Tachi: Y/G/K

[Elysien]

Short story: they are too weak.

Long story: I'm not sure if this is a problem with Tachi: Yukikaze/Gekko/Kasha itself, or possibly the atk/def formula or something else, but ask most SAM and they will tell you these WS are very much weaker than they remember.

Today I decided to get a look at how it performed against Fafnir, as I'm very familiar with fighting this NM as Samurai in the era and, to my dismay; it was abysmal. In what is mostly 'best in slot' equipment, mostly fully merited and atk food, my Tachi:Gekko were doing an astounding 60-250 damage. My critical hits would sometimes deal more damage, pretty depressing--especially after putting a lot of effort into maximizing the job. It isn't just limited to Fafnir either, vs Sky gods while buffed to the balls with brd/cor, /war with atk food I'm looking at 400-500 Tachi:Gekko.

It was difficult to find some retail era videos of SAM dmg vs this stuff without filters on, but I did find something briefly against Nidhogg, a beefier Fafnir.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75OhISFURqk&t=110s

Starts at 0:55 seconds, we see "Tankk" using a Yuki for 617 damage, then a Gekko for 995. I wouldn't be able to get even close to these numbers even if I did a Sneak Attack Gekko that also scored a double attack! And this was on Nidhogg, not even Fafnir.

Can't really see his gear, but as I pretty much have as good as it gets for the most part bar a few minor slots it doesn't really matter what he has--he doesn't have the relic weapon, looks like Hagun but it might not even be. The author of the video is in the same party as him too and you can see they aren't getting buffed to the balls, in fact they're barely buffed for damage output.

[Aneyus]

Cosigned, another era SAM main.

[slassen]

Is this an issue with just these weaponskills or are other weaponskills underperforming on the mobs you are basing this off of as well?

[Aneyus]

My initial guess would definitely be the mobs' defenses being too strong in some way rather than the weaponskills themselves being too weak. Other WS also perform unexpectedly poorly against Fafnir/Nidhogg. Need further testing against other HNMs but I'm usually stuck on PLD instead of SAM :P

[slassen]

Enemy TP gain has been adjusted and it seems to be era accurate. May be worth bringing additional melee to test it and normal damage now.

[Aneyus]

For other mobs I'll certainly make the effort to get some testing in, but we bring melee to every faf and it is 100% not taking accurate damage from melee. Double digit Raging Rush and Tachi:YGK are common =/

[slassen]

What about normal hits? Do you have recorded data on that? Maybe some screenshots or a recording? I imagine the above video has some numbers for normal hits too. Those would be more indicative of defense values since there are just so many more of them.

[montijin]

Its an issue with all physical dd from what I can tell. A lot of the posts through this thread do not have context for buffs/tp returns so its kind of hard to tell what buffs, da/ta procs they had but the numbers here are so staggeringly different that its pretty obvious something is up with formulas.

https://www.bluegartr.com/threads/39766-Fapworthy-WS-SC-or-MB-dmg

Here is just an example of something in the thread from 2006

[Godlylegato]

this was before the dsp merge which changed hnm p. def to what it currently is (broken)

i'm lucky to break 300 now (with 2 hour). madrigal/minuet, berserk, 2hour, war charge, no dia2.

you guys had adjusted hnm p.def to be more melee friendly. during this time i could keep up with our blm, now i have no chance in hell.

the same with kb. 700+ slug shots (double minuet, dia2), now sub 300. no one brings rng to kb anymore. we're forced to sc+mb and put blm in every party slot. i'm lucky to break 150+ on nid. i just play rdm for khim, no point to bring anything that isn't smn.

I can only dream of what i could do with chaos/fighters ._.

[Serephim]

Agreed. There is no reason to even use physical damage on HNMs anymore because the damage output is so trash. Especially Ranger where you are literally throwing money at the mob to do pitiful damage. lol

[slassen]

I see a lot of hits for 0s in that era video. Maybe wings are up. I’ll research as well but if you guys have any more videos for me feel free to post them. It may speed up the process.

[montijin]

There is a couple of weaponskills in this video on wyrms from 2005. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NzoD6SdE9A

[Elysien]

I see a lot of hits for 0s in that era video. Maybe wings are up. I’ll research as well but if you guys have any more videos for me feel free to post them. It may speed up the process.

Awesome dude, thanks! And thanks everyone for chiming in!

[boomcats]

This website has a TON of era content.

https://kanican.livejournal.com/12475.html

Plenty of videos and materials here, although they also mana burned many of the mobs.

Ouryu: - 1 tank nin/drk

Here are screenshots of in era is by samurai, gekko between 790-1k on Hydra.

Also full notes on parses and gear. This guy is a gold mine: https://rukenshin.livejournal.com

[Gretal1]

Could it also be that YGK are not getting their natural attack boost?

Pretty sure that Yukikaze has 33% attack boost, Gekko has 100% attack boost, and kasha has +50%.

https://www.bluegartr.com/showthread.php?t=68018

[ccl085]

if anyone has acces to retail, going there and testing HNM defense(at least for Kings) should be easy since they are pop item now and their stat did not change since lvl 75 era.

[Setz0r]

i have a 75 sam on retail with moderate gear. i will see about grabbing another of the devs on his 99 and go give em a try.

[Mattygs6]

Any news on this?

[montijin]

Is this being worked on??? It's really disappointing that after all this time the entirety of endgame hnm and sky is still tiptoeing around busted pdif by using other inaccurate damage formulas.

[slassen]

Some R&D has been done. If you have anything further to contribute to resolve the issue please reserve comments to that rather than bumping. I know Setzor has solicited help on more than one occasion. You can keep an eye on the testing-123 Discord channel.

[TheKingOfJeuno]

i read the OP and i agree with this

Co-signing this from Samuraijake

might even stream the issues with Y G K along with my tears n depression

short version- when i first hit lvl 75 with 0 gear and merits i used to farm demons in Castle V... i farmed merits, str 8/8 great katana skill and 3/3 overwhelm plus i wild steak food + new lvl 70+ gear... and Y G K still doesnt seem like they progressed in damage

[Mozzy4Ever]

Pretty sure this was fixed with pDif changes

[Slamm21]

it was, closing.