Wet and acid protection. Mask with built-in gas mask/respirator, protects against gases. Partial or no protection from radiation. I'd say partial protection from electricity, but it's not in the game. *Clarification*. Hood, here rather in the role of helmet liner, which is dressed under the armor. Under the helmet, to be exact. Serves to ensure that water, radiation, debris and so on does not get under the clothes and does not come into contact with the skin. That's why it's on layer normal. Unlike the existing survivor hoods in the outer layer that are worn over the helmet. Whether it's socks or boots. Similar to the hood, these are more like socks. But can also be boots, then they occupy two layers: the normal layer and the outer layer. You can think of it as pants strapped to the boots. Or the boots make one with the pants. T2. Full protection and full coverage suit. Either combined with gas mask or mask separately. Depends on the game possibilities. You can focus on the suit from HUB. But it is an option for full protection from radiation and electricity. Without them, it makes no sense. 3. Outer layer. In my mind, this is where the most variety should be. All these light, heavy suits should move to this layer. And go from suits to survivor armor. Light armor, medium armor, heavy armor. Composition is as follows: - helmet and/or helmet + transparent visor to enhance facial protection (additional eye protection from boomers, despite the repeal of their change) - body protection based on armored vest - limb protection based on arm and leg guard (with different degrees of coverage) It would be desirable to add the ability to attach pouches. For those who like this system. In addition, this could also include dusters, survivor coats and the like. 4. Strapped layer. This is a variety of pouches, for those who do not like the molle system. As well as fasteners for auxiliary tools of the survivor. Basically a variety of electronics: flashlights, infrared goggles and the like. Provided that they can not be part of other parts of the equipment. For example, a mask or helmet. What we end up with - a survivor's underwear - survivor suit - survivor's armor - survivor's off-load

Firegear. Unless you choose to add the ability to walk through fire or tolerate hot air well. It doesn't make any sense.

Other than simply stating what it's made of.

Firegear. Unless you choose to add the ability to walk through fire or tolerate hot air well. It doesn't make any sense.

This is incorrect. People wear fire gear IRL all the time. It does not protect them from standing in 500 degree rooms, but it does guard their skin against burns from brief exposure to open flames. The game does not perfectly simulate fire, but that is not the equipment's fault.

There are also CBMs and mutations that protect against hot air but not flames, which make this kind of gear much more valuable.

medium level. Diverse skills of level 5..6. higher level. Diverse skills of level 9..10.

I don't agree. Adding two tiers of survivor gear would really just be adding more cruft. Outside of the very early game, nobody wants to use half-assed versions of the gear they want, they'll just rush the good stuff and ignore everything else. There are also many, many alternative items that people can craft at lower and higher tiers, further obviating a lower class of survivor gear. The game does not take crafting quality into account elsewhere, and it's not a good idea to arbitrarily introduce it for a single line of equipment.

Tools and materials used in the construction of the gear must be common.

That was also my intent. Kevlar, nylon, and the other materials used are very common and come already manufactured, so they make sense as something someone would want to use. Nomex is a bit less common, but it's the only material that does what it does, so it makes sense to seek out.

survivor's underwear

This does not and should not exist.

survivor armor

This is also unnecessary. Converted military armor items are Mercenary gear, not Survivor gear. Mercenary gear should prioritize ballistic protection and combat utility (IE molle). Survivor gear is modified clothing or workwear and should be more lightweight, prioritizing melee and environmental defense.

survivor's harness

I'm unclear as to what exactly this provides or should provide that isn't already provided by premade items like the chest rig. That makes it a strong candidate for obsoletion IMO.

I just don't like wearing heavy boots with a light mask

Variants should exist only when there's a clear and obvious reason for them. The existence of a heavy survivor suit does not necessitate the existence of a heavy hood, gloves, boots, pants, coat, backpack, goggles, panties, bra, etc.

Although wearing a survivor mask with mercenary armor I dislike even more.

These items are not uniforms and they are not Warcraft gear sets. Their names simply describe their function, and mixing them is no different from wearing steel plate armor over a canvas aketon. The fact that they're cobbled together from scraps of other things is an argument for making them even more piecemeal and less uniform.

Yeah, Fairyarmadillo is right about that, having all that would be a massive bloat for the current crafting list as is, and really shouldnt be taken in that direction. Its already bad enough when i open up the crafting menu right now lol

I'm unclear as to what exactly this provides or should provide that isn't already provided by premade items like the chest rig. That makes it a strong candidate for obsoletion IMO.

The survivor harness is designed currently as essentially a multipurpose lightweight vest and sling, with 3 general use pouches. Its not supposed to be really compared to other carrier vests/rigs.

It's probably not necessary now, but as Venera's limb project moves forward, it may be a good idea to roll out things like a survivor skirt or a survivor robe, which would be able to protect things like tree branches, gastropod foots, and tentacles without restricting them.

Yeah, good point.

As for Hoods, I would like to keep them as a Outer layer item, if you want a normal layer hood and mask combination, the Scavenger/nomad cowl is very much your speed.

If the hoods remain an outer item, I suggest making sure that they have thicker padding than the rest of the gear to justify that. They also should not use ballistic kevlar - ballistic soft armor IRL is completely useless on the head, as the impact of a gunshot is still going to shatter your skull or give you very serious whiplash. Only hard armor can sufficiently protect the head from bullets, and even then it's not great.

Making them out of nylon over cut-resistant kevlar would make more sense as presumably the survivor is trying to defend against being scratched and bitten on the head.

Making them out of nylon over cut-resistant kevlar would make more sense as presumably the survivor is trying to defend against being scratched and bitten on the head.

Yeah, thats what my intention was for it, no point of ballistic armor for the head when you need all or nothing. Hoods really should be more of a environmental protection item (rain and wind primarily) with some decent melee protection, but nothing that makes helmets unuseable. (and also so that they can be used with caps and the like, for post apoc streetwear drip)

Hm, what about gloves? theyre supposed to fill a gap of having gauntlet liners, right? i.e. more protective than arming gauntlets environmentally, but not for pure combat

I don't see a strong argument for survivor gloves existing at all. They'd essentially just be tactical gloves.

Tactical gloves probably need an update and a crafting recipe as they look like they haven't been touched in a while. There could even be a version with hard plastic over the knuckles, both for protection and for doing a little extra bash damage on a punch. The ones with plastic guards are sold all the time at motorcycle shops, and you often see police and security guards with them. There are also versions with steel or lead-weighted knuckle guards sold for self defense, but IDK about their rarity or legality in New England.

Regarding the two different levels. Don't take them as mk1 survivor gear and mk2 survivor gear. They may have different names. They could be made of different materials.

Or, mk2 can require mk1 crafting if desired. Rationale: I have gained new knowledge and skills, so I have improved my equipment.

I can't speak for everyone. Personally, my playstyle involves getting max levels. And I'm more likely to do high levels right away. But I've also met characters (when looking at other people's saves) who had about level 5-6 by early/mid autumn. Those players will most likely be limited to starting gear.

Additionally, remember the developers' plans for high level skills. They will be hard to access. Having an extra reward in the form of new gear. In my opinion, it's much better than not having it.

And it's not hard to create. Make a copy and change the thickness or encumbrance. Maybe add some cosmetics. That's all the cost. Unless you add some electronics functionality.

Its already bad enough when i open up the crafting menu right now lol

About the bloated crafting menu. Tell that in the armor/weapons from different steel grades topic.

UPD. I hope that doesn't sound rude.

As for Hoods, I would like to keep them as a Outer layer item, if you want a normal layer hood and mask combination, the Scavenger/nomad cowl is very much your speed.

About the hoods I wrote why I took it to a normal level. Specifically, radiation protection and spores. And that I was basing it on how it would be in reality.

Regarding the two different levels. Don't take them as mk1 survivor gear and mk2 survivor gear. They may have different names. They could be made of different materials.

We already have different "levels" of protection for the main three, along with firegear, and winterized gear, id rather not double it from 5 to 10 overall groupings... no... just no.

Additionally, remember the developers' plans for high level skills. They will be hard to access. Having an extra reward in the form of new gear. In my opinion, it's much better than not having it.

In the form of more seperate things to make? Ideally, if the system supported it, having high skills would be great at having higher quality/effectiveness gear. As it is right now though, it seems really far-fetched.

And it's not hard to create. Make a copy and change the thickness or encumbrance. Maybe add some cosmetics. That's all the cost. Unless you add some electronics functionality.

I'd Argue that any sort of electronics function should be stayed away from for being used for survivor gear, Nomad gear really should have the honor of it alone.

About the bloated crafting menu. Tell that in the armor/weapons from different steel grades topic.

Not even for the steel grades, but even just the other items.

About the hoods I wrote why I took it to a normal level. Specifically, radiation protection and spores. And that I was basing it on how it would be in reality.

I really wouldn't take a note out of Rust, and have craftable rad-resistant gear, I don't think many would trust their hood to keep out radiation, and environmental protection already protects againt fungal infection in the way you suggest, no?

I suspect a lot of the winter gear can be obsoleted now that the game has cloaks and stuff on the strapped layer. A fur or faux-fur jumpsuit on the normal layer never made a ton of sense to begin with (who's wearing plate mail over fur clothing?) - even Inuit traditional garb is just a fur parka on the outer layer over sealskin (relatively thin) pants and I think sometimes a shirt, but not even always that. Players have access to all kinds of other ways to keep warm, too - heaters, thermal electric undergarments, CBMs, mutations, and many other winter clothing items.

The winter suits can probably be scrapped, and the winter boots. The hood might be worth keeping as it makes plenty of sense to line that kind of thing with fur. Some kind of survivor parka might also be a good idea - trading protection and/or encumbrance for extra warmth.

Agreed that none of this should use electronics in any way (what would even be the point??), and definitely not rad protection. There's no reason anyone would implement the former, and the latter should probably be restricted to items factory-made by trained professionals.

For the winter gear, i think the addition of a parka would be pretty good, but i would still like to keep the winter gloves and boots along with the hood. Another part of me wants to have the winter stuff possibly use wool, and turn the warmth down a tad, because in all honesty, fur is somewhat rare in cdda, while wool is pretty commonplace, and with the wool being used as a lining, wouldnt need to have all the same properties that fur does, but your mileage may vary with what im thinking of here.

Hmm, maybe quilted wool as a component?

Quilting fabric takes foreeeeever. If its crafting times were accurately represented in the game, I would probably find something else to wear rather than spend a week grinding out an outfit for 2 months. YMMV

I wouldn't call fur rare. It's a common find in homes, animals are made out of it, there are plenty of shops that sell fur and fur clothing.

Plain wool's not necessarily a bad idea, I'm just thinking out loud.

Yeah, that's definitely something to consider, but wool overall is much more easy to source than fur for me tbqh, especially when quilts are able to be taken apart into felt sheets, meanwhile fur isn't as commonplace, and I'd rather not just add wool lined winterized survivor gear as yet another collection of stuff to bloat out the crafting menu and loot tables

Skimming this conversation at my lunch break, so I can't speak to the entire conversations, but I should figure I could leave some of my thoughts on survivor gear.

While post-apocalyptic crafted stuff is both a genre staple and conceptually reasonable, the name "survivor" is indirectly causing problems in my experience. It's often used as a prefix to denote an item being better than the baseline item without specifying how. How is a pair of survivor boots different from regular boots worn by a survivor, and is there a more descriptive name you can give it? (This is why we have the baseball bat and the nail bat, not the baseball bat and the survivor bat.)
Consider what items the player character would actually want to alter. When modifying garments and gear you do risk messing up the base design with stuff not fitting right or stress being put on seams in ways they don't really handle well. An good example is the survivor backpacks: These were added in a time where we didn't really have that much storage and were a strict upgrade. Now that we have far more different packs and more nuance from the pocket system, what do these custom backpacks offer to justify a novel design?

While post-apocalyptic crafted stuff is both a genre staple and conceptually reasonable, the name "survivor" is indirectly causing problems in my experience. It's often used as a prefix to denote an item being better than the baseline item without specifying how. How is a pair of survivor boots different from regular boots worn by a survivor, and is there a more descriptive name you can give it? (This is why we have the baseball bat and the nail bat, not the baseball bat and the survivor bat.)

That's a fair point to make regarding the nomenclature surronding pretty much all of the survivor gear (This is why we have kevlar jumpsuits instead of survivor suits now) I do remember that when the survivor boots change happened, there was talk about renaming them. That could definitely be included in this, Thanks for bringing it up!

When modifying garments and gear you do risk messing up the base design with stuff not fitting right or stress being put on seams in ways they don't really handle well. An good example is the survivor backpacks: These were added in a time where we didn't really have that much storage and were a strict upgrade. Now that we have far more different packs and more nuance from the pocket system, what do these custom backpacks offer to justify a novel design?

I can't speak from experience with tailoring, but as for the survivor backpacks, they all have STURDY, which is their main gimmick, with the only non-survivor backpack having this is the daypack. Their age really is apparent with only having one large pocket, maybe they could all have more features from the other commercial packs? Hydration pack pouches, Maybe a intergrated gas mask pouch?

Can packs be made durable in that way, and how would one do that? If the first is the case and you figure out the latter, giving them a new name should be doable.

Can packs be made durable in that way, and how would one do that? If the first is the case and you figure out the latter, giving them a new name should be doable.

Well. i'd imagine that for the survivor backpacks, that all the seams get reinforced, at least to cover up the original seam stitching, and then to armor pad the container.

Nomad and Mercenary are two names designed with a clear identity. Survivor is that it sort of is that, and easily could be better. That was my angle when I was updating the masks.

Nomad - Exodii are dimensional nomads. They make high tech gear out of salvaged stuff that emphasizes ergonomics, bionics, and climate control.

Mercenary - Former soldiers and people who know how to use their gear are mercenaries. Their stuff emphasizes molle and ballistic protection for people who can no longer rely on a convenient supply chain.

Survivor - Ordinary humans who have learned to effectively weather the cataclysm are survivors. Their stuff is generally clothing cleverly reinforced with modern materials in a way that is specifically tailored to surviving threats that have only existed since C Day.

Scavenger - As above, but the focus is on carrying capacity at the expense of armor.

Nomad often integrates with bionics. Scavenger and Survivor should often make allowances for mutations.

I do agree that pretty much every survivor item needs reviewing in the way you've suggested with the backpack, as many of them run on outdated video game logic. Backpack+ doesn't make a ton of sense imo.

"Kevlar Jumpsuit" is a bad name because a jumpsuit would not be made out of Kevlar, and the version that exists currently is not, it's just padded and lined with the stuff. It's clearly a custom job, and the Survivor name has historical precedent, is part of the game's identity, and immediately suggests the sort of thing it might be even before you read the description.

Scavenger - As above, but the focus is on carrying capacity at the expense of armor.

So does this mean that scavenger gear should make somewhat of a comeback as a armor archetype? I.e. full jumpsuit with less armor, and more pockets all over?

I do agree that pretty much every survivor item needs reviewing in the way you've suggested with the backpack, as many of them run on outdated video game logic. Backpack+ doesn't make a ton of sense imo.

Hmm, maybe for the jumpsuits, require a soldering iron to melt all the seams together? cant have a weakpoint if the material itself is melded together.

"Kevlar Jumpsuit" is a bad name because a jumpsuit would not be made out of Kevlar, and the version that exists currently is not, it's just padded and lined with the stuff. It's clearly a custom job, and the Survivor name has historical precedent, is part of the game's identity, and immediately suggests the sort of thing it might be even before you read the description.

perhaps going back to tradition with "Survivor Jumpsuit" be a better naming scheme?

So does this mean that scavenger gear should make somewhat of a comeback as a armor archetype? I.e. full jumpsuit with less armor, and more pockets all over?

I don't particularly think so, it was just an example. The game doesn't need a million custom imaginary armor sets that don't belong to any faction, does it?

Hmm, maybe for the jumpsuits, require a soldering iron to melt all the seams together? cant have a weakpoint if the material itself is melded together.

That's not how solder or soldering irons or fabric work. Solder only solders solder and solder is very brittle. It is basically only good for attaching wires and components to electrical boards, and other little things like that.

Melting parts of a kevlar garment would ruin it and provide no benefit. Furthermore, most of the items don't really have weakpoints, except the ones with steel plating where you wouldn't expect the metal to cover everything.

perhaps going back to tradition with "Survivor Jumpsuit" be a better naming scheme?

Yes, that was the point I was making all along. Survivor gear is self-explanatory and it's a long-established part of the game's identity. The only issues are that there are too many survivor items and that a lot of them don't make much sense.

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How's it going?

Did do the cowls and survivor hoods, but there's a roadblock there, as one of the crafting recipes is used as a crafting test. At this point, i might just re-do it but leave the crafting recipes alone, as they feel "off" to me as i've edited them, and possibly messed up the material ratios. It's also going to be quite slow going as of now tho, possibly a new job!!!! 🎊 I think for the others, I'll leave someone more in-tune (and available) to change up the crafting recipes. The next move forward would be me trying to change up the survivor jumpsuits, and im pretty much determined to have mild chainmail inclusion for the heavy variant, replacing the tempered steel replacement. I'm still concerned about what i could do to the gloves, mainly the light and heavy gloves, replacing the cotton material, and what could replace the monstrosity that is the BALLISTIC KEVLAR AND STEEL gloves.

I made my own gear with armor and pouches. Done as a separate mod: XXX_v2024_11_18.zip

I have several goals:

To give options that can serve as inspiration for modifying a survivor's outfit.
To show some implementation options and problems I encountered while designing. (Maybe someone can refine the solutions or solve these problems).
Get some advice.

The mod features the following gear and their recipes:

Clothing
Armor
Pouches
A system for securing the pouches (more of a different approach based on the existing Molle system)

There are only json files in the mod. But due to some changes of things, it is better to run on the version of the game after 2024-11-18-0627. (Throwing knives have changed dimensions. Of the earlier changes are changes with glue, so on versions of the game before september, you can get errors when loading).

I. A little preface

When I started working on the mod (in August) I planned to limit it to just armor. And I needed some name different from survivor. That name became the word "Hobo".
But gradually, in addition to clothing and armor, other things began to appear, which also needed names. And which also received the prefix "Hobo", just so that they were all in one place when using the spawn menu.
And also "failed" samples started to appear, which for one reason or another did not suit me. Their name contains the word EXP from the word experimental. Despite the fact that these are unsuccessful samples, they can serve as an example of non-standard realization of the equipment. (The completely unsuccessful ones have been deleted)
For EXP items, recipes require no materials and are created in 1 second. This is done on purpose. Since some items have variants obtained through transformation, it is better to focus on recipes when spawning items.
When creating things, I forgot the word "realism". The only thing I focused on was my sense of logic. That is, things should be logical from my point of view. That's why it is allocated in a separate mod.
If anyone wants to add any thing to the game, they have my full permission. But with point 4 in mind, it is advisable to check and possibly adjust. Also spelling and grammar because I don't know English.

More detailed information will be hidden under spoilers. Because I will describe what I wanted to get, what I encountered and what I got in the end. And also some problems and variants of realizations. I doubt that everyone will be interested in reading this.

II. Clothing and Armor

I wanted a comfortable outfit that could be used year round with environmental protection (radiation, electricity and acid). At the same time, protection from damage was in 4th place (encumbrance, comfort in temperature, protection from the environment). An additional condition was the use of the same materials (using the same consumables to repair the equipment). The following materials were chosen: Lycra and nylon (acid protection), Kevlar and its types, plastic and rubber, where they were required by sense. I deliberately refused any kind of steel: heavy, conducts electricity. And I deliberately chose materials according to their protective properties. There is no point in using steel if rigid Kevlar gives comparable protection. The layers of the outfit were distributed as follows: - `SKINTIGHT` is a layer for thermal comfort - `NORMAL` is a layer for protection from the outside environment and thermal comfort - `OUTER` is a layer for protection against "monsters" For comfort, it was planned to use an advanced jumpsuit (`SKINTIGHT`+`NORMAL`). Analog of the nomad's suit, with power from the built-in battery (~30 minutes) and the ability to connect to UPS. And also with the ability to adjust the climate control: heating, cooling with different levels and different power consumption. The problem is that I haven't found a way to implement this. The suit can be transformed, but the `relic_data` will remain the same. It would be possible to do without `relic_data`, using negative `warmth` values. But I don't like this option. Since the outfit was made up of parts, I couldn't come up with a logical rationale for radiation protection. Especially given the breathability. An additional problem is protection from water and electricity. I don't believe it is possible to protect the suit from this exposure. Therefore it would be susceptible to damage. Added to these problems were the problems of helmet implementation. In the end I gave up on any climate controlled option. Originally there were two versions of the helmet. The first is the regular helmet. The second is an advanced helmet. We have robots that have AI modules and sensor arrays. Theoretically, a survivor could use these sensors to create an advanced helmet. (Using virtual reality goggles and a chain of recipes to build the individual parts and program it all) The plan was to improve visibility (night vision without green ~15 tiles), improve hearing, geiger counter, smartphone functionality including music, weather forecast and vision correction. But it was supposed to become blind and deaf if it ran out of power. As well as breaking down from water (no problem) and electricity (big problem). It's a big problem because it's the last thing you want in a fight with a mob of zombies and a shocker. And it will likely be the last thing your character sees. And since I couldn't find a logical justification for setting flags with immunity to electricity (whatever it actually is), I refused to use any "advanced" versions (suit and helmet). Eventually all elements don't conduct electricity, but a shocker can still fry a character. (And becomes a high priority target.) The only environmental protection left is acid protection. And partial protection from radiation (`RAD_RESIST`) for the respirator. Unfortunately, I couldn't find a way to create a “set” of equipment. So that immunity only appears when all parts of the set are used. And that the pieces of equipment are powered by a single power source. (And so it doesn't waste charge on the rest of the electronics) Fun fact. If you assign the `IS_UPS` flag to a piece of clothing and add another piece: ``` "use_action": { "type": "link_up", "cable_length": 0, "targets": [ "no_link", "ups" ], "moves": 50 } ``` Then you can connect one part to another. And it works if things have internal batteries and `USE_UPS` flag. But it also works without connection. Also, if you remove the flag or the battery, the connection doesn't work. The second fun fact is using inherits_flags to pass a flag. You can build a fuse for electronics. When the item itself is protected from electricity. But it can only work when there is an object in its pocket that is not protected from electricity. Accordingly, if caught in the electricity, the fuse fails. The item cannot work without it and the player has a choice. Repair the fuse or replace it. There are some difficulties here. In the end I deleted all implementation variants, because I did not find an acceptable solution for the planned armor. In the end, there was still a requirement for a comfortable temperature. And the basis for the solution was ECWCS GenIII. In brief, 7 layers with their own properties. Each item in the kit belongs to a specific layer. And the combination of layers is tailored to specific climatic conditions. For example, three layers L1, L2, L3 are used for underwear. You can wear them separately or wear L1+L2 or L1+L3 or L2+L3. But in my opinion it was redundant. And it's hard to calculate `warmth` values for a certain temperature. (Because you can lose 10 units of temperature just because you want to sleep. #77324) Anyway, here is the list of clothing and armor items, as well as the warmth value for summer and winter sets: ![pict 1](https://github.com/user-attachments/assets/69de11b7-997f-44f8-8830-a0a944edb4af) For armor, three options are listed. That's because it can transform. Instead of using the `HOOD` flag, I thought: why not. So the armor can be transformed, i.e. put on a hood. And you can also put a neck gaiter on your face (respirator to be exact). It will give armor, warmth (this is the main reason) and encumbrance. Winter versions of the clothing, have more warmth, more encumbrance and the same level of protection. A new material was used for this, with no protective properties. #77293 (topic closed without realization). That is why it is only there in mod. Its point is to give credibility for warm stuff. Because you can put any thickness without increasing protection. And a winter jacket 2 centimeters thick looks more convincing than a jacket 2 millimeters thick. But there are problems. For one thing, the mouth freezes. And neighboring body parts don't warm it. #77329 Perhaps there will be an additional item, a scarf (or one of the existing ones will be used). But I'll solve this issue if the character lives through the winter. The second problem, is wind. Wind protection either doesn't work or protects against something else. So no motorcycles, especially in winter. #77236 I will not dwell on the protective properties, there is nothing new here. I will note that there are problems with water permeability and rain protection. Flags do not work correctly (or I misunderstand how they should work). (There are corresponding error reports: #77383, #76147 ). But separately I will stop on experimental variants of realization. **1. Operation of ablative armor** While trying to figure out how ablative armor works, I discovered that its coverage stacks if it is on the same layer and protects the same body part. **Experimental armored suit "Scales"** is an exploitation of this feature. This suit protects the torso, arms and legs. And it has 30 pockets for ablative armor, 10 for each part of the body (I didn't divide it into right and left). One scale can be placed in each pocket. The pockets have an `item_restriction` restriction. For each body part, a different type of scale **Experimental "Scales" (torso)**, **Experimental "Scale" (arms)** and **Experimental "Scale" (legs)**. Each scale covers 10% of the corresponding body part. Correspondingly, 10 scales cover 100% of the body part. (I experimented with the torso and created a monster that only hits the torso). When a scale is damaged, it turns into water and flows out of the pocket. (I didn't find a way for complete destruction, so I used `"non_functional": "water"`). In the end, a strong enough blow, breaks one scale, which doesn't affect the suit's defense characteristics in any way, but adds a weakness. And the more scales are broken, the more weaknesses in the armor. There are minuses as well. Ideally, the coverage value should be 1%. Maybe 5%. But that's a minimum of 20 pockets for one body part. If we imagine that this is used to protect every sub-part, the number of pockets increases to huge values. Of course it's not complicated, take it and copy it. But in my opinion, such entries are awkward to read. It would help to be able to put several items into one ablative pocket. And then the number of pockets could be significantly reduced. But this requires a code change. **2. Rigid armor layers and armor repair** I don't really like the fact that armor damage doesn't take into account which layer is damaged. For soft materials, this is still acceptable. But for armor with rigid elements, it's not very plausible. And I see two options. - The first option is to specify only rigid materials in the materials section. I used this option for the helmet, respirator and arm and leg protection. Yes, rubber, plastic and nylon are used for the armor layers, but only rigid Kevlar is suitable for repair. - The second option, is to separate the rigid layer into a separate piece of armor and place it in an ablative pocket. As an example of the implementation of the second option, consider: **EXP vambraces** and **EXP greaves**. They are also different from each other. **EXP vambraces** protects both left and right arms at the same time. But uses two types of rigid armor: **EXP rigid covering (left vambraces)** and **EXP rigid covering (right vambraces)**. **EXP greaves** can only protect one arm (`sided: true`). But uses one type of **EXP rigid covering armor (greaves)**. Experiments have shown that **EXP rigid covering (greaves)** protects the hand on which EXP greaves are worn. Even though **EXP rigid covering (greaves)** says `"covers": [ "leg_l", "leg_r" ]`. The main thing is to set `sided: true` for it too. And `non_functional` is used for all rigid coverages. The scheme is as follows: 1 breakage = reduction of coverage from 95 to 85 (not really, since it protects 2 body parts with different % coverage) 2 breakage = reduction of coverage from 85 to 75 3 breakage = reducing coverage to 25%, reducing material thickness and increasing encumbrance 4 breakage should destroy the item, but I don't know how to implement it, so I limited it to 3. Naturally the number of breakages and their consequences can be completely different. For example, take away 5% of `coverage` until a certain level is reached. Then decrease the `thickness` and/or increase the `encumbrance`. If this element consists of several layers, you can change `covered_by_mat`. And thus simulate the gradual degradation of armor. You can add recipes to restore armor. The disadvantages are that the player needs to carry a supply of these elements. And since they are hard armor elements, they must have the appropriate volume. In general, carrying a separate backpack with a lot of armor elements for replacement is not what I would like.

III. Pouches and fastening system

My character carries a lot of different items that can be needed at any time. Weapons and tools, medicine and other consumables. So I needed new pouches and an attachment system for these pouches. Which would satisfy two conditions: 1. Adequate ability to customize whitelists and the number of items carried 2. The ability to hide all the items I desire. I.e. to partially solve the problems described in #76272 **1. Adequate ability to customize whitelists and the number of items carried** What is needed to fulfill the first condition? You need separate pockets for each type of item the player wants to take with him. Then this pocket can be restricted. And its volume will serve as a limit for the number of items. (Or change the game code and add the ability to set the number of items for each item in the whitelist). But we will never guess what the player wants to carry. It's just not possible. But it is possible to anticipate a little. For myself I have created a pouch: **Hobo IFAK**. ![pict 2](https://github.com/user-attachments/assets/a06e60ab-fa79-4777-a431-7a0b1f2ddb47) It has an internal volume of 1.5 liters. And it has 16 pockets. 15 pockets have `item_restriction`. And their volume is designed to hold a certain number of items. ``` { "pocket_type": "CONTAINER", "max_contains_volume": "162 ml", "max_contains_weight": "420 g", "moves": 100, "description": "bandage x 6\nsome makeshift bandage x 10", "item_restriction": [ "bandages", "bandages_makeshift", "bandages_makeshift_boiled", "bandages_makeshift_bleached" ] }, ``` And this pouch completely covers my medication needs for one hike. And if I don't need any of it, I can simply prohibit placing items in certain pockets. The last 16th pocket is unrestricted, so you can put anything else you need and fit in there. Of course, it could be implemented using `flag_restriction`. And set appropriate flags for drugs: antibiotic, antiseptic, anti-radiation and so on. But I didn't want to change too much. Additionally, the `Hobo small IFAK` pouch has been created. It has fewer pockets and some of the pockets have no restrictions. (Instead of 7 pockets for certain pills there are 3 pockets for any pills). Just as an alternative. I also created myself pouches for caltrops, throwing knives, grappling hook and a pouch for 1 STANAG 30 round magazine. But there's nothing special about them. But what about the other stuff? I carried a nail gun at one time. Hardly anyone would have guessed that I would need a special pouch. One solution, realized by example: the **EXP junk pouch**. It's a 2 liter, 4 kilo pouch. Which can be transformed into another pouch. The main idea: a "virtual" division of the internal volume into several parts. Ideally into any number of parts. But this requires a code change. For now, it is simply a transformation of a pouch into another pouch. The total volume and weight remains the same. And the length of the items to be placed does not change. ![pict 3](https://github.com/user-attachments/assets/e6c51b39-fc29-4432-bd9c-9170079beb48) That's what it would look like. And that's the same reason why it went experimental. I was only able to realize it after I started drawing the transformation chains. And as you can see, I abandoned it when it was finished. And it took 600 lines. The main problem, though, is not to get confused about what is already fixed and what is not. Surely there's a way to simplify it even more. Second solution. If we can't guess. Let's just add the ability to merge different pouches into one. I.e. make it modular: **EXPerimental modular pouch (base)** which turns into **EXPerimental modular pouch (finished)**. We take the base, add to it the possibility of transformation and interaction with finished pouches: ``` "use_action": [ { "type": "transform", "menu_text": "transform", "target": "EXP_modular_pouch_finished", "moves": 0 }, { "type": "attach_molle", "size": 5 }, { "type": "detach_molle" } ] ``` We take arbitrary pouches (any existing ones) and attach them. After that, we transform the base into a ready-made pouch. The main difference: ``` "use_action": [ { "type": "transform", "menu_text": "transform", "target": "EXP_modular_pouch_base", "moves": 0 }, { "type": "detach_molle" } ], "flags": [ "PALS_LARGE" ] ``` In that you can't attach other pouches to the finished pouch. But it can be attached as a pouch. (If an item has `attach_molle` and the `PALS_...` flag, it can be attached to itself. After that it disappears) Then it would be possible to create a series of pouches with a certain step. This would allow you to create modular pouches with the right number of pockets and the most suitable volume. But this allows you to bypass the restrictions on the number of pouches. After all, there's nothing to stop you from taking that pouch and attaching it to a new base. And then repeat it many more times. You could potentially duplicate the molle system. So that one system would work with pre-made pouches, and the other would work with modular ones. Or add some other options. But all this requires code changes. **2. The ability to hide all the items I desire.** What remains to be solved is the issue of the ability to hide required positions. And the solution in principle is quite simple. We need two different items to which the pouches are attached. In the first item they are always hidden, in the second one vice versa. And this is where the problems begin. To realize this, we need to spread the items on different parts of the body. And it is desirable that one item does not occupy several parts of the body. I will explain the problem with several body parts. Let's say we have an offload that occupies the torso and legs (analogous to a nomad's offload). In reality, we take the pouch and hang it on our chest. Encumbering only the chest. In the game, we burden both chest and legs at the same time. You could use `volume_encumber_modifier` and make the encumbrance only go to the torso. But in reality, you could attach a second pouch to the leg (+1 to encumbrance). And get +1 to the torso and +1 to the legs. In game, it would be +2 to torso or +0 to legs. Without the modifier (default=1), it would be +2 to torso and +2 to legs. Set it to 0.5? Well, add a third pouch and you get 1.5 to torso and legs instead of 2 and 1. And that's assuming the same pouches. Set a hard limit on encumbrance: [0, 10]? We take a 1 liter pouch, attach it to the offload and fill it completely with items. We get 10 encumbrance. Take the second pouch and attach it empty. We get 5 encumbrance, although according to the facts the volume of carried items has not changed. And the variant of realization on which I stopped (for the moment). This is the creation of 6 objects **PALS (...)**. Each of them occupies a different part of the body: - upper torso - lower torso - left upper arm - right upper arm - left upper leg - right upper leg Each part can have its own pouch attached to it. But each part has its own limit on the number of attached pouches. (Arms 1, legs 3, torso 5 and 7 for upper and lower parts. Total of 20 modules). These items imitate the corresponding PALS bindings, which in reality would be sewn onto the corresponding body parts. Each can be unfolded and folded, which helps you sort the displayed items. The second solution is to place these parts in the ablative pockets of the base. **EXP PALS** + **EXP PALS (torso)** and so on. And then the damage will hit the pouches and damage them. It will be possible to set size limits. So for hands you can set the maximum length of 18 centimeters. And in the pouch attached to the **EXP PALS (left arm)**, which is placed in the ablative pocket with a length limit of 18 centimeters. You won't be able to put items longer than 18 centimeters. But the problem is that if you reverse the order and put an item longer than 18 centimeters in the pouch first. It can still be attached to the *EXP PALS*. And the item will be in a pocket it shouldn't fit in. What happens to it when it is saved and loaded? I don't know. So it could potentially cause items to go missing. In the end, I plan to use *PALS* and pouches. They allow you to adjust the number of items and hide items you don't need. Here's an example: ![pict 4](https://github.com/user-attachments/assets/6b0f6306-2335-454a-a0c2-6f262767923e) This is the inventory, the pouch is attached to the leg ( dont pay attention to the side). And this is what the activation window looks like: ![pict 5](https://github.com/user-attachments/assets/d238c80e-fc5d-4c75-8fe3-85b8309f7139) As you can see, you can use the entire contents of the pouch. But let's say we don't need it. Then we take the pouch and attach it to the PALS (left upper leg). The result: ![pict 6](https://github.com/user-attachments/assets/85d24062-b9ba-4143-9507-5a150a13146d)

Well, i'm booting up the game now, and a few things jump out at me, especially with some of the balancing (I know I know, balance wasnt exactly a consideration:

Starting off with the really good stuff:

I do like the thought of using rigid kevlar plates, I don't believe they're used that often in-game, outside of like, Ballistic Mask, EOD Suit, and the Helmets (and the hub-01 stuff ofc, i'll get too that point a bit later)
I do commend the utter amount of work and effort that has gone into this, it's quite indepth, and i do like the solution that you've come up with for the problem that plagues MOLLE items (namely the issue of some attachments being unfeasible to attach to some MOLLE gear irl, namely the assault pack as mentioned in #76272) And would definitely like to see it come to fruition.
having a back holster be a possibility for a vest is a good idea, helps keep the encumb system just that bit simpler. (Something along these lines were mentioned in a previous discussion about the tac vest, and namely how the hydration bladder pocket is non-existant, and a ancient issue i made was about the inclusion of some vest mounted packs, or even backpack-eted chest rigs, which now that i think about it, i could likely make steps to making it possible.)

Now onto some criticisms:

Some of the gear is quite complicated, namely the gloves, helmet, mask, and for some items, for little reason. The gloves are quite similar to the ones in the hub-01 enviro suit/hazmat suit, which i'd doubt the avg. joe would be able to make, and I feel should be restricted to stuff that bunker nerds can design.
The Hobo armor is quite thick and sturdy (Great!), however, i would say that any significant head protection should come from the helmet. I would not oppose having a hood, but it can't have ballistic kevlar to the same thickness as rigid kevlar from the helmet, and no kevlar for the mouth. (I CAN make a exception for the nape+ears, as it's really only a sheet wrapping around the nape and ears, and maybe in a bigger vein, maybe have craftable nape protection for napeless helms, i.e. hardhats and ballistic helmets.) The throat armor is doubled up, having nearly 10-11mm of material thickness around the throat, waaaay too thick (and likely a error)
I'd like to keep molle out of the way of survivor stuff, and would rather have a system that uses clips and attachment pockets instead.
any specialised military gear should be pretty much molle only, or using something like the Tac Vest

The throat armor is doubled up, having nearly 10-11mm of material thickness around the throat, waaaay too thick (and likely a error)

This is not a mistake. If you remove the hood, it will rest on your shoulders and/or back, i.e. add extra layers of material.

Armor has a collar (~30% neck protection) and throat protection (100%). The collar is x3 in thickness. Imitation of a folded hood. Throat protection x2 in thickness, simulating a folded gaiter. If you look, after transformation, the thickness on the respective body parts decreases. But it adds a hood protecting the head (100%) and a gaiter protecting the mouth (100%). But yeah, I have no idea what ballistic kevlar is or how soft it really is.

There's nothing stopping you from removing the ballistic kevlar or reducing its thickness. Or remove that transformation.

CleverRaven / Cataclysm-DDA