Cerberus not acting in accordance to retail or era

[Raphtalia1]

Checklist

• [x ] I have searched for existing issues for issues like this one. The issue has not been posted. (Duplicate reports slow down development.)
• [ ] I have provided reproducable steps. (No "as the title says" posts please. Provide reproducable steps even if it seems like a waste of time.)
• [ ] I have provided my client version in the details. (type /ver into your game window)

Details

Watched cerberus being fought today, he was not using tp moves nearly as frequently as in era. under 25% he should be using gates of hades frequently, never used it during the fight. he should also be using up to 3 tp moves in a row below 25%

[Oyaziiiiiii]

Cerberus could only used TP multiple times in a row if the TP moves were stunned. If the TP move got through, its tp reset to 0. As for TP regain, I think we need someone with a retail account to test that. It's too hard to tell from videos because there aren't any where TP isn't being fed. I personally thought it had regain but Elysien claimed that it didn't in his report before ToAU HNM were released.

[Kurtalicious]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQSmb8bEgIM

Here is a video that might help.

[gweivyth]

Fight seemed softer than 10-ply toilet paper. Even with multiple melees TPing on him, he basically never used TP moves either of the times I've watched the fight. (Both above and below 25%...) In his current form he's even easier than Fafnir, basically a tank and spank. Sort of surprised it took this long for a bug report to be put in, there's no way people thought this boss was acting correctly.

[roriffxi]

Cerb was just updated in the patch on 9/4/2019 which made it substantially easier than it had been previously. Which you could easily see by reading patch notes or searching for past reports about cerberus.

[Oyaziiiiiii]

Gweivyth, let's try to keep the shit posts out of the bug reports maybe. The whole idea is to be constructive so the final product is something similar to era. The fight was recently changed in the last patch. Before then, it was overtuned. We always have 0 melee on Cerberus for the last 25% so the only TP gain it gets is from the bloodpacts. For the first 75% we had two melees on it(THF, SAM) and it used TP every 30-70s except when it used stoneskin.

That video doesn't show proof of regain. There are two SAMs and a PLD on it full time so of course you'd expect it to use TP often. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAUmX5_HhiY is a decent video if you're strictly looking for regain. 8:30 to 8:45 Cerberus has stoneskin up the entire time and I don't think the MNK takes any damage during that time. The in game time stamps between TP moves were 00:16:06 and 00:16:42. From that, I would deduce that the regain is probably something between 78 and 88 TP per tick. An ideal test would be to have someone with utsusemi jump on retail and tank it above 25% and below 25% without taking any damage or feeding it any TP to see how often it uses a TP move. This is assuming that nothing was changed with Cerberus between era and current retail.

Other issues with Cerberus currently:

1. Much too easy to debuff with slow/elegy. I was able to slow it without issue as a 63 RDM the other day, whereas on retail we relied on an ES rotation. Khimaira pre-update felt pretty close to retail as far as this goes.
2. Takes way too much damage from meteorite and the merited group 2 bloodpacts.
3. Gates of Hades is too fast to stun.
4. Stun resistance seems low. As a NIN/DRK I landed 45/46 stuns last fight. Skilled up BLMs and RDM/DRKs shouldn't get resisted but I feel like a /DRK37 should.
5. Cerberus doesn't roar when idle.

[Raphtalia1]

So there’s a ton of issues since the recent patch, the bug report is valid but you call Gweivyth’s comments shitposting.

This should be a priority as it is a contested NM and should be a difficult fight as it was in era

[beauxq]

Stun resistance seems low.

If it is the case that he will re-attempt TP moves after getting stunned, That makes it seem kind of important for his stun resistance to be low.

[Oyaziiiiiii]

So there’s a ton of issues since the recent patch, the bug report is valid but you call Gweivyth’s comments shitposting.

This should be a priority as it is a contested NM and should be a difficult fight as it was in era

His comment is the definition of a shit post. He was looking for a reason to call foul against another LS but offered nothing except incorrect information to the topic. I never said the bug report wasn't valid, but we need more relevant data/proof.

If it is the case that he will re-attempt TP moves after getting stunned, That makes it seem kind of important for his stun resistance to be low.

It should be low, but I don't think NIN/DRK should be able to stun it 45/46 times.

[Raphtalia1]

My reading of his comment is different than yours I guess. He makes some valid points about the perceived strength of the monster, he does comment on how long a bug report took but doesn’t name anyone or any shell explicitly or make any claims of misdeeds.

If Cerberus was too strong, being over corrected to too weak is a problem, it probably should belong somewhere between the last iteration and the current iteration, a Goldilocks zone between the extremes.

My ls is a bit upset that we spent time farming up anti-Cerberus sets of gear only to find that he is far less deadly than any of us recall, and we probably could have been camping him sooner rather than spending time on anti-fire sets.

[Oyaziiiiiii]

At no point did we have multiple melee on him below 25%. We had two for the first 75%. The only TP feed was from SMN BPs, so the issue then becomes a matter of whether or not it had TP regain. Saying "yeah it's easier than it should be" is not helpful, nor is taking pokes at other linkshells.

[gweivyth]

He was looking for a reason to call foul against another LS

Honestly, I don't play on Eden often enough to really care about linkshell drama, I log in maybe once or twice a week at most. Not everything is about you.

I went out of my way to make no mention of any particular party when I made my post because the point was not to call anybody out, simply remarking on the fact that this NM has been available for quite some time and it should have been bug reported long ago if people were actively killing it. But it is pretty sad to see things that are very obviously undertuned get exploited for long periods of time. Back when we started on this server we all held ourselves to a higher standard than this, and made it a priority to report these types of issues, and I'm really disappointed to see that standards have fallen so far.

Sorry you felt the need to out yourself, hopefully you do better in the future. I think we both care about this server (even though I'm not really playing anymore, I still want Eden to succeed) and this is just a really bad look when people don't report things like this and just abuse them.

Cerb was just updated in the patch on 9/4/2019 which made it substantially easier than it had been previously. Which you could easily see by reading patch notes or searching for past reports about cerberus.

A week is a long time. Back in the 'ol Icon days we'd be removing drops from people and stuff. What's the recourse here?

[roriffxi]

This isn't a monster that spawns daily, a week is 3 maybe 4 fights if it pops early. When you're used to extremely overtuned fights it is difficult in just a handful of fights whether or not something is 'too easy'.

Now as for the TP regain issue, here is a thread that makes it sound like Cerb should have a small amount of regain: https://www.bluegartr.com/threads/55176-Avatar-Bloodpact-give-mobs-tp

And I'm sorry if we came off as defensive Gweiv, but your reputation (we all know about your private discord) of shit-talking precedes you.

[gweivyth]

Also for what it's worth you guys aren't the only ones I've seen fight it, even before the patch it was still a pretty soft fight. The stun resist seemed non-existent for the other group too, and his attack speed was incredibly low. Both of the videos posted show a much faster rate of attack even with Slow and Elegy.

[Oyaziiiiiii]

But it is pretty sad to see things that are very obviously undertuned get exploited for long periods of time.

Reread above posts. Until last week this thing was overtuned. 1500 damage gates that could not be stunned, extremely fast attack speed, etc. There have been three total kills since the patch, not really a large data pool.

Also for what it's worth you guys aren't the only ones I've seen fight it, even before the patch it was still a pretty soft fight. The stun resist seemed non-existent for the other group too, and his attack speed was incredibly low. Both of the videos posted show a much faster rate of attack even with Slow and Elegy.

Its attack speed was through the roof and DSP rng can be nasty with the double attacks so I'm not sure where you're getting that info.

[panfunk]

https://github.com/EdenServer/community/issues/1249#issue-419764634

P.S. Keep this topic related, so godmode doesnt have to read unrelated stuff? Ty

[gweivyth]

And I'm sorry if we came off as defensive Gweiv, but your reputation (we all know about your private discord) of shit-talking precedes you.

Haha, I shot you a link to the Discord if you're so sure that we're secretly plotting and shit talking. That's never been the case, and there have been staff in that Discord since it started, never had anything to hide. Feel free to come join us, we mostly shitpost and make fun of people's sex lives, it's fun!

Edit: Nvm, won't let me send you an private message since we don't share any mutual servers. PM me!

[Cheese-Sandwich]

My ls is a bit upset that we spent time farming up anti-Cerberus sets of gear only to find that he is far less deadly than any of us recall, and we probably could have been camping him sooner rather than spending time on anti-fire sets.

Gates still deals 1200-1500 damage unresisted and Lava Spit usually does upwards to 500 damage. I noticed people examining me lately, probably noticing I don't wear a FR set. There is a reason behind this and if you look again, all of our other tanks still do the last 25% in FR gear. It wasn't a waste to farm it and it helps immensely.

Also take into consideration that we've had this on farm for quite some time so we've found a good way to min/max the fight that suits our linkshell best. You haven't fought it yet and when you do, I'm sure you guys will find a way that best suits you.

[Kurtalicious]

Found a video that might have some more relevance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pW39RBZV49g

Oh oh! Look at those players!

[Kurtalicious]

The difference between the frequency in tp moves on eden vs retail are staggering. One comparison of Eden to these retail accurate videos is all you need to know that this mob is not behaving correctly and some major adjustments are warranted.

[everlast101069]

https://youtu.be/tWCWQlRBxRE

I found this video of a whm soloing. It's speed up some but if you slow it down to regular speed from 2x you can see tp gain on cerberus lower hp % is almost a back to back tp move. Maybe this helps for this discussion about him specifically.

[Cheese-Sandwich]

These videos seem a bit difficult to gauge tp gain compared to how its been getting killed on Eden. Video #1 has melee and rangers plowing him and Video #2 is a mythic whm who is also feeding him tp by getting hit by auto attacks. Much different from our approach of not getting hit and having the majority of our damage coming from Summoners. Additionally if a Gates does go off, its effectively reseting his tp back to 0 which happens here because the cast time is too fast.

Not trying to have a never-ending debate. I'm just saying there needs to be a better way to accurately analyze the fight.

[Kurtalicious]

It's not our responsibility to analyze or debate. All we get to do is say hey something is not right. It's the devs responsibility to figure it out.

"3. If something feels like it is broken, either not like it was on era retail or a potential exploit or too overpowered. (read: if something seems like it was not intentional from the development team) report it. Knowingly taking advantage of these activities is NOT allowed."

[Far-The-Killer]

It's not our responsibility to analyze or debate. All we get to do is say hey something is not right. It's the devs responsibility to figure it out.

"3. If something feels like it is broken, either not like it was on era retail or a potential exploit or too overpowered. (read: if something seems like it was not intentional from the development team) report it. Knowingly taking advantage of these activities is NOT allowed."

That's not true. We welcome all feedback and any player based findings (thus the contribution channel in the discord). However, extensive debate would probably be better suited to discord or the forums.

[slassen]

I don’t mind it being here so it’s all in one place and we can easily make judgement calls. As long as it’s about a bug / invalid behavior. If it’s a feature request or some ooe request maybe go to the forums.

[Kurtalicious]

It's not our responsibility to analyze or debate. All we get to do is say hey something is not right. It's the devs responsibility to figure it out. "3. If something feels like it is broken, either not like it was on era retail or a potential exploit or too overpowered. (read: if something seems like it was not intentional from the development team) report it. Knowingly taking advantage of these activities is NOT allowed."

That's not true. We welcome all feedback and any player based findings (thus the contribution channel in the discord). However, extensive debate would probably be better suited to discord or the forums.

I appreciate it when you call me a liar because it forces me to self reflect. So, I'll use different words that say the same thing just differently.

Don't bother analyzing and debating because devs will totally disregard all feedback, analyze and debate amongst themselves, make a 100% objective and unbiased judgement call to create the absolute best solution in the world. ;-)

[Oyaziiiiiii]

Found a video that might have some more relevance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pW39RBZV49g

Oh oh! Look at those players!

That was the first ever kill on gilgamesh before any strategies were formed and before anyone knew anything about the fight. It shows nothing as there are rangers on it full time. The MNK video I posted is the best indication that there likely was regain, as there are stretches where it appears that no TP is fed but it still uses TP. Cerberus should not spam TP if melees aren't going ham on it and if tanks aren't bloodtanking. From the video I posted, it looks like TP usage every 35-40s seems accurate under 25% with no tp feed.

[Jimmayus]

https://youtu.be/DjO27kDhEBA

tl;dw: Cerberus does not have regain 25% and above at all. Cerberus will get enough tp on his own below 25% to use a tp move every 30 seconds. Cerberus will not immediately use a weaponskill when stunned either above or below 25%. I suspect that is a false positive impression people developed erroneously from retail.

Incidentally while you can see Cerberus' actual magic defense is lower than the typical monster, he has a a raw mdt-% (or perhaps a specific resistance to light damage as well?) that causes Carbuncle meteorite on retail to top out at around 257 damage unsupported.

[59blargedy]

i don't see anything in this thread that reflects an issue to be resolved, so closing.