Removal of daily login xp

[MoonlightCapital]

Is your feature request related to a problem? Please describe. There have been some custodians just posting a dab emote or simply saying "dab" just to earn their daily exp bonus. I don't like how this is going, considering I put some effort in checking the server and earning my daily bonuses through duping/reporting/legitimate conversations.

Describe the solution you'd like Either one or more of those:

• Decrease the daily login exp bonus (something like 15 would work)
• Award the bonus only on commands/reactions. This could be further restricted to useful commands (report/dupe/translate/latest)
• Make the bonus require more messages/commands to be actually awarded

Additional context Probably this could help as well.

[jedi3r4]

Some of us are busy, and used to be very active in the server but are more active in the other official servers, but can’t put as much effort into the feedback server because we have gotten busy with other in real life stuff or even other servers that they have to moderate. Some of us that “dab for xp” have “legitimate conversations” a lot of the time before we do that and some of us do report and other things when we have a couple minutes to spare. The dab thing was a whole meme to make the daily bonus more fun. Like saying hey it’s a new day, dab on all the haters, and let’s have some fun. At least that is how I see this whole dabbing thing.

[Zacatero]

I 100% agree with @jedi3r4

Also, I feel the current "dab for XP" is actually better than "award the bonus only on commands/reactions." because if you force that upon people, then it'll go back to when people had streaks and would just vote the first 5 suggestions they saw without even looking so they could meet their daily goal. I feel that is worse than just using chat to earn it.

[Dougley]

Since v5, daily rewards are no longer applied to custodians, keeping this issue open for further discussion.

[SuperSajuuk]

I oppose the removal of the daily bonus for Custodians. This seems like unnecessary control being applied over what people post and when someone who is a non-Custodian becomes a Custodian, they will be less likely to contribute in chat and to the server as a whole, when they realise that they get no more bonus. The bonus should return for Custodians but only like 10 xp. That is more balanced, fair and sensible than outright deletion. Even the original creator of this ticket suggested 15 xp, that's still fair and balanced.

It surprises me how the comments in this thread show that there are many negatives to removing the daily bonus for Custodians, but the change was made because one or two power-user Custodians have arbitrarily decided that a meme is so negative to everyone that it must be disallowed to get daily bonus.

Forgive me for sounding salty, but this change was made despite clear opposition from a number of users, which goes against the entire premise of "having a consensus" and appears to suggest that opp. If the consensus is to just make changes to benefit people who think they control the server (when they are not mods), then don't expect a lot of people to actually remain in DFeedback and expect that activity in custodian-central will rapidly decrease.

[Zacatero]

@SuperSajuuk I disagree. I personally didn't mind the daily dabbing, but to @Dougley's point, the daily XP was never meant to be permanent. So having a consensus was never really needed since the initial intention around creating it, was to remove it later on.

It reminds me when I was a staff on a Minecraft server, those who were training to be staff got unlimited points each week for answering help questions, but once they ranked up and got their permissions and had other ways to earn points, that same action no longer gave that level of points.

[SuperSajuuk]

@Zacatero To be honest here, this is the first time I ever heard about "daily login bonus" only being a temporary solution. If there is a post somewhere (in Discord or on this issues tracker) saying this is a temporary thing, then please link it, because it's news to me.

[Dougley]

The fact that the reward was temporary was never communicated publicly but was known internally, we aren't strictly obligated to tell you about all the changes we might want to make

[jedi3r4]

Regarding daily xp, a couple people would say practically almost every day when the daily xp was. Everyday. It was getting annoying. It was not needed. In order to counteract that annoyingness, some started to dab. There was still just as much conversation before and after the dabs for daily xp before people told the time for XP’s. I have been looking and seeing absolutely no abuse what so ever. Most were active here, they talked and had conversations here before and after the xp dailies. But some of us can’t do much when we are busy with life, so that was the only real source of xp that they can get.

[Zacatero]

Has anybody proposed a reason to keep it? I've seen reasons to not remove it, but are there any reasons to keep it? Like what benefit does it bring other than granting a free amount of XP?

[jedi3r4]

Nothing, just like the roles, just like all the other useless xp we get. Its just sitting there, waiting for something actually useful. I'll come up with a few actual reasons why we should have daily xp in a few minutes.

[jedi3r4]

Some reasons are: 1) provides a method for incredibly busy users to at least earn "something" per day than nothing 2) keeps people active and relevant in the community, preventing abandonment from being forced to do things they aren't interested in. 3) gives everyone a fair and equal chance to hit the higher roles.

Also with this change, people who effectively have spammed tons of commands and got xp, got to the top role super fast. while it existed have now basically made it so nobody can copy them, thus preventing them from ever being "removed" from such positions or being challenged in any way

[Dougley]

@SuperSajuuk

This seems like unnecessary control being applied over what people post and when someone who is a non-Custodian becomes a Custodian

To me this sounds like you assume there to be extreme malice involved with this decision, the removal of the reward is completely unrelated to us wanting to control chat flow (did we ever actively control it?)

It surprises me how the comments in this thread show that there are many negatives to removing the daily bonus for Custodians, but the change was made because one or two power-user Custodians have arbitrarily decided that a meme is so negative to everyone that it must be disallowed to get daily bonus.

The fact you try to shift this on others - with absolutely 0 influence on this project, the management of the server, or the moderation - being dissatisfied with something is enough grounds to change something is saddening to say the least. This change was made in request by Danny (albeit I suggested changing something about the system), all changes like this are made by request of an employee.

[Zacatero]

@jedi3r4 your 3rd point I feel is the point it was removed. Why should just chatting a message per day allow you to earn the roles that others earn for doing stuff like dupes or other stuff?

[jedi3r4]

@Zacatero
Here are the current xp you can get: vote = 2; report = 8; dupe = 20; comment = 5; submit = 10; comment remove = 8

The current limits are: 5 votes = 10 xp 5 dupes = 100 xp 3 comments = 15 xp 1 submit = 10 xp 9770 is total xp for all roles

In 72 days, just by duping 5 dupes correctly every time, doing 5 votes per day, 3 comments per day, 1 suggestion per day, you can get all the roles.

Daily Xp when it was around and at 25 xp, you could get it in 390.8 days. It was fair, for not doing work. Now you can no longer get roles if not as active as the ones who can report suggestions, dupe, and report comments

(This is of course without the comment removals and valid reported suggestions.) To answer your question, because everyone should have a chance to get more roles, no matter what. If your busy for a while, your only source of xp is votes and daily xp to get roles if you want them. Just by votes alone because you are so busy, it would take 977 days. (2.67 years)

It does not make much sense to remove daily xp, maybe lower it, yes, but removing it? Nope

[Zacatero]

I guess my only question left is...

When the roles already don't mean anything, why make them mean even less by making it easier for people who only chat for daily XP to also earn them without doing other things to assist the server like report or dupes?

@SuperSajuuk @jedi3r4

[jedi3r4]

It is not easy to stay on doing votes for 2.67 years. That takes a ton of dedication. Tbh, I am just looking for balance between the people who can't do as much, and the people who can do more. If anything, maybe make it have lower xp, and harder to get daily xp. Would be much better imo, to balance it, to make you work for it. Like 10 messages to get it plus a vote or something like that. Compromise for both sides of the argument would work best for everyone imho. @Zacatero

[Zacatero]

Here's my only problem left with re-adding Daily XP.

Another issue currently facing DFeedback is the fact that the only prizes to spend XP on are the roles that are just aesthetic. The thing we want is for them to have more perks, and to mean something more, which would make people more interested in earning them. However, in doing that, we further remove the legitimacy of Free XP since the roles end up meaning more. And personally, I'd prefer more perks to the roles over daily XP.

[tenapay]

I'm on the "don't remove daily xp" side but also on the "daily dabbing shit is annoying" side.

Prefer to keep the daily xp obtainable via the 1st & 2nd option in OP. Give less xp to higher ranks. Give the daily only to relevant commands aka commands that actually contribute to the server (reports & dupes).

One argument I personally don't like in this thread is:

keeps people active and relevant in the community, preventing abandonment from being forced to do things they aren't interested in.

If people aren't interested in helping out around the server, they shouldn't be in the server in the first place. The original intention of being a Custodian is to help around Feedback. With this argument, it just seems like people are being forced to help within the server instead of willingly help out.

[jedi3r4]

There are both pros and cons to this tbh, and I see your point. I am probably just being stubborn by this point, but just want to keep it equal/balanced for people who can't be there all the time. @Zacatero

@Tenpaii what do you mean by

via the 1st & 2nd option in OP.

[tenapay]

@jedi3r4

Describe the solution you'd like Either one or more of those:

• Decrease the daily login exp bonus (something like 15 would work)
• Award the bonus only on commands/reactions. This could be further restricted to useful commands (report/dupe/translate/latest)

[jedi3r4]

Oh I see. I like that a lot tbh. @Tenpaii Thanks for the clarification.

[Zacatero]

@Tenpaii I am against awarding it on reactions... it would result in people just reacting to the first reaction they saw without necessarily reading anything, which is essentially the same level of effort as a "daily dab"

and @jedi3r4 why should being there be equal to not being there? In DTesters for example, I was unable to participate in the dupe-a-thon events they had because I was unable to commit that level of time, and understandably so I never won any. I never expected them to accommodate me because the people that won did a lot of work. Like if I can be equal in reward for doing nothing, why would I do something?

[jedi3r4]

@Zacatero I don't mean compensate for events. "Working" on something for 2.67 years is still a lot of effort (from my view), and either option like ten said would work just as well to limit it a bit.

[Zacatero]

@jedi3r4 right but when the reward is the same for me or you regardless, it feels weird that somebody can earn it for just being around for long enough, vs people who actually put in work.

[jedi3r4]

What ten suggested, what i suggested earlier, as a compromise,

If anything, maybe make it have lower xp, and harder to get daily xp. Would be much better imo, to balance it, to make you work for it. Like 10 messages to get it plus a vote or something like that.

Either one or more of those:

Decrease the daily login exp bonus (something like 15 would work) Award the bonus only on commands/reactions. This could be further restricted to useful commands (report/dupe/translate/latest) could help put in the work that you want to see at least a little bit. To me it does not feel weird. 🤷‍♂️

[Dougley]

Update on this, we're investigating different solutions for custodians to gain periodical extra EXP. No promises on this however.

[AEnterprise]

To me all this is kinda reading like a complaint of "they took away our free xp for doing absolutely nothing", and while in a way that is what happened you guys are missing a lot of context here:

1) removing daily xp was brought up before internally, just never got acted on and forgotten 2) this issue basically brought up the discussion again internally 3) while initial communication about it could have been better , this decision wasn't made based on a few "power users" as you call them, they where never invited to the discussion, the feedback mods and employees made the decision 4) people where getting xp just for doing nothing, just sending a single message. while yes they may be active other then sending a single message. any system that awards based on sending a single message is flawed as it doesn't reward people who actually do things, it even rewards people (like myself) who do absolutely nothing feedback related but just pop in when they are pinged for something (be it a joke, a question, ....) 5) alternatives to rewarding people on a daily/weekly basis are being considered, this however takes time. some idea's on how a new system could provide similar bonuses for active people, but we need to figure out the best criteria internally first (though suggestions are welcome), and then need to be approved by the employees before work can even start on making a replacement.

[Zacatero]

I still think if we make the roles more desirable it will remove the justification for daily xp anyways

[jedi3r4]

I think that instead of making the roles more desirable to remove the justification for daily xp, as it will lead to more elitism, to more anger and resentment between others because some would think their new perks and their higher roles, that they are better then the rest. Instead how about just get actual merchandise for Feedback instead of roles? Most people would work towards for that because who doesn't want to share their support for discord?

[Zacatero]

I just feel like without perks that are only available to those with higher roles, that makes the roles kinda pointless. Maybe if you had to be Vizer or higher to buy merch, then yeah

[Arzte]

Jumping in here real quick, we're working on possible ways to spend xp besides roles internally, however something like merch will take a bit to get going for feedback, and is currently a DTesters only perk.

As for gaining xp, we're exploring more ways for that internally, ideas and suggestions for which are welcome.

[Dougley]

Locking this issue for now, thanks for the feedback everyone. We're looking into different ways for periodical exp for both non-custodians and custodians.