New Mailboxes

[DoESsean]

We currently have 42 mailbox subscribers, and 16 actual pigeon holes. Obviously this is unsustainable, and is starting to cause me some genuine concerns, not least because it looks a bit two bit whenever anyone comes in to pick up their mail and I have to direct them to the 'Miscellaneous' hole.

We NEED a new solution, but I'm coming across a couple of problems - basically, it's the whole 'cheap, good, fast' conundrum.

While something like this from Safco ticks the cheap and fast box, the reviews are poor and it's a similar corrugated cardboard to the ones we have now, so won't look great.

On the other hand, something like this from furniture-work.co.uk would look great and provide parcel storage too, but isn't exactly cheap.

The final option, I suppose, would be to see if anyone within the community would be willing to build something for us, and how much that would cost. However, it seems to me that we would need to pay for someone to do so, as, with the best will in the world, it's going to be a decent job of work, and the kind of thing that could drag on for ages if left to be done on a voluntary basis.

Whatever we decide, we're looking at this being worth around £4k a year to DoES, so, to my mind, it certainly makes sense to have a solution which is fit for purpose and looks good too, which the current set up isn't and doesn't.

We never expected it to be such a popular offering, but given that it's now the equivalent of two permanent desks per year, it's worth getting some opinions on what should be done.

[johnmckerrell]

Thought I'd mention here that we have some lockers that we can use for more secure storage, although they need homing and new locks purchasing, covered in #1377. Obviously we still need a better solution for the other mailboxes too though.

[magman2112]

I’ve been doing some initial research on possibly making some mailboxes.

I have been thinking of a modular unit, made from MDF (so that it can be painted in our standard colour), with lockable doors for each mailbox. There would be 2 rows of vertical mailboxes per unit. Each mailbox would be tall enough and deep enough to take at least an A4 sized envelope, but I would appreciate some guidance on the preferred height and depth. I was thinking of a width of 50-75mm per mailbox, to make the mailbox doors a reasonable size.

I was also thinking of units with larger mailboxes to handle parcels and larger envelopes.

One of the major expenses with mailboxes are the locks. Ideally, these should be keyed alike, to make loading new mail easier, but this would raise the cost per lock from around £2 each to over £6 each. Considering there will likely be over 20 mailboxes per unit, the difference is significant. I think we may try the cheaper option for now, to see how it works, but we will also need a process to handle 100’s of keys reliably and effectively.

I will draw up some designs in sketchup, so that I can play with the dimensions and help us all to see what my ideas look like, then work up some material costings.

Construction will be biscuit joints for the main carcass, with the shelves and mailbox inserts rebated into the carcass. I will make the back removable, so the we can get to the back of a mailbox should a lock be damaged or keys lost.

[seanspotatobusiness]

Regarding the keyed alike locks, I've seen lockers which have their doors inside another larger door. The entire locker can be filled by unlocking the large door and then the smaller doors are set into the large one so the small door key holders can only access their own compartments. Maybe that's hard to DIY though.

On Mon, 22 Jun 2020, 11:43 Mike Gorman, notifications@github.com wrote:

I’ve been doing some initial research on possibly making some mailboxes.

I have been thinking of a modular unit, made from MDF (so that it can be painted in our standard colour), with lockable doors for each mailbox. There would be 2 rows of vertical mailboxes per unit. Each mailbox would be tall enough and deep enough to take at least an A4 sized envelope, but I would appreciate some guidance on the preferred height and depth. I was thinking of a width of 50-75mm per mailbox, to make the mailbox doors a reasonable size.

I was also thinking of units with larger mailboxes to handle parcels and larger envelopes.

One of the major expenses with mailboxes are the locks. Ideally, these should be keyed alike, to make loading new mail easier, but this would raise the cost per lock from around £2 each to over £6 each. Considering there will likely be over 20 mailboxes per unit, the difference is significant. I think we may try the cheaper option for now, to see how it works, but we will also need a process to handle 100’s of keys reliably and effectively.

I will draw up some designs in sketchup, so that I can play with the dimensions and help us all to see what my ideas look like, then work up some material costings.

Construction will be biscuit joints for the main carcass, with the shelves and mailbox inserts rebated into the carcass. I will make the back removable, so the we can get to the back of a mailbox should a lock be damaged or keys lost.

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[magman2112]

It is possible to make a frame to hold the mailbox doors and make this openable, but it is a lot more work. It may be a good option though, especially if jigs can be made up to use a router to make a lot of the joints.

A lot of this comes down to design aesthetics as well. For example, is a lip on the edge of the mailbox acceptable, or should it be flush with the bottom. This makes a big difference in the size of materials used for the face frame, strength, etc. Also, I suspect for a large frame like this, some sort of metal corner brackets or frames would likely be needed to give the frame strength to have a long life - with possibly custom brackets needed for small dimension frame stock.

A bigger question though, is how many mailboxes do we need?

I was thinking of making 2 or 3 mailbox units, with a guesstimate of 20 mailboxes per unit. I will be able to give some more accurate estimates once I have drawn up a few examples.

It would be better to make more units now, though with obvious increases in material costs, than coming back to make more later.

[johnmckerrell]

I quite like the idea of having the whole front open up, it could make it easier to file the post too (so long as we remember to put labels inside too!) On the other hand though in theory the increased cost of the locks wouldn't be so bad, as Sean has said we charge £99/year for the mailbox so spending £6 on a lock isn't so bad. That said if the cumulative cost becomes such that we should just buy pre-made then it defeats the purpose of doing it "ourselves"! Also we wouldn't need to buy all the locks straight away if we're making sure we have plenty of spare mailboxes we could choose to buy some locks later.

[magman2112]

Time for about of an update on my thoughts.

First the carcase, or the main box for this design.

First, I have assumed a cabinet width of 1220mm, as this corresponds to the width of standard large sheets of MDF. We can accomodate larger widths, we just don't get as effecient use of the stock material. I was also planning to use 18mm thickness stock, as again this is a standard thickness and sufficient thickness to support any machining that will be required.

I would make a unit of 1 shelves, for 2 rows of mailboxes per unit, all mailboxes would be vertical, for best use of space.

A large A4 envelope is typically 230x320mm, an A4 mailer (or large envelope) is typically 250x350mm. Using these sizes, I would make a shelf height of 250mm. I would then set the carcase depth to 400mm, so allowing for a 12mm back panel (for rigidity), this would give a mailbox depth of 388mm.

I would suggest dividers between the mailboxes as 6mm (again, a stock width). This can either be MDF for cheapness or possibly plywood for a bit more rigidity. These dividers will be rebated into the carcase about 6mm. I plan to make a jig to make routing these rebates a lot quicker and easier.

The next metric to choose is the mailbox widths. Given the cabinet width I built a quick spreadsheet to estimate how many mailboxes would fit in the carcase.

Door size | No of Mailboxes 50 | 21.14 60 | 17.94 70 | 15.58 75 | 14.62

As a real person will have to reach into the mailbox to retrieve their mail, I suspect that the smaller sizes may be too small for a persons hand to get into the mailbox, so I am leaning towards the 70mm size. This would effectively give us 30 mailboxes per unit. This is especially relevant when the hinge I have been looking at is taken into account.

I am looking at using a 140 degree pivot hinge, using a 12mm MDF door panel, here's a link to the hinge. https://www.locksonline.com/140-Degree-Pivot-Hinge-for-Flush-Mounted-Doors-Without-Stop-622.html This hinge is quick to install and hinges on the thicker stock of the carcase, rather than the thinner divider. Another option are flush hinges, like these https://www.ironmongerydirect.co.uk/product/flush-hinge-40mm-zinc-plated-pack-of-10-pairs-177161. These are cheaper, but very time consuming to install and I suspect less robust over time.

Next is locks. I have been looking at barrel locks mostly. From normal ironmongery suppliers, these typically cost in excess of £3 each - https://www.locksonline.com/Cabinet-Parts-Fixings-2/Cabinet-Locks-19/Cam-Locks-Accessories-105/Econo-cam-lock-with-straight-cam-45415.html - but I think we can get these from eBay source for £2.50 or less (or perhaps we can ask for quantity discounts from a UK supplier. I would likely recommend getting small purchases of sample locks before commiting to a large purchase though.

So with all of these factors taken into account here's an initial estimate - using a 70mm mailbox width.

Carcase costs - £48.00 using Wickes standard prices - there is a potential to reduce this to a small degree. Locks cost - £75.00 - assuming a £2.50 per lock cost. The locks cost is the critical metric for the mailbox costs. Hinges cost - £38.10 - using the brown hinges from LocksOnline.

Total estimated cost £161.10 for 30 mailboxes.

The standard sheet sizes from Wickes would typically make 2 units, I used a proportion of the full sheet costs.

There will be some additional costs for paint and finishes, but this would likely be spread over multiple units and some of it is already available in DoES.

If these costs are reasonable compared to manufactured mailboxes, I will spend some time designing other features, like an opening front frame. If not,

[magman2112]

I have now had a chance to measure the space available for mailboxes in DoES. The key issue is that there is a girder in the way on this wall, which needs to be taken into account.

The girder is a little over 1m from the edge of the wall, and stands away from the wall approx. 100mm. If we space the mailboxes away from the wall by the girder width, then we can accomodate a 1220mm cabinet, but I suspect this will look a little strange and likely wastes some floorspace. I discussed this briefly with Jackie on Sunday and she thinks that putting the units flush with the wall would be preferable. This would constrain the cabinet size to 1m width.

With a 1m cabinet, we could support from 24 to 28 mailboxes per cabinet unit. This would give an estimated cost per unit of between £138.48 and £153.56.

As if we don't have enough options, I've just thought of another one. Perhaps all of the mailboxes don't need to be the same size. What if we have a mailbox renter who gets a lot of mail, a standard mailbox may be too small. Perhaps we can mix the mailbox sizes in a unit.

[magman2112]

The next issue I have thought of is to move away from mailbox naming to using numbering instead - especially as we move to lockable mailboxes. This adds a degree of confidentiality and privacy to the mailbox service at some admin cost perhaps.

For the user though, it will likely be easier. Their mailbox key would have their mailbox number attached - much easier for them to find.

On the physical mailboxes, I was thinking of using laserable 2 layer acrylic, like this from hobarts - https://hobarts.com/1.5mm-red-on-white-laminate-610x305mm-ref-2903- , to engrave and cut numbers from - probably as disks to be inset into the doors and potentially as keyfobs for the actual user keys.

Using lockable mailboxes will add some admin tasks anyway, so a spreadsheet or similar document will be needed to map the mailbox and key to the company names, I believe using mailbox numbers will not add significantly to this task once it is set up.

[amcewen]

I'm liking this thinking-in-public and that you're pushing on with this @magman2112!

Having two (or maybe three) mailbox sizes sounds like a good plan, as we have a reasonable amount of variation in amount of post that arrives for our current mailbox users.

A couple of thoughts/ideas to throw into the mix...

On the locks side of things, would it be possible to use some sort of electronic locks? I'm thinking that they probably don't need to be super-secure, given the whole mailboxes are stored in a workshop full of tools that could be used to dismantle the mailboxes if someone so desired, so the locks would be more about preventing casual looking through/theft, I think?

I realise that opens up a new avenue of design consideration, but would mean that it's easier to arrange keys for people, as we could stick a single RFID reader somewhere on the unit and use the same fobs we use for the doors. I'm thinking something like a servo or solenoid or something for the lock, plus an LED to illuminate which box has just been unlocked when you swipe your RFID (so we don't need a reader on each box). We could have "admin" tags which unlock all of the boxes to let people file incoming mail... (if we do end up with a system where the mailboxes know who "owns" each one, we could add a sensor to spot when something is added and notify the owner, as suggested in #33...)

Is it worth us designing in an "incoming post" bigger mailbox too? Particularly if we switch to numbered mailboxes. It feels like your design thoughts so far @magman2112 are assuming there's an admin person (or couple of people) who handles all the post as it arrives. That's not quite how it works in practice at the moment (even pre-lockdown), there's a pretty wide variety of people who receive the post from the postperson - some file it in the mailboxes, others put it on Seán's desk... Maybe we should formalise a place for new post to arrive, and then have a subset of people to sort through it?

Finally, there's also issue #1226, looking at how to make them wheelchair accessible (just so it doesn't get forgotten in the redesign)

[magman2112]

Here's a first image of an initial design.

This image is of a 1m wide unit without doors to show the basic dividers and carcase, with 60mm spacing for the mailboxes which leaves a larger mailbox at one end. Without doors (and the consequent locks and hinges), the cost of this carcase is approx £45.

[magman2112]

As these are modular units, which are stacked to make our mail centre, I was already thinking of having one unit with 4-6 doors to accomodate parcels, etc. The base unit will have a small plinth to raise it off the floor and give a small kick space.

A stack would likely be a plinth, then a parcel unit, then 2-3 mailbox units. Accessibility should be good, as wheelchair access would up to the front of the unit so parcels and the lower mailbox unit should all be accessible, as long as we allocate the appropriate mailboxes for accessible users.

We would have to find a new location for the current plans chest as well as designating this space as a cleared area to prevent clutter from getting in the way of all users. A taped off area on the floor might help keep people aware of this.

Here's a view of a stack of units, as described above

[magman2112]

I've been working on some idea's for front frames to hold the doors and locks for the mailboxes, so here are some of my thoughts so far.

For a completely passive, manual locking frame, the first plan was for a wooden frame, using the hinges and locks as already mentioned. This would be made from 20mm square timber, with 10mm uprights for door dividers (as well as adding a lot of rigidity) - this is effectively a dual row ladder frame. It may also need some metal corner braces, given that we will be hinging some weight up to 1m from the hinge point. The main hinge will be a piano hinge, likely on the left side of the cabinet looking from the front. I was looking at using dovetail joints for the uprights into the main frame, which can be machined using a router and some jigs. Costs for this frame over and above the costs listed above is less than £10. Piano hinges are from £3.25 per 1.8m.

Next is a simpler design which may be better able to support electronic locks, now or in the future. Using 20mm box section aluminium, we could make up an all metal frame. This would likely need aluminium welding though to be mechanically strong enough. This would also no use uprights for the doors - making the doors slightly wider than the original width and using the pin hinges listed above, but with mounting holes drilled directly in the aluminium rails. Box section from the Aluminium warehouse - https://www.aluminiumwarehouse.co.uk/20-mm-x-20-mm-x-2-mm-aluminium-square-tube cost £13.20 per 2m length, we would need a little over 4m per frame, so circa £27 for materials, plus manufacturing costs. I have spotted a couple of local engineering shops who could likely do this, so if this is a likely route to go, we can investigate costs - or possibly ask around the membership for anyone who can TIG weld. Again, a piano hinge would be used to connect the frame to the unit carcase, though likely an aluminium one.

A neat extension of using the aluminium frame, is that it would be possible for wiring to electronic locks to be routed through the channel. Working on the premise that the mailboxes nearest the hinge could be used to mount electronics and a control panel. I was thinking of mounting a small servo on the back of the door, with wiring routed back to a control board through the aluminium channel. The servo would have a cam that would rotate to engage a pin or plate to lock the mailbox door. A display and RFID reader would be located on the control panel at the hinge end. A mains power supply - with battery backup - would be located in the mailbox behind the front panel (mounted on an aluminium chassis panel to make installation and maintenance easier), leading to an IEC socket mounted in the carcase to the rear of the unit. There are a lot of detailled design issues to address to make this work, but it is eminently doable.

A quick look on Amazon found these interesting links:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Queta-Airplane-Helicopter-Remote-Control/dp/B07MPPF5CS/

https://www.amazon.co.uk/KeeYees-PCA9685-Raspberry-Helicopter-Airplane-10pcs-SG90-Servo-Motor-Driver/dp/B07KQC5R4H/

I would estimate the electronic cost to be in the region of £100-120 including a PSU, micro, servo drivers and servos - per unit.

Last, but no means least, we would need some way to lock the frame to the carcase, regardless of the frame type chosen. I would also likely install some alignment pins on the side opposite the hinges, to ensure good alignment of the mailbox doors with the mailboxes, shoud the frame sag slightly with use. Possibly better quality locks would be need here - I'm thinking of 2 locks per side - keyed alike for all of the units - so I would estimate up to £20 per unit for these locks.

[JackiePease]

I've built some temporary cardboard shelves - the plans are on my Onshape account, but could do with a bit of refining if anyone needs them again. Hopefully they won't! - @DoESsean is back from being furloughed so can now discuss requirements for the new system with @magman2112. The temporary shelves still need to be labelled.

[JackiePease]

If it suits everyone, it seems that it would be preferable to put the mail racks in front of Findout's room, as the space in the alcove is more suitable for storing / using workshop equipment.

[magman2112]

Just a quick prompt to @DoESsean to have a look at the recent activity to get his thoughts on the current design.

[DoESsean]

Just to drop this here after a brief conversation with @magman2112 today, we currently have 72 active mailbox users.

[ajlennon]

Whoah! Nicely done. Hey I dunno if we've talked about this before but there are various places where they let you buy an email address at their domain. For example cantab.net are setting up an affliated cantab-like domain which people can pay for an email address.

So what about an affiliated DoESLiverpool domain like, I dunno DoESMember.com or doingepicstuff.com which people supportive of DoES (or people who just think it's cool) could pay £5 or £10 a year for or something?

[johnmckerrell]

That would require DoES to host email which can be a pain to manage, and (at least when I do it) is a struggle to get decent spam filtering and to ensure you don't end up on blacklists (not helped if someone decides to start spamming from it!) The alternative would be to outsource it to Google, AWS, ProtonMail, but these services aren't cheap, so it wouldn't be £5/year, it would be more like £10/month.

I guess unless you just wanted email forwarding which you might be able to get cheaper, potentially from the domain hosting company themselves.

Either way, is there a market?

Probably better not to have an extensive discussion on this issue. If you think it has potential can you open a new ticket?

[johnmckerrell]

FYI our landlord Jason has asked about whether we could provide something similar for downstairs, although most of the clutter down there is probably our post anyway. To be honest I have wondered about whether it would make sense to rent that space from him and just host our mailboxes down there instead. I'm thinking that's probably not such a good idea, it is less secure and then it would also feel a lot less like you were part of the DoES community if you barely even made it in the building and we do hope that people will join our community.

[magman2112]

I’ve been looking to get this issue moving forward in the last few days. I worked out a cutting list for 2 cabinets, a base unit for parcels and a mailbox unit, with a view to evaluating the designs in a working environment. The doors and associated electronics can follow on later.

Cue two days of frustration. I decided to get the wood from the cabinets from B&Q, as they have a good deal on the MDF sheets at the moment. I would also be able to use the free cutting service in store, as there was no easy way to get 2.2m x 1.2m sheets home. Also, for sheets this size, I would need to cut them outside and the weather doesn’t help with this at the moment and for at least the next week.

Called into my local B&Q yesterday, their saw is broken, not buying from here then. Today I went to the Warrington store - only one thickness of material in stock - so then I went across to Speke - only one thickness and the saw is broken.

Looks like I am going to fall back on ordering from Wickes. The material is a bit more expensive, but they have free delivery over £75, so I will just have to wait and see how long they will take and gamble on getting a gap between rain showers to get the large sheets cut up.

[magman2112]

Quick update, MDF sheets ordered from Wickes, due for delivery on Monday, which was a little quicker than expected.

Time to get down to some woodwork from Monday methinks.

[JackiePease]

Following @doessean recent mailbox rationalisation, I notice that there still aren't enough slots for new users. It might be useful if we could get more mailbox units before we move on to the locking system. Is that something @magman2112 could do, maybe with help from others?

Is the new locking system going to be based on the Doorbot system? If so, is anyone who was involved in that available to advise?

I found a couple of Instructables that might be useful for hardware layout: https://www.instructables.com/How-to-Make-an-Arduino-Based-RFID-Box-Lock/ https://www.instructables.com/Electronic-RFID-Door-Lock/