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CleverRaven / Cataclysm-DDA

Cataclysm - Dark Days Ahead. A turn-based survival game set in a post-apocalyptic world.
http://cataclysmdda.org
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Additional Proposals to Fix and Rebalance Survivor Gear #74188

Open Kantonine opened 1 month ago

Kantonine commented 1 month ago

Is your feature request related to a problem? Please describe.

Following #73147, the topic of what the survivor gear should be has been brought up again. Which leads me to discuss the major issue of it: The purpose of survivor gear is quite frankly all over the place. Some pieces, Like the Scavenger set, has been (mostly, the cowl hasnt been touched) fully redesigned to be a post apocalyptic upgrade of ballistic armor, but the other pieces are very inconsistent with eachother.

If we're going by what fairyarmadillo has commented about the matter (Shout out to them btw, for inspiring me to follow through on this) The general premises for the survivor gear would be:

  1. Acidproof and bileproof (and by extension weather repellant) Now just weather repellant, following the intent to NOT have Acid/Bile interactions with armor
  2. Reasonably maintainable and craftable
  3. Practical, but not the best, to allow the Hub 01, Nomad gear, Ballistic military armor, and Plate armor to shine in their respective catagories, while still being decently protective for the average cataclysm survivor who hasn't found the good stuff yet

This leaves a fair amount of leeway for what the items should be made into, with Fairyarmadillo himself (again, credit to them, you can read #71700 to read his writing on the topic)

As of right now, quite a few things need to be changed, or otherwise looked at

Solution you would like.

Split up the task of redesigning the survivor gear, using this Feature Request as a staging ground and general discussion for it, and doing the relevant PR's as seperate for each item type changed I.E. one PR for jumpsuits, another for gloves, another for hoods, and so on. The PR's will be marked as draft only, to ensure that all the relevant changes should be done only when ready for merging.

Describe alternatives you have considered.

Maybe this could be condensed a bit more? I dont really know, but this was due for a long time coming now.

Additional context

I have nothing personally, but anyone who wants to give feedback and other comments are very much welcome and encouraged

fairyarmadillo commented 1 month ago

The changes I intended to make are no longer relevant as it was made clear that bile/acid interactions with armor are not something that the devs want in the game.

With that being the case, I do not believe there is a pressing need to do anything at all with survivor gear. It is all essentially fine.

Kantonine commented 1 month ago

The changes I intended to make are no longer relevant as it was made clear that bile/acid interactions with armor are not something that the devs want in the game.

With that being the case, I do not believe there is a pressing need to do anything at all with survivor gear. It is all essentially fine.

Thanks for the clarification! I will take note of that going forward, but I'll still try my hand at making the other stuff ingame a bit more consistent with the new armor system, and what materials should be used for survivor gear.

fairyarmadillo commented 1 month ago

Well to expand on one issue, kevlar is to my knowledge not an appropriate material for garment facing (facing refers to the outer part of a garment, liner refers to the inner), and is not something you would want to make a jumpsuit out of. Most kevlar is a slightly nappy material with a wide weave that easily catches on stuff. It does not resist abrasion and wear very well, and in fact these properties are what allow it to do its job. A blade slicing across kevlar catches on the fibers, which pull against the weave, and distribute the shear force out across the item. This works great for protection, but it requires that the garment does not have any wear and tear on it. This is why kevlar protective items are usually either disposable (like cut-resistant sleeves) or the kevlar is an inner layer.

Some IRL experimentation with different materials led me to the conclusion that a good configuration for the armor as it has historically been described would be:

Light survivor suit: A layer of cut-resistant Kevlar sandwiched between a lycra liner and a nylon jumpsuit. I have crafted this item in real life. It was a bit warm, but other than that quite comfortable. This item would be great for battling zombies, not so great for getting shot at - thus the term "survivor" makes a lot of sense. It's stuff MacGuyvered together for battling the undead. Survivor suit: Same as above, with a soft ballistic vest (the item is called Kevlar vest in CDDA) sewn inside of it. I have crafted this item in real life. The ballistic vest is somewhat restrictive, but it's something you could wear around all day if you had to. Heavy survivor suit: Same as above, but with a steel breastplate and metal brigandine sewn over the jumpsuit. This one is the most speculative as I have no experience with metal armor. You could also include things like the ballistic collar, groin guard, and shoulder guards that come with the OTV vests the Marine Corps use.

image My IRL survivor suit. A polyester jumpsuit with a thick cut-resistant kevlar liner and a 3A Kevlar Vest sewn into it. It is comfortable, durable, and flexible.

Nylon itself is very tough, and the very unscientific testing I can do with the suit I have suggests that it could feasibly offer some protection relative to its comfort level. I cannot cut through it even with a very sharp folding knife, and it resists stabs enough to suggest that it would reduce but not eliminate injury. A quick jab penetrated to a depth of 1/4" but could not easily go further.

Obviously I am not going to get shot while wearing this thing, but the vest is a 3A, which is supposedly going to stop anything short of 223.

My intent for the game was to have this be the format for survivor suits, with a layer of Flexseal (butyl rubber) sprayed over the outside to make a garment that was very good at resisting acid and provided moderate protection against everything else. Given that fluid attacks are out, there's no reason for the rubberizing, but the rest of it might work if you want to do something like:

Light survivor suit: Lycra 0.2mm, (cut-resistant) Kevlar 4mm, nylon 1mm.

That would work out to 5 bash, 13 cut, 11 ballistic protection. Quite good for the normal layer, and a nice complement to a variety of different possible outer and under items. If the protection values seem too high, consider reducing the Kevlar to 2.5mm, for parity with the cut-resistant apron.

Survivor suit: Lycra 0.2mm, (cut-resistant) Kevlar 4mm, ( 90%torso only: nylon 0.3mm and ballistic Kevlar 3.3mm), nylon 1mm.

That would work out to 5 bash, 13 cut, 11 ballistic protection, except on the torso it would go up to 10 20 29 90% of the time. Padding could be added to the elbows and knees I suppose, but I'm not sure it would be worth the extra encumbrance. Again, if the protection values seem too high, consider reducing the cut-resistant Kevlar to 2.5mm, for parity with the cut-resistant apron.

Survivor hoods, dusters, and trenchcoats could follow a similar pattern to the light survivor suit, and do not need light/normal/heavy versions. I have a heavy-duty Serbian army surplus parka that already feels quite insulating and could easily take a kevlar liner.

I do not believe leather is a good material for these items, they should be restricted to synthetics as those are readily available and offer better performance in all cases. The one place I did use leather was in #70666 - the lederschutzmasken is a historical example of treated leather being gas-proof, which was a handy trait for a hand-crafted gas mask that can fit over a mutant snout.

Survivor firegear uses a rare and tempermental material, Nomex. Nomex actually sucks to work with IRL and you have to keep it out of direct sunlight. It also causes cancer and is sort of hard to find. I think you'd just replace the nylon in the light survivor suit with nomex to get a survivor firesuit, and I think it would be reasonable to never include the ballistic vest as it's not going to help you in a fire.

Survivor boots are cool but I think all variants should be removed except the standard Survivor Boot, which is probably fine as-is. It's a kevlar, nomex, leather, and steel boot that resists acid and fire which is about all you could ask for out of an apocalypse shoe. Everything else is unnecessary bloat.

It would also be possible to ditch the "survivor suit" item and replace it with the proposed light survivor suit, as this would be functionally identical to wearing a light survivor suit over a kevlar vest. This would shrink the way-too-big list of survivor items and prevent cheese like wearing a survivor suit over a kevlar vest without penalty.

fairyarmadillo commented 1 month ago

image

Additional detail of the kevlar inner - don't mind my crappy basting here, I was just quickly throwing it together. I'd use much more durable stitching on an item I was wearing into battle. I didn't include a lycra liner on my suit IRL but it does feel a bit itchy and I think wearing it long-term without one would reduce protection as the fabric rubbed against my underclothes.

One thing I think really needs a second look is all the survivor dive gear. Kevlar has the feel and weight of acrylic wool, and it isn't as stretchy as the stuff they make wetsuits out of. It is my strong opinion that all of that crap should be obsoleted, as it's one of the worst examples of the bad "item plus kevlar equals better item" logic.

Kantonine commented 1 month ago

Thats a very good point about the diving gear, I dont think that stuff is really used much anyways, and if kevlar itself acts antithetical to diving gear, makes sense to obsolete it. The additional comment about kevlar uv degradation is also pretty good, i remember bringing that up for when the survivor boot changes happened. As for the firesuit, Nomex also degrades under uv, no? Would thicker treated leather be appropriate as a overlayer for the firesuit, or is the treated leather not viable enough for fire resistance. I do remember reading a tidbit that firefighter helmets used to be made of cuir bouilli as it held up against fire, while still being impact resistant, maybe it could be used for the fire hood? (this just makes it more apparent that cuir bouilli needs to be in-game as a actual material, and not just reg leather but thicker)

Also: FYI That survivor suit is badass, you have a template for it? (sorry, just had to gush over it a little. eheheh)

fairyarmadillo commented 1 month ago

I think survivor firegear should just use whatever materials that firefighter equipment uses, with some additional considerations made for combat.

Survivor firesuit: Just add 2mm of kevlar under a flame-resistant suit. Survivor fire hood: ditto for the flame-resistant hood.

There's no need for survivor fireboots or firegloves. They're just cruft, they're outdated (they don't even have rubber soles!) and they wouldn't do anything that the turnout gloves and boots don't already do. Similarly, the existing turnout coat is already everything a survivor would want and more, so I don't think a special survivor-y version would make much sense.

I also don't think the UV degradation needs to be modeled as it takes way longer than would be relevant in the game. It's just one reason you don't see Kevlar used on the outside of things. Some items, like firesuits (https://www.uniformswarehouse.com/elbeco-flame-resistant-nomex-reg-lll-a-jumpsuit-yellow-47554.html) and military flight suits are made solely of a layer of Nomex that is exposed to the outside world, but these items are not intended for years of daily service and are frequently replaced.

I don't have a template for the suit, it's just a military surplus utility jumpsuit made of polyester, and the lining is just salvaged from disassembled cut-resistant sleeves, two layers thick. I darted the waist and cuffed the legs to fit me better, and attached the ballistic vest by sewing in some velcro strips. I chose polyester for the jumpsuit as it has great acid resistance, but that material is best represented by nylon/synthetic fabric in the game. You can find 'em all over the internet for very cheap.

Something else I thought of: One argument for making survivor items instead of just wearing military gear is that a custom-built item makes sense for a mutant who can't wear people clothes. It's probably not necessary now, but as Venera's limb project moves forward, it may be a good idea to roll out things like a survivor skirt or a survivor robe, which would be able to protect things like tree branches, gastropod foots, and tentacles without restricting them.

IdleSol commented 1 month ago

When creating survivor gear, I suggest focusing on the following:

1. There are two technological levels:

By diverse skills, I don't just mean tailoring, but the rest of the production skills as well. All the way up to cooking, if you can come up with the appropriate recipe. In principle, you can use combat skills as well. But reduce them to more reasonable values.

Higher level gear, this is mid-level gear with a slight improvement in one of the parameters or added functionality, without changing the parameters.

Example. Medium level pants with 10 defense and 10 encumbrance. Then these higher level pants can be with 10 defense and 5 encumbrance. Or with 15 protection and 10 encumbrance. Or with 10 protection and 10 encumbrance but with heating.

2. Tools and materials used in the construction of the gear must be common. It is acceptable to use rare materials or tools for alternate versions of equipment.

It's simple enough, use what you can find in towns or create yourself.

Clarification. For medium level, no use of components that require books to obtain. For higher levels, you can use materials that require learning recipes from books.

So, you can use steel. For any level. It can be found or crafted, you don't need a book. Tempered steel, already requires a book. And it's better to leave it for the highest level. Or use it for medium level, but in an alternative recipe.

And if you want to use something rare. Like a nanofabricator. It's only for alternate recipes.

3. Focus on modern versions of items and materials. We live in the 21st century. Make use of its advances. Don't use leather when you can use Kevlar or synthetics. Or plastic instead of glass. Especially if you can get the appropriate protective properties or gain in comfort.

Clarification. That doesn't mean you can't use leather. It can be used, just see if you can substitute it with something else.

4. The purpose of the layers of a survivor's clothing:

5. Composition of the survivor's equipment. Based on the purpose of the layers:

My personal wish. Create complete sets of gear. Use the same materials and the same names. But it's not that big of a deal. I just don't like wearing heavy boots with a light mask. Although wearing a survivor mask with mercenary armor I dislike even more.

Details In the midst of a cataclysmic event, the survivor must provide himself with protective gear. But there are a few problems: 1. Many different hostile factors. You can be punched, stabbed, and chopped. You may be shot at. You may be exposed to radiation, acid, or electricity. You can become infected with mushroom spores and grow a pair of mushroom tentacles... provided you survive the process. 2. In most cases, problems will arise suddenly. And you won't have extra time to prepare for that particular situation. Whether it's a surprise attack or radioactive fallout (in game conditions, a radioactive puddle or field). Or a change in wind direction that will bring a cloud of spores (not available in the game at the moment). 3. There are also different weather conditions and seasons. Or the effect of temperature on the survivor's ability to defend themselves in case of problems from point 1. Fortunately, the weather doesn't change suddenly, so it's not as critical. It doesn't change at the current time. Hence, a survivor should strive for a versatile piece of everyday gear. Basically, it's something you'll wear 24/7. And you'll only take it off in a safe place. Preferably in an airtight room, or a room with air filtration. Because, you don't want to wake up in just your underwear in a zombie attack or a sudden portal storm. And I don't think if any of us see the effects of spores on living organisms. That he would take the risk of removing his gas mask/respirator...for the rest of his life. In addition to the problems a survivor will face in a cataclysmic event, there are two other important components to consider: 1. Knowledge 2. Available materials and equipment It's easy to say, let's make a radiation suit. But how to make it and what to make it out of? So creating a survivor gear, should be based on those blueprints that are learned automatically. That doesn't mean there can't be a version that requires tempered steel (and a recipe book for steel). It means there must be a version without tempered steel. Which can then be “improved” by replacing one of the components It also means paying attention to the materials and tools used. Perhaps one of the basic versions of the equipment should be available in Innawood? That is, in the absence of some tools and materials. Remembering my argument about the survivor's mask. (#70666) I want to clarify that we should not forget that the time of action is the 21st century, not the early 20th. Focus on modern solutions, not solutions from the beginning of the last century. Even better if there are alternatives. It may be interesting to create a World War 1 gas mask, but a modern gas mask would still be better and more comfortable. And the third conclusion, there should be different versions of gear that depend on your skills. For the game, this means that in addition to the survivor gear for a level 5-6 tailor, it's a good idea to have survivor gear for a level 9-10 tailor. Where a high level gear is a copy of a low level gear, but gets extra upgrades: - more protected, with the same level of encumbrance - more comfortable, while maintaining the same level of protection - extended functionality, while maintaining the same level of protection and encumbrance (protection from radiation, electricity, climate control or extended range of comfortable temperatures... built-in flashlight, mp3 player or infrared goggles, etc.). *Note*. But not all at once. You can think of it this way. You created an outfit. Then you learned how to sew better. You learned how to build and/or incorporate electronics or process materials better and saw an opportunity to improve on what you had created before. As for the specific composition of the survivor's gear, I suggest starting by determining the purpose of the survivor's layers of clothing and armor. - Close to skin - a layer for wearing the outfit comfortably. Ventilation, temperature regulation. No or minimal protection. Encumbrance close to 0. - Normal - a layer of protection against external influences. Radiation, electricity acid and various gases. Possibly fire (I don't understand the point of fire protection at all, does it work?). Protection is there, but it is not the main thing. - Outer - a layer for armor. This is exactly what will protect you from bullets and blows.If the game allowed it, this particular layer would have to have specializations in ballistic, bash, pierce, and cut protection. - Strapped - a variety of harness. I think it's pretty self-explanatory here. The first two layers (close to skin and normal), these are the clothes you wear 24/7. This is what you are comfortable to work in, comfortable to sleep in. The outer layer, is what is tailored to the intended situation. A conditionally average option for everyday outings. High ballistic defense, for fighting robots, and high kinetic defense, for fighting against hulks. The composition of a survivor's gear. 1. Close to skin. In my mind, it's something that covers all parts of the body. You can orient yourself to the zentai. There are several varieties that provide comfort for different temperatures. So, a thermal suit or its equivalent, is an option for winter and cold labs. Something with good breathability and low heat, is an analog for summer. I'm not sure how that would work though, as he still has a lot of other clothes on. The pinnacle of development should be a climate controlled suit. (Provided that it is permissible to create such a costume from improvised means) I would prefer it to be a whole element. But it may be worth splitting it into different ones: socks, balaclava and so on. Preferably it should be durable, like the rest of the equipment 2. Normal layer. Since its purpose is protection from the outside environment, I see two designs: T1. Hood + mask for the head. Suit for body, arms and legs (one-piece or consisting of shirt and pants). Gloves for the palms of the hands. Foot socks or boots. This is a mid-level suit. Wet and acid protection. Mask with built-in gas mask/respirator, protects against gases. Partial or no protection from radiation. I'd say partial protection from electricity, but it's not in the game. *Clarification*. Hood, here rather in the role of helmet liner, which is dressed under the armor. Under the helmet, to be exact. Serves to ensure that water, radiation, debris and so on does not get under the clothes and does not come into contact with the skin. That's why it's on layer normal. Unlike the existing survivor hoods in the outer layer that are worn over the helmet. Whether it's socks or boots. Similar to the hood, these are more like socks. But can also be boots, then they occupy two layers: the normal layer and the outer layer. You can think of it as pants strapped to the boots. Or the boots make one with the pants. T2. Full protection and full coverage suit. Either combined with gas mask or mask separately. Depends on the game possibilities. You can focus on the suit from HUB. But it is an option for full protection from radiation and electricity. Without them, it makes no sense. 3. Outer layer. In my mind, this is where the most variety should be. All these light, heavy suits should move to this layer. And go from suits to survivor armor. Light armor, medium armor, heavy armor. Composition is as follows: - helmet and/or helmet + transparent visor to enhance facial protection (additional eye protection from boomers, despite the repeal of their change) - body protection based on armored vest - limb protection based on arm and leg guard (with different degrees of coverage) It would be desirable to add the ability to attach pouches. For those who like this system. In addition, this could also include dusters, survivor coats and the like. 4. Strapped layer. This is a variety of pouches, for those who do not like the molle system. As well as fasteners for auxiliary tools of the survivor. Basically a variety of electronics: flashlights, infrared goggles and the like. Provided that they can not be part of other parts of the equipment. For example, a mask or helmet. What we end up with - a survivor's underwear - survivor suit - survivor's armor - survivor's off-load
IdleSol commented 1 month ago

Firegear. Unless you choose to add the ability to walk through fire or tolerate hot air well. It doesn't make any sense.

Other than simply stating what it's made of.

fairyarmadillo commented 1 month ago

Firegear. Unless you choose to add the ability to walk through fire or tolerate hot air well. It doesn't make any sense.

This is incorrect. People wear fire gear IRL all the time. It does not protect them from standing in 500 degree rooms, but it does guard their skin against burns from brief exposure to open flames. The game does not perfectly simulate fire, but that is not the equipment's fault.

There are also CBMs and mutations that protect against hot air but not flames, which make this kind of gear much more valuable.

medium level. Diverse skills of level 5..6. higher level. Diverse skills of level 9..10.

I don't agree. Adding two tiers of survivor gear would really just be adding more cruft. Outside of the very early game, nobody wants to use half-assed versions of the gear they want, they'll just rush the good stuff and ignore everything else. There are also many, many alternative items that people can craft at lower and higher tiers, further obviating a lower class of survivor gear. The game does not take crafting quality into account elsewhere, and it's not a good idea to arbitrarily introduce it for a single line of equipment.

  1. Tools and materials used in the construction of the gear must be common.

That was also my intent. Kevlar, nylon, and the other materials used are very common and come already manufactured, so they make sense as something someone would want to use. Nomex is a bit less common, but it's the only material that does what it does, so it makes sense to seek out.

survivor's underwear

This does not and should not exist.

survivor armor

This is also unnecessary. Converted military armor items are Mercenary gear, not Survivor gear. Mercenary gear should prioritize ballistic protection and combat utility (IE molle). Survivor gear is modified clothing or workwear and should be more lightweight, prioritizing melee and environmental defense.

survivor's harness

I'm unclear as to what exactly this provides or should provide that isn't already provided by premade items like the chest rig. That makes it a strong candidate for obsoletion IMO.

I just don't like wearing heavy boots with a light mask

Variants should exist only when there's a clear and obvious reason for them. The existence of a heavy survivor suit does not necessitate the existence of a heavy hood, gloves, boots, pants, coat, backpack, goggles, panties, bra, etc.

Although wearing a survivor mask with mercenary armor I dislike even more.

These items are not uniforms and they are not Warcraft gear sets. Their names simply describe their function, and mixing them is no different from wearing steel plate armor over a canvas aketon. The fact that they're cobbled together from scraps of other things is an argument for making them even more piecemeal and less uniform.

Kantonine commented 1 month ago

Yeah, Fairyarmadillo is right about that, having all that would be a massive bloat for the current crafting list as is, and really shouldnt be taken in that direction. Its already bad enough when i open up the crafting menu right now lol

I'm unclear as to what exactly this provides or should provide that isn't already provided by premade items like the chest rig. That makes it a strong candidate for obsoletion IMO.

The survivor harness is designed currently as essentially a multipurpose lightweight vest and sling, with 3 general use pouches. Its not supposed to be really compared to other carrier vests/rigs.

It's probably not necessary now, but as Venera's limb project moves forward, it may be a good idea to roll out things like a survivor skirt or a survivor robe, which would be able to protect things like tree branches, gastropod foots, and tentacles without restricting them.

Yeah, good point.

As for Hoods, I would like to keep them as a Outer layer item, if you want a normal layer hood and mask combination, the Scavenger/nomad cowl is very much your speed.

fairyarmadillo commented 1 month ago

If the hoods remain an outer item, I suggest making sure that they have thicker padding than the rest of the gear to justify that. They also should not use ballistic kevlar - ballistic soft armor IRL is completely useless on the head, as the impact of a gunshot is still going to shatter your skull or give you very serious whiplash. Only hard armor can sufficiently protect the head from bullets, and even then it's not great.

Making them out of nylon over cut-resistant kevlar would make more sense as presumably the survivor is trying to defend against being scratched and bitten on the head.

Kantonine commented 1 month ago

Making them out of nylon over cut-resistant kevlar would make more sense as presumably the survivor is trying to defend against being scratched and bitten on the head.

Yeah, thats what my intention was for it, no point of ballistic armor for the head when you need all or nothing. Hoods really should be more of a environmental protection item (rain and wind primarily) with some decent melee protection, but nothing that makes helmets unuseable. (and also so that they can be used with caps and the like, for post apoc streetwear drip)

Hm, what about gloves? theyre supposed to fill a gap of having gauntlet liners, right? i.e. more protective than arming gauntlets environmentally, but not for pure combat

fairyarmadillo commented 1 month ago

I don't see a strong argument for survivor gloves existing at all. They'd essentially just be tactical gloves.

Tactical gloves probably need an update and a crafting recipe as they look like they haven't been touched in a while. There could even be a version with hard plastic over the knuckles, both for protection and for doing a little extra bash damage on a punch. The ones with plastic guards are sold all the time at motorcycle shops, and you often see police and security guards with them. There are also versions with steel or lead-weighted knuckle guards sold for self defense, but IDK about their rarity or legality in New England.

IdleSol commented 1 month ago

Regarding the two different levels. Don't take them as mk1 survivor gear and mk2 survivor gear. They may have different names. They could be made of different materials.

Or, mk2 can require mk1 crafting if desired. Rationale: I have gained new knowledge and skills, so I have improved my equipment.

I can't speak for everyone. Personally, my playstyle involves getting max levels. And I'm more likely to do high levels right away. But I've also met characters (when looking at other people's saves) who had about level 5-6 by early/mid autumn. Those players will most likely be limited to starting gear.

Additionally, remember the developers' plans for high level skills. They will be hard to access. Having an extra reward in the form of new gear. In my opinion, it's much better than not having it.

And it's not hard to create. Make a copy and change the thickness or encumbrance. Maybe add some cosmetics. That's all the cost. Unless you add some electronics functionality.

Its already bad enough when i open up the crafting menu right now lol

About the bloated crafting menu. Tell that in the armor/weapons from different steel grades topic.

UPD. I hope that doesn't sound rude.

As for Hoods, I would like to keep them as a Outer layer item, if you want a normal layer hood and mask combination, the Scavenger/nomad cowl is very much your speed.

About the hoods I wrote why I took it to a normal level. Specifically, radiation protection and spores. And that I was basing it on how it would be in reality.

Kantonine commented 1 month ago

Regarding the two different levels. Don't take them as mk1 survivor gear and mk2 survivor gear. They may have different names. They could be made of different materials.

We already have different "levels" of protection for the main three, along with firegear, and winterized gear, id rather not double it from 5 to 10 overall groupings... no... just no.

Additionally, remember the developers' plans for high level skills. They will be hard to access. Having an extra reward in the form of new gear. In my opinion, it's much better than not having it.

In the form of more seperate things to make? Ideally, if the system supported it, having high skills would be great at having higher quality/effectiveness gear. As it is right now though, it seems really far-fetched.

And it's not hard to create. Make a copy and change the thickness or encumbrance. Maybe add some cosmetics. That's all the cost. Unless you add some electronics functionality.

I'd Argue that any sort of electronics function should be stayed away from for being used for survivor gear, Nomad gear really should have the honor of it alone.

About the bloated crafting menu. Tell that in the armor/weapons from different steel grades topic.

Not even for the steel grades, but even just the other items.

About the hoods I wrote why I took it to a normal level. Specifically, radiation protection and spores. And that I was basing it on how it would be in reality.

I really wouldn't take a note out of Rust, and have craftable rad-resistant gear, I don't think many would trust their hood to keep out radiation, and environmental protection already protects againt fungal infection in the way you suggest, no?

fairyarmadillo commented 1 month ago

I suspect a lot of the winter gear can be obsoleted now that the game has cloaks and stuff on the strapped layer. A fur or faux-fur jumpsuit on the normal layer never made a ton of sense to begin with (who's wearing plate mail over fur clothing?) - even Inuit traditional garb is just a fur parka on the outer layer over sealskin (relatively thin) pants and I think sometimes a shirt, but not even always that. Players have access to all kinds of other ways to keep warm, too - heaters, thermal electric undergarments, CBMs, mutations, and many other winter clothing items.

The winter suits can probably be scrapped, and the winter boots. The hood might be worth keeping as it makes plenty of sense to line that kind of thing with fur. Some kind of survivor parka might also be a good idea - trading protection and/or encumbrance for extra warmth.

Agreed that none of this should use electronics in any way (what would even be the point??), and definitely not rad protection. There's no reason anyone would implement the former, and the latter should probably be restricted to items factory-made by trained professionals.

Kantonine commented 1 month ago

For the winter gear, i think the addition of a parka would be pretty good, but i would still like to keep the winter gloves and boots along with the hood. Another part of me wants to have the winter stuff possibly use wool, and turn the warmth down a tad, because in all honesty, fur is somewhat rare in cdda, while wool is pretty commonplace, and with the wool being used as a lining, wouldnt need to have all the same properties that fur does, but your mileage may vary with what im thinking of here.

Hmm, maybe quilted wool as a component?

fairyarmadillo commented 1 month ago

Quilting fabric takes foreeeeever. If its crafting times were accurately represented in the game, I would probably find something else to wear rather than spend a week grinding out an outfit for 2 months. YMMV

I wouldn't call fur rare. It's a common find in homes, animals are made out of it, there are plenty of shops that sell fur and fur clothing.

Plain wool's not necessarily a bad idea, I'm just thinking out loud.

Kantonine commented 1 month ago

Yeah, that's definitely something to consider, but wool overall is much more easy to source than fur for me tbqh, especially when quilts are able to be taken apart into felt sheets, meanwhile fur isn't as commonplace, and I'd rather not just add wool lined winterized survivor gear as yet another collection of stuff to bloat out the crafting menu and loot tables

Maddremor commented 1 month ago

Skimming this conversation at my lunch break, so I can't speak to the entire conversations, but I should figure I could leave some of my thoughts on survivor gear.

Kantonine commented 1 month ago

While post-apocalyptic crafted stuff is both a genre staple and conceptually reasonable, the name "survivor" is indirectly causing problems in my experience. It's often used as a prefix to denote an item being better than the baseline item without specifying how. How is a pair of survivor boots different from regular boots worn by a survivor, and is there a more descriptive name you can give it? (This is why we have the baseball bat and the nail bat, not the baseball bat and the survivor bat.)

That's a fair point to make regarding the nomenclature surronding pretty much all of the survivor gear (This is why we have kevlar jumpsuits instead of survivor suits now) I do remember that when the survivor boots change happened, there was talk about renaming them. That could definitely be included in this, Thanks for bringing it up!

When modifying garments and gear you do risk messing up the base design with stuff not fitting right or stress being put on seams in ways they don't really handle well. An good example is the survivor backpacks: These were added in a time where we didn't really have that much storage and were a strict upgrade. Now that we have far more different packs and more nuance from the pocket system, what do these custom backpacks offer to justify a novel design?

I can't speak from experience with tailoring, but as for the survivor backpacks, they all have STURDY, which is their main gimmick, with the only non-survivor backpack having this is the daypack. Their age really is apparent with only having one large pocket, maybe they could all have more features from the other commercial packs? Hydration pack pouches, Maybe a intergrated gas mask pouch?

Maddremor commented 1 month ago

Can packs be made durable in that way, and how would one do that? If the first is the case and you figure out the latter, giving them a new name should be doable.

Kantonine commented 1 month ago

Can packs be made durable in that way, and how would one do that? If the first is the case and you figure out the latter, giving them a new name should be doable.

Well. i'd imagine that for the survivor backpacks, that all the seams get reinforced, at least to cover up the original seam stitching, and then to armor pad the container.

fairyarmadillo commented 1 month ago

Nomad and Mercenary are two names designed with a clear identity. Survivor is that it sort of is that, and easily could be better. That was my angle when I was updating the masks.

Nomad - Exodii are dimensional nomads. They make high tech gear out of salvaged stuff that emphasizes ergonomics, bionics, and climate control.

Mercenary - Former soldiers and people who know how to use their gear are mercenaries. Their stuff emphasizes molle and ballistic protection for people who can no longer rely on a convenient supply chain.

Survivor - Ordinary humans who have learned to effectively weather the cataclysm are survivors. Their stuff is generally clothing cleverly reinforced with modern materials in a way that is specifically tailored to surviving threats that have only existed since C Day.

Scavenger - As above, but the focus is on carrying capacity at the expense of armor.

Nomad often integrates with bionics. Scavenger and Survivor should often make allowances for mutations.

I do agree that pretty much every survivor item needs reviewing in the way you've suggested with the backpack, as many of them run on outdated video game logic. Backpack+ doesn't make a ton of sense imo.

"Kevlar Jumpsuit" is a bad name because a jumpsuit would not be made out of Kevlar, and the version that exists currently is not, it's just padded and lined with the stuff. It's clearly a custom job, and the Survivor name has historical precedent, is part of the game's identity, and immediately suggests the sort of thing it might be even before you read the description.

Kantonine commented 1 month ago

Scavenger - As above, but the focus is on carrying capacity at the expense of armor.

So does this mean that scavenger gear should make somewhat of a comeback as a armor archetype? I.e. full jumpsuit with less armor, and more pockets all over?

I do agree that pretty much every survivor item needs reviewing in the way you've suggested with the backpack, as many of them run on outdated video game logic. Backpack+ doesn't make a ton of sense imo.

Hmm, maybe for the jumpsuits, require a soldering iron to melt all the seams together? cant have a weakpoint if the material itself is melded together.

"Kevlar Jumpsuit" is a bad name because a jumpsuit would not be made out of Kevlar, and the version that exists currently is not, it's just padded and lined with the stuff. It's clearly a custom job, and the Survivor name has historical precedent, is part of the game's identity, and immediately suggests the sort of thing it might be even before you read the description.

perhaps going back to tradition with "Survivor Jumpsuit" be a better naming scheme?

fairyarmadillo commented 1 month ago

So does this mean that scavenger gear should make somewhat of a comeback as a armor archetype? I.e. full jumpsuit with less armor, and more pockets all over?

I don't particularly think so, it was just an example. The game doesn't need a million custom imaginary armor sets that don't belong to any faction, does it?

Hmm, maybe for the jumpsuits, require a soldering iron to melt all the seams together? cant have a weakpoint if the material itself is melded together.

That's not how solder or soldering irons or fabric work. Solder only solders solder and solder is very brittle. It is basically only good for attaching wires and components to electrical boards, and other little things like that.

Melting parts of a kevlar garment would ruin it and provide no benefit. Furthermore, most of the items don't really have weakpoints, except the ones with steel plating where you wouldn't expect the metal to cover everything.

perhaps going back to tradition with "Survivor Jumpsuit" be a better naming scheme?

Yes, that was the point I was making all along. Survivor gear is self-explanatory and it's a long-established part of the game's identity. The only issues are that there are too many survivor items and that a lot of them don't make much sense.

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