Delay Boids crashes Live 10

[MarcoTheCat]

Hello, just thought I'd let you know that when I dropped the Delay Boids plug-in into my project on several channels it crashed Live 10. When I try to delete the plug-in from my project it crashes as well. Otherwise, I'm enjoying the other plug-ins which sound great, thanks!

[ramagottfried]

hello! I'd love to be able to reproduce your crash, can you give any more information about how to make it crash? It seems stable here.

[MarcoTheCat]

Sure.  I have 7 channels of audio that come in from a synthesizer with multiple outputs, and each channel gets spatialized independently.  I was adding each Envelop delay type to each channel 1 by 1 and listening to the result.  Then I'd turn it off and add another.  When I got to Delay Boids and added it to a few channels and tweaked the parameters I got a crash.  I decided I'd better remove this plug-in from my channels and got a series of crashes in a row.  I finally managed to remove all but 1 copy of the plug in, created a new channel without Boids, then tried to delete the channel and it crashed again.  I cannot delete this channel without a crash so I've left it alone.  I have the crash log if you'd like to see it. Thanks, Tom On Monday, February 22, 2021, 12:48:20 PM PST, rama gottfried notifications@github.com wrote:

hello! I'd love to be able to reproduce your crash, can you give any more information about how to make it crash? It seems stable here.

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[ramagottfried]

Ok sure the crash log would be helpful. Are you also using Max? If so, can you try updating to the latest version of Max that just came out yesterday?

P.S. For the crash log, if you could upload it as a file, or make a public gist, that would be great rather than pasting the text.

[MarcoTheCat]

Hi Rama, here's the crash log.Also, I was trying to export the audio from my Envelop-enhanced project as a stereo file and wasn't happy with the stereo rendering, so I tried turning everything off and even eliminated the E4L Master track and routed the audio to the normal Master track, but the Ableton Export renders a totally silent file.  Do I really need to get rid of every Envelop plugin in the project for the render to work as normal? Yes, I do have Max. Thanks

On Monday, February 22, 2021, 10:26:32 PM PST, rama gottfried <notifications@github.com> wrote:  

Ok sure the crash log would be helpful. Are you also using Max? If so, can you try updating to the latest version of Max that just came out yesterday?

P.S. For the crash log, if you could upload it as a file, or make a public gist, that would be great rather than pasting the text.

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[ramagottfried]

Hi Tom, sorry I don't see the crash log, can you try sending again? Can you also let me know the version of Max? There was a new version released yesterday, not sure if that would fix it but possibly. Also make sure that you have the Live preferences setup to use the Max app rather than the bundled version of Max.

Also, there was one person who was able to reproduce the crash, who then installed Live 11 and the crash disappeared. So if you can try Live 11 that is a possible fix as well. (edit: two people have now reported this fixes the problem)

So far I haven't been able to reproduce the crash so it's difficult to debug.

RE: rendering to stereo, the way the E4L system works is through passing Ambisonic encoded signals through the MaxForLive API. The first two channels are not used by E4L, in order to avoid sending the Ambisonic signals to the normal master tracks which could be very loud if not decoded correctly.

The E4L devices do pass through the stereo signal however, so for instance if you wanted to bypass the E4L devices you can disable the devices on the track and then set the send to main track to send to Master. I just tested this and it exports correctly.

[MarcoTheCat]

Thanks, I hope you can see this:

On Tuesday, February 23, 2021, 01:30:48 PM PST, rama gottfried <notifications@github.com> wrote:  

Hi Tom, sorry I don't see the crash log, can you try sending again? Can you also let me know the version of Max? There was a new version released yesterday, not sure if that would fix it but possibly. Also make sure that you have the Live preferences setup to use the Max app rather than the bundled version of Max.

Also, there was one person who was able to reproduce the crash, who then installed Live 11 and the crash disappeared. So if you can try Live 11 that is a possible fix as well.

So far I haven't been able to reproduce the crash so it's difficult to debug.

RE: rendering to stereo, the way the E4L system works is through passing Ambisonic encoded signals through the MaxForLive API. The first two channels are not used by E4L, in order to avoid sending the Ambisonic signals to the normal master tracks which could be very loud if not decoded correctly.

The E4L devices do pass through the stereo signal however, so for instance if you wanted to bypass the E4L devices you can disable the devices on the track and then set the send to main track to send to Master. I just tested this and it exports correctly.

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[MarcoTheCat]

I tried turning off the plugins and sending the output of the audio tracks to the Master, but there was still no audio in the output files.  The version of Max I use now is 8.1.18.  I can try to download the latest versions< I have to check on the capabilities because I'm using the Live API's for some of the plugins I wrote in Max. Thanks On Tuesday, February 23, 2021, 02:29:16 PM PST, Thomas Miley tmiley@sbcglobal.net wrote:

Thanks, I hope you can see this:

On Tuesday, February 23, 2021, 01:30:48 PM PST, rama gottfried <notifications@github.com> wrote:  

Hi Tom, sorry I don't see the crash log, can you try sending again? Can you also let me know the version of Max? There was a new version released yesterday, not sure if that would fix it but possibly. Also make sure that you have the Live preferences setup to use the Max app rather than the bundled version of Max.

Also, there was one person who was able to reproduce the crash, who then installed Live 11 and the crash disappeared. So if you can try Live 11 that is a possible fix as well.

So far I haven't been able to reproduce the crash so it's difficult to debug.

RE: rendering to stereo, the way the E4L system works is through passing Ambisonic encoded signals through the MaxForLive API. The first two channels are not used by E4L, in order to avoid sending the Ambisonic signals to the normal master tracks which could be very loud if not decoded correctly.

The E4L devices do pass through the stereo signal however, so for instance if you wanted to bypass the E4L devices you can disable the devices on the track and then set the send to main track to send to Master. I just tested this and it exports correctly.

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[ramagottfried]

Hi Tom, unfortunately the crash logs are still not showing up here -- if you want you can send me the crash logs as a direct message?

For the output bus questions, best to make a separate issue in the issue tracker if you think you have found a bug, if we can reproduce it we would definitely like to fix it. If you can make a simplified live project that illustrates the problem, and a set of steps to reproduce your results that would be helpful.

[MarcoTheCat]

Don't see how I can send the file through Gist which doesn't allow a drag and drop operation.  I have an ableton-formatted zip file which I can't open with my apps so I can't copy and paste, and the Gist interface doesn't allow drag and drop.  Sending a message seems to go to the entire github and I don't know whether there is any sensitive data in it that points back to my computer.  If you had a facebook I could message it there...Tom On Tuesday, February 23, 2021, 10:41:56 PM PST, rama gottfried notifications@github.com wrote:

Hi Tom, unfortunately the crash logs are still not showing up here -- if you want you can send me the crash logs as a direct message?

For the output bus questions, best to make a separate issue in the issue tracker if you think you have found a bug, if we can reproduce it we would definitely like to fix it. If you can make a simplified live project that illustrates the problem, and a set of steps to reproduce your results that would be helpful.

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[ramagottfried]

Hi Tom, I sent you an email yesterday, maybe check your junk folder if you didn't see it? you can send me the ableton zip file directly if you like. (p.s. to unzip the ableton log on mac I had to use the terminal last time) -- I'll send another email now.

Did you try Live 11?

[ramagottfried]

Also please let us know if the latest Max update fixes the issue? (also making sure that the Max.app is selected in the Live preferences rather than the bundled version?)

[MarcoTheCat]

Hi Rama, I haven't gotten any crashes lately.  Right now I'm trying to figure out how I can make a binaural mix that can play as a regular stereo file.  I have set the output from the E4L Master Bus to Binaural 3rd Order and recorded my output but I can't play the file in the normal playback applications.  I dragged the file into Audacity and exported it to MP3 but I had to assign all 16 channels to the 2 stereo channels.  I alternated the outputs of each of the 16 tracks to left and right, and listened to the results but it seems that sometimes the volume level dips as though the phasing is reducing the volume.  Is this the proper way to end up with a playable stereo (binaural) mp3 file? Thanks for any help, Thomas On Thursday, February 25, 2021, 12:55:40 AM PST, rama gottfried @.***> wrote:

Also please let us know if the latest Max update fixes the issue? (also making sure that the Max.app is selected in the Live preferences rather than the bundled version?)

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[mcslee]

Hi Thomas - if you want to record the output of the Binaural Decoder, you don't need to use the recording feature of the E4L Master bus device. Simply set the decoder to either of the Binaural options, and ensure that Monitor 1+2 switch is engaged. This will send the 2 channels of Binaural through the Ableton main mix bus. If you do a normal Ableton export from there, you will have a 2-channel binaural file.

The E4L Master Bus recording feature always exports a pre-decode ambisonics file, regardless of what decoder is selected. So that's not what you want to get binaural output.

Hope that helps!

[MarcoTheCat]

Yes it does, thanks!

On Friday, April 2, 2021, 12:18:45 PM PDT, Mark Slee ***@***.***> wrote:  

Hi Thomas - if you want to record the output of the Binaural Decoder, you don't need to use the recording feature of the E4L Master bus device. Simply set the decoder to either of the Binaural options, and ensure that Monitor 1+2 switch is engaged. This will send the 2 channels of Binaural through the Ableton main mix bus. If you do a normal Ableton export from there, you will have a 2-channel binaural file.

The E4L Master Bus recording feature always exports a pre-decode ambisonics file, regardless of what decoder is selected. So that's not what you want to get binaural output.

Hope that helps!

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[MarcoTheCat]

Hi Mark, I tried an export from the Master tracks and I got an empty file as output.  The E4L Master shows ghosted output on the meters and the main Master shows input happening above the main meters but the meters themselves are ghosted out.  I noticed I always only get a file with audio in it if I hit the main record button as well as the record button on the E4L Master Bus, could this be the same issue for normal export if I have a project with E4L enabled? Thanks On Friday, April 2, 2021, 01:25:02 PM PDT, Thomas Miley @.***> wrote:

Yes it does, thanks!

On Friday, April 2, 2021, 12:18:45 PM PDT, Mark Slee ***@***.***> wrote:  

Hi Thomas - if you want to record the output of the Binaural Decoder, you don't need to use the recording feature of the E4L Master bus device. Simply set the decoder to either of the Binaural options, and ensure that Monitor 1+2 switch is engaged. This will send the 2 channels of Binaural through the Ableton main mix bus. If you do a normal Ableton export from there, you will have a 2-channel binaural file.

The E4L Master Bus recording feature always exports a pre-decode ambisonics file, regardless of what decoder is selected. So that's not what you want to get binaural output.

Hope that helps!

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[mcslee]

I'm not sure why your E4L would show "ghosted" output. You shouldn't touch any of the recording controls within E4L Master Bus whatsoever.

Images below show what things should look like - you should see green live meters on both E4L Master Bus and on the Ableton Master Bus.

[mcslee]

Make sure the "Audio to" setting of your channel with the E4L Master Bus is set to Master perhaps?

[MarcoTheCat]

Hi Mark.  Here you can see I have meters showing on the E4L Master bus but the Live Master is ghosted.  I am using 8 speakers with the first 2 as normal stereo monitoring which is disabled in Octo mode.  I set the Monitor 1& 2 on in Binaural but it didn't lead to audio in my file.  In this project I did have some difficulty hearing some of the tracks when I removed some of the E4L plugins (especially the DelayBoids) util I added the E4L Meter to the tracks,  Only Zplane1-7 are set to play audio. On Friday, April 2, 2021, 03:51:29 PM PDT, Mark Slee @.***> wrote:

Make sure the "Audio to" setting of your channel with the E4L Master Bus is set to Master perhaps?

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[mcslee]

Hi Marco - it does not look like your screenshot images have been received.

Try going to https://github.com/EnvelopSound/EnvelopForLive/issues/72 and adding them directly on the GitHub thread?

[MarcoTheCat]

[MarcoTheCat]

I uploaded it, thanks.

On Friday, April 2, 2021, 04:13:54 PM PDT, Mark Slee ***@***.***> wrote:  

Hi Marco - it does not look like your screenshot images have been received.

Try going to #72 and adding them directly on the GitHub thread?

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[mcslee]

The issue is that your channel with the E4L Master bus has its output routing set to "Sends Only" - because of that no audio is coming out to the Ableton Master track. Flip that setting to "Master."

[MarcoTheCat]

I set it to Master but I have the same result, no output to Master (other than the small meters above the main ones showing input)

[MarcoTheCat]

![Uploading image.png…]()

[MarcoTheCat]

[MarcoTheCat]

OK, I clicked the Monitor 1&2 button and am getting the output on the Master. I am wondering whether this interferes with the spatialization, since I'm using the same monitors for outputting as part of the 8-channel array?

[MarcoTheCat]

I tried an export with a Binaural(3rd order) setting and get an empty aif and mp3 file, unfortunately.

[MarcoTheCat]

Thanks Mark, I updated the comments on Github.

On Friday, April 2, 2021, 04:21:58 PM PDT, Mark Slee ***@***.***> wrote:  

The issue is that your channel with the E4L Master bus has its output routing set to "Sends Only" - because of that no audio is coming out to the Ableton Master track. Flip that setting to "Master."

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[MarcoTheCat]

As you can see in the screengrab I changed the output to Master. It was only when I clicked the Monitor 1&2 that I got output on the main Master meters, but Export Audio still doesn't work right.

[mcslee]

Can you send a screenshot with your most recent configuration? Are you still getting a totally empty file? If there is audio showing on the Ableton Master channel, that should be exported.

Do you have material in your arrangement view to be exported? In your export dialog have you selected "Rendered Track" to be "Master" with an appropriate Render Start and Render Length?

[MarcoTheCat]

Yes, here:

[MarcoTheCat]

OK, I think I did something dumb, I have recorded MIDI files that play in realtime but the audio is captured on the fly. Duh!

[MarcoTheCat]

But this brings up another issue. I am spatializing audio in realtime from an external synth that is inputting on 7 audio channels, should I record 7 tracks of audio and then somehow spatialize things? I am sending MIDI data to the E4L Panners to position the incoming audio.

[MarcoTheCat]

More questions on Github... On Friday, April 2, 2021, 05:00:07 PM PDT, Mark Slee @.***> wrote:

Can you send a screenshot with your most recent configuration? Are you still getting a totally empty file? If there is audio showing on the Ableton Master channel, that should be exported.

Do you have material in your arrangement view to be exported? In your export dialog have you selected "Rendered Track" to be "Master" with an appropriate Render Start and Render Length?

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[mcslee]

If you want to record binaural in real-time with the incoming midi data, you can do what is shown below. Create a dummy audio track, set it to receive its audio input from the E4L Master Bus, arm it to record, and then once you hit record it will be capturing the stereo binaural output of the E4L Master bus in real-time. You can then just grab the audio from the audio clip that is created on that Capture channel.

[mcslee]

Here's a screenshot with audio flowing so you can see it. You probably want to mute the Capture track since there's no need for that audio to go to the master bus two times.

[MarcoTheCat]

Thanks, I'll give it a try!

[TheSad0]

Hi, apparently the topic changed halfway through but I still have this problem and no answer. Many thanks!

Ableton Crash Report 2023-02-16 140155 Live 10.1.30.zip