Major changes for 0.4.0

[NielsPilgaard]

Mod Removals:

• [x] Extra Discs (Replaced by ExtraStorage)
• [x] Bad Wither No Cookie Reloaded (Replaced by Extreme Sound Muffler)
• [x] Useful Backpacks (Replaced by Sophisticated Backpacks)
• [x] Ensorcelled (Turns out CoFH Ensorcellation has a similar enchant)
• [x] Biomes O' Plenty (Not needed)
• [x] Fishing Real (Less point without Aquaculture): Removed early.
• [x] Tinkers Mechworks (Content overlap)
• [x] QuantumStorage (Replaced by Industrial Foregoing Black Hole Tanks/Units)
• [x] Rare Ice (It annoys me because it keeps it's config open at all times)
• [x] Angel Ring (Many other ways to fly in a more balanced way)
• [x] Additional Bars? (Doesn't add much uniqueness)
• [x] Dangerous Stonecutter (More annoyance than fun feature)
• [x] Snow Under Trees

Mods to investigate:

• [x] BetterEnd Forge [#812]

Mod Additions:

• [x] TerraForged

Datapack Changes:

• [x] Move all non-Vanilla Tetra Datapack materials into a compat subfolder, to correctly override Tetra's own.

Script Changes:

• [x] remove.js
  • remove section that removes ExtraStorage disc recipes
• [x] Remove outcommented scripts (marked with //TODO: Remove

Config Changes:

• [x] Update default keybindings Lost Trinkets disabling will no longer happen, as the ones we deem too powerful no longer unlock randomly. This allows us to use them as rewards and the like.

[Thiana]

How will the removal of Biomes O' Plenty effect existing 0.3.x worlds?

[NielsPilgaard]

I don't know to be honest, but these changes won't be made until a time where we recommend a world reset anyway.

[Natalia-Oreiro]

when updating to version 4.0, will the world be completely erased on the official E6 server? a good solution would be to keep the chunks that are claimed and remove the others.

[merlerm]

World resets are highly likely in between major updates, since we're going to use them to implement new worldgen or breaking changes. No way around it I'm afraid, claimed chunks would be very broken in new worldgen, especially if terraforged is ready for 0.4 It's the unfortunate nature with beta packs

[Natalia-Oreiro]

so will there be a complete reset and everyone will lose everything or no?

[merlerm]

That's very likely, yes

[merlerm]

Tinker's Mechworks should probably also be removed. It only adds drawbridges, covered by modular routers, and firestarters, which can easily be emulated with a fake player

[NielsPilgaard]

Do Modular Routers work well as drawbridge?

[TemperedFool]

I feel like this will be one of a hundred "but couldn't you just..." comments, but drawbridges seem like a task Create was built for?

[MuteTiefling]

Do Modular Routers work well as drawbridge?

They work very well, actually

[NielsPilgaard]

Right, true. Bye Mechworks!

[Thiana]

My E6 World 3 had lots of cold biomes and Rare ice does generate without issue. Though it's more annoying than anything else since if you accidentally right click anything on ice the item is placed into the ice and you need to break it out.

[KrAzYGEEK32]

My E6 World 3 had lots of cold biomes and Rare ice does generate without issue. Though it's more annoying than anything else since if you accidentally right click anything on ice the item is placed into the ice and you need to break it out.

i believe its normal ice, it just behaves that way due to the mod, basically if any item is clicked onto ice, it will become rare ice and hold the item, atleast that's what i understand.

[merlerm]

Here's a few more suggestions by my part:

• Switch Iron Chests with Expanded Storage (https://www.curseforge.com/minecraft/mc-mods/expanded-storage-forge): this was suggested before on discord and I finally decided to take a look: the mod is really well done and it's honestly an objective upgrade over Iron Chests, so I'd push for the switch. The only concern I have about it blocking it for now is this issue (https://github.com/NinjaPhenix/ForgeMods/issues/11) I reported, so let's see how that turns out before anything. If it's fixed, I'd love to see it included

• Reconsider Flux Networks: another popular one that's asked a lot on discord, and after looking into it I'd include it. The wireless FE stuff is pretty redundant, as we already have other ways to do it in the pack, but we don't have anything that resembles the controller and the amount of control it gives over your power grid. Currently there's nothing to monitor your inputs and outputs, and I've seen many people ask for stuff like that. Especially in upcoming expert, being able to know detailed stats about your power is very useful, and there aren't alternatives in the pack rn

• Extended Crafting (https://www.curseforge.com/minecraft/mc-mods/extended-crafting): not sure what the plans are for expert, but it might come in useful, so I thought I'd at least mention it here. It could probably be added and hidden for now, but I guess we can always put it in later when it's needed. Same could be said for avaritia I guess, even if I'm not a fan of it at all, depends what direction you want to take expert. Might need some discussion.

• Just Enough Calculation (https://www.curseforge.com/minecraft/mc-mods/just-enough-calculation): another one that was rejected in the past and that I'd reconsider more for the future expert mode. I still understand your viewpoint that most players wouldn't use this, but with an introductory quest it would actually be a really great tool for most, especially in an eventual expert pack with RS not being immediately available. I would throw this in personally, seems like a very useful and harmless addition

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[MuteTiefling]

Flux networks always felt really buggy to me. Have not tried it yet in 1.16, but it was prone to... weirdness even late in 1.12. ID should fill this niche, honestly. It has all the tools for those willing to build it. I'd imagine Computer Craft can be used to build a decent display as well.

Extended crafting seems rather redundant at this point. Larger crafting grid? Create has it covered. Infusion style crafting? Ars Nouveau and Botania both have mechanics for this. Granted, we don't have an RF variant of any of these. But... is that needed? It feels overdone. Like it's central to basically every large expert pack's endgame crafting.

JEC, I'd love to see, simply because I love the little mod. It's great prior to RS, and can be helpful even late into the game when trying to figure out more complicated things that don't make sense to run through RS.

[merlerm]

I'd still add flux networks, since those options have an extremely high entry point for the average player. I don't expect them to be able to code a CC power display or even use ID to do that, while the controller is a simple put down and use. I messed with it a bit in creative earlier and it seemed pretty good, but I'd likely have to play with it in survival more to see if it holds up.

I also agree on extended crafting tbh, I just thought I should mention it. If we find a way to not include it I'd be all for it

[TemperedFool]

On Flux Networks - my experience with it in 1.12 has been rock solid. You definitely CAN do all of this with ID/IT, and it's actually a bit of a problem from an Expert POV - ID/IT is way too cheap to work with, and crippling things like the Omnidirectional connector to compensate make some interesting wireless setups that you would probably be OK with otherwise more difficult to build.

[KrAzYGEEK32]

just mentioning, terraforged got a release recently https://www.curseforge.com/minecraft/mc-mods/terraforged/files/3181431

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[NielsPilgaard]

I will have another look at Flux Networks & JEC

[MuteTiefling]

Should we reconsider Botany Pots too? I feel like they were a nice stop gap early on in 1.15 and 1.16 when a lot of options weren't available. But now we've got many more interesting methods to automate farming, including machines like the Insolator and Garden cloches.

[merlerm]

I would be very fine with them gone

[NielsPilgaard]

That's not a half bad idea.

[theboo]

Yeet it... It's a crutch

[NielsPilgaard]

A crutch? 😄

[soepie7]

Why will Aquaculture be removed? Really liked that mod, spent time making an aquarium and everything.

[Mang0z]

Why will Aquaculture be removed? Really liked that mod, spent time making an aquarium and everything.

Yeah i agree i really liked aquaculture aswell

[Thiana]

I would prefer to keep Botany Pots because they are a nice compact way of keeping decorative blocks/flowers in stock. Building an IF/etc farms for 20+ types of trees (and can anything provide the flowers that BP can?) would rapidly damage server tps. If you want to massively nerf the pot speed to make IF/etc a far preferable alternative for farming large amounts it would be fine, but not completely removing it. Plus the non hopping pots are nice to use as a decorative item.

[soepie7]

Yea, only removing hopper pots may be a nice alternative; an easy way to farm early on, but only if you are willing to put in the manual effort for every single crop you harvest.

[Thiana]

Insolator seems to be able to farm a lot of the flowers that BP can but not all. And vice-versa. Also the Insolator seems to have more issues with missing outputs, ie Orchid Sapling not giving sticks/apples.

[soepie7]

For that argument, we might be able to just add recipes to the Insolator.

[Thiana]

True, but I refer back to the pots are pretty in builds the TE block isnt.

[MuteTiefling]

Insolator seems to be able to farm a lot of the flowers that BP can but not all. And vice-versa. Also the Insolator seems to have more issues with missing outputs, ie Orchid Sapling not giving sticks/apples.

This stuff is fixable though. The majority of the plants in the isolator were added by us, in fact. If you see any missing, I'd appreciate a report so we can fix em.

[merlerm]

Why will Aquaculture be removed? Really liked that mod, spent time making an aquarium and everything.

I'm in favor of at least reconsidering aquaculture. It adds nice character to the world and does pretty much what alex mobs does to the water biomes. I haven't seen them pop up in any spark profiles or laggy situations, and I don't see the mod harming anything in the pack

[SeaSaltStar]

Why will Aquaculture be removed? Really liked that mod, spent time making an aquarium and everything.

I'm in favor of at least reconsidering aquaculture. It adds nice character to the world and does pretty much what alex mobs does to the water biomes. I haven't seen them pop up in any spark profiles or laggy situations, and I don't see the mod harming anything in the pack

The only reason I consider it harmful is that it affects squid spawns which are as of now essential for occultism progression.

[NielsPilgaard]

@SeaSaltStar in 0.3.11 Book and Quill accepts any black dye :)

[soepie7]

@SeaSaltStar in 0.3.11 Book and Quill accepts any black dye :)

Then, are there still reasons left on why to remove AquaCulture 2?

[NielsPilgaard]

Other than the fact that it adds more entities, which have the greatest lag potential (albeit Aquaculture does not seem to cause lag), and the content is a bit on the random/niche side, no.

Please keep in mind that removals happen to keep the pack light, so it can be run by as many as possible, and on servers too. We cannot just add all the mods.

[spdkils]

On pots.... Garden Cloche does it in 1 block just like pots, but eats power.... The other block does it as well in 1 block with power.

But there are 20 other ways to automate a garden. You can use ars, and spells, you can use botania, you can use create, etc etc etc. What is the point of the removal? This is a kitchen sink pack, and there are 40 ways of doing everything. Removing pots just makes the path of least resistance a garden Cloche, and just limits designs and builds.

So, not a fan of removal, personally.

UNLESS it's for server TPS or something, then that makes sense... but, I'm going to build 40 garden cloche, and everything tics.

[TemperedFool]

Ignoring the FPS render since most of the alternates have it too, it's just a much cheaper version of the cloche, and the mod does nothing else. All those other mods do lots of stuff that justify their existence. You also need some IE infrastructure to get to cloches; all you need to get hopping botany pots is go for a swim and do a little mining you were already going to do.

[Kinagh]

On pots...I do not get why having something that means all you have to do is "go for a swim and do a little mining" is bad. I play this stuff for relaxation and am not looking for a second job =). Having an aesthetically pleasing and easy way to grow some stuff placed on pretty looking chests and not needing power is great for those of us who do not have hours and hours to play.

[TemperedFool]

Sorry, it wasn't a value judgement, but I was just putting up my interpretation of why Botany Pots is up for discussion. I totally get personally what you're saying - I'm an adult with 2 kids and a full-time job, I definitely get it! I can just see why the discussion is happening on whether or not to keep it.

[toothmonsterr]

I wanted to throw in my two cents for keeping Aquaculture: It makes an otherwise really empty part of the world feel very alive. Fishing without it is so monotonous and boring and having the tackle box and actual living fish in the water makes it much more tolerable. I've never had any issue with squid spawning, in fact i get plenty beaching themselves at my base that I don't even have to hunt them down. And the ability to smelt jellyfish into slime is such a lifesaver for the massive amount of recipes that need slime in the pack. I'm not sure what the downsides to it are, honestly, unless it's being replaced with a different aqua-life mod.

[Mang0z]

An issue with Terraforged that i would like to mention before it is added, Most BYG biomes do not spawn with terraforged i would say a good 60% of biomes dont spawn with terraforged installed Just thought id let you guys know before you add it

[merlerm]

On pots...I do not get why having something that means all you have to do is "go for a swim and do a little mining" is bad. I play this stuff for relaxation and am not looking for a second job =). Having an aesthetically pleasing and easy way to grow some stuff placed on pretty looking chests and not needing power is great for those of us who do not have hours and hours to play.

On this, I don't really agree. While I get it and it's true, imo it's a little too easy, and it completely kills one aspect/farm you could do. By that logic you could argue that mining takes time, so we should implement a way to constantly farm materials super early and so on. Sure, it's a kitchen sink pack where you can do what you want, but it also means that we need to make all options valuable and satisfying. Pots not only break every other farming option in the game, but also aren't satisfying at all, since you can just mass produce them. I don't think progressing a bit into IE/IF/Thermal/Astral (and more likely) for a tree farm takes too much time, and the end result is much more satisfying, as it's a whole setup you had to work to achieve. If we had magic block solutions for every item in the game then you might as well play creative

[merlerm]

An issue with Terraforged that i would like to mention before it is added, Most BYG biomes do not spawn with terraforged i would say a good 60% of biomes dont spawn with terraforged installed Just thought id let you guys know before you add it

That can be configured and we're working on it. Also even with default TF touching no configs I had BYG biomes spawning

[CosmicMermaid]

Regarding Botany Pots, I'd like to keep the mod. Everyone has a different game-play style. Don't use the pots if you don't like them. Simple. I just got into the pots and I've been playing for over a month. I've been gathering resources all this time and just got tired of it. Saves me time to do other things in the modpack. I got ore-tripling before I started using the pots. Am I missing something with the pots? I'm basically growing trees and crops.

[Darkere]

What you are describing is exactly rhe problem. Botany pots overshadows all other methods of obtaining these materials.

Because of botany pots you are now not playing and discovering all the other possible ways you could farm these materials. Additionally scaling up production of these materials is incredibly boring when using them (Not to mention pretty ugly).

[CosmicMermaid]

Well, I beg to differ. I'm actually using the pots to free up time to explore the modpack more. I'm fairly new to mods so for me it's an intermediary solution. I'm getting into Ars Nouveau and Industrial Foregoing as we speak so I can then transition to those mods and upgrade. Like I said, everyone has different styles of playing. If I didn't have a simple way to automate crops I would have felt slightly overwhelmed. I also like to use a lot of the different woods, flowers, etc to decorate. I know that's not a big thing for folks in playing the mod. I have a whole greenhouse of pots growing flowers and trees to decorate my base. LOL Also, I'm attaching a couple of pics of my very cute setup which I far from ugly. Ok. I'm done. Thanks!

[msbrittgaming]

I guess I am not sure I understand why botany pots needs to be removed. People can either choose to use them or not. I am working my way through the mods and would like to spend my limited time on things I care about the most. If botany pots lets me grow sugarcane easy because I need a lot of paper and I CHOOSE that method over a method another mod offers, what's the harm to anyone else not in my game? At the moment I am using various mods to do different things and I love I could choose my preference. It seems the reason for removing the pots is to force people to play a certain way and I thought games like this were meant to allow you to play in the way that suits you? How I choose to get the resource should be up to me. Now if the issue is people are on servers where they feel it is unfair that others can use pots so easily, then that's a personal issue. I for one am on a server with 2 other people and we like the pots because it frees up our time to do other things we enjoy. And if someone is going to play a pack like this with lots of mods and chooses not to get into certain mods because they don't want to, again, that's their choice, who is it hurting? Just my thoughts on why I don't think it should be removed, it seems the reasons are to control how people play which is a little odd, it's a game.

[TemperedFool]

I think that is exactly why their removal is being considered. They don't inspire farming creatively. I get that they easily get resources for doing other things - I use them too! But it's also caused me not to bother with other farming methods, because tbh they are too good.

It would make it easier to play with various mods mechanically if you just had creative access to resources. The point of a mod pack that isn't All The Mods is to draw some lines on what content is included, and hopefully balance things a bit. Otherwise we'd all just throw together a jumble of mods and call it a day.

As a thought experiment, and maybe actual suggestion, what if just Hopping Botany pots were removed? They really are the bigger problem from a balance POV; the regular ones still provide a bit of utility early-game, but don't just eliminate the need for other automated farming methods.