After Sonoma 14.2 Update Bluetooth Multi-Device Aggragates Don't Work

[daakal]

Please Confirm

• [X] I have read the FAQ and Wiki where most common issues can be resolved
• [X] I have searched Discussions to see if the same question has already been asked
• [X] This is a bug and not a question about audio routing or configuration, which should be posted in Discussions

macOS Version

macOS 13 Ventura

BlackHole Build(s) Affected

• [X] 2 channel
• [ ] 16 channel
• [ ] 64 channel
• [ ] other/custom build

Describe the bug

M1 MBP 13" 32gb running macOS Sonoma 14.2. Blackhole-2ch worked perfectly for the previous OS 14.1 and for all of 2022-2023. After the weekend update patch, experienced cycling of microphone and audio devices rapidly in Zoom, watching sound profiles I could see the menu refresh each cycle, and through testing discovered the issue did not present itself to other systems or Zoom if I connected either the local MacBook speakers, or direct to the Bluetooth headset (tried multiple). But as soon as I connected the multi-device (Blackhole-2ch and something else) the issue would present across all mediums, even watching YouTube from Microsoft Edge.

Followed the steps to uninstall and re-install with terminal using brew. Had to restart once during the process as the command to restart the core audio drivers hung for 10 minutes.

Reproduction Steps

1. confirm you have a multi-output device configured to use Blackhole-2ch (for OBS in my case, recording Zoom calls)
2. upgrade to macOS Sonoma 14.2
3. attempt to run OBS / Zoom, or just Zoom, or youtube and you should experience a lag effect as the system tries to run the sound through the Multi-Device Output.
4. Switch you sound to single device (headset or speakers and repeat the above test and sound should work fine. experience

Expected Behavior

sound expected to connect and play through, it does not.

Screenshots

[devinroth]

Does the multi-output work as expected without BlackHole?

[devinroth]

Any crash logs in Console?

[daakal]

Does the multi-output work as expected without BlackHole?

As soon as I'm out of this meeting I'll attempt a combo of other devices.

Any crash logs in Console?

A bunch, this is the first bug I've tried to report, how would you like me to share?

[devinroth]

I think you can export them. Put them in a folder, zip it up, and attach.

Devin On Dec 19, 2023 at 6:05 AM -0800, Jonathan LeComte @.***>, wrote:

Does the multi-output work as expected without BlackHole? As soon as I'm out of this meeting I'll attempt a combo of other devices. Any crash logs in Console? A bunch, this is the first bug I've tried to report, how would you like me to share? Screen.Shot.Console.2023-12-19.09-04-13.png (view on web) — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub, or unsubscribe. You are receiving this because you commented.Message ID: @.***>

[daakal]

logs.zip

[devinroth]

Any update on using the multi-output without BlackHole?

Devin On Dec 19, 2023 at 7:43 AM -0800, Jonathan LeComte @.***>, wrote:

logs.zip — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub, or unsubscribe. You are receiving this because you commented.Message ID: @.***>

[devinroth]

What version of BlackHole are you using? You can find the version number in the info.plist in the .driver folder. Just send a screenshot.

[devinroth]

All the CoreAudio crashes show the same thing. EXC_BAD_ACCESS on audio IO: ~:AMS2_StackedOutput:2 which means the multi-output is trying to read non-existent memory. I'll see if I can reproduce.

[devinroth]

Good news. I was able to reproduce.

Bad news. I was able to reproduce using my MacBook's Build In Speakers which means this isn't a BlackHole issue. Please report to Apple. Who knows when they will actually fix it.

Good news. I built an app called Dipper that eliminates the need for an aggregate / multi-output and it should solve your problems. https://dipper.audio.

Sorry I can't help more.

[devinroth]

I'll also report.

[gchilds]

Can you describe your repro @devinroth or are aggregates simply broken on 14.2?

[daakal]

Good news. I was able to reproduce.

Bad news. I was able to reproduce using my MacBook's Build In Speakers which means this isn't a BlackHole issue. Please report to Apple. Who knows when they will actually fix it.

Good news. I built an app called Dipper that eliminates the need for an aggregate / multi-output and it should solve your problems. https://dipper.audio.

Sorry I can't help more.

Thank you for digging into this Devin, really appreciate your time, sorry I was away from my work machine last night and did not get back to you more promptly!! Also really awesome with Dipper, I'll test that out!

I'll report to Apple as well to increase numbers

[devinroth]

Can you describe your repro @devinroth or are aggregates simply broken on 14.2?

Create a multi-output with AirPods and macbook speakers Opened Zoom and set output to the multi-output (it still works at this point) Set input to Airpods. CoreAudio Crash.

What I suspect is happening is when the AirPods mic is being used the output format is changed to mono and I don't think multi-outputs handle that properly. This could have been an issue in earlier macOS versions. I'll have to check.

So broken when using Bluetooth.

[daakal]

the specific issue did not present itself in 14.1 or any of the earlier Sonoma beta's. I ran those on my work machine for weeks. It started with 14.2 and I realized it because I record nearly all of my calls daily w/ OBS

[devinroth]

And just for the record, I used macOS 14.3 beta to reproduce so don’t expect Apple to fix this anytime soon.

Devin On Dec 20, 2023 at 8:21 AM -0800, Jonathan LeComte @.***>, wrote:

the specific issue did not present itself in 14.1 or any of the earlier Sonoma beta's. I ran those on my work machine for weeks. It started with 14.2 and I realized it because I record nearly all of my calls daily w/ OBS — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub, or unsubscribe. You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID: @.***>

[aabstrkt]

Dipper looks interesting but what are the in-app purchases

On Wed, 20 Dec 2023 at 15:00, Jonathan LeComte @.***> wrote:

Good news. I was able to reproduce.

Bad news. I was able to reproduce using my MacBook's Build In Speakers which means this isn't a BlackHole issue. Please report to Apple. Who knows when they will actually fix it.

Good news. I built an app called Dipper that eliminates the need for an aggregate / multi-output and it should solve your problems. https://dipper.audio.

Sorry I can't help more.

Thank you for digging into this Devin, really appreciate your time, sorry I was away from my work machine last night and did not get back to you more promptly!! Also really awesome with Dipper, I'll test that out!

I'll report to Apple as well to increase numbers

— Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/ExistentialAudio/BlackHole/issues/758#issuecomment-1864622222, or unsubscribe https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AHTZXDMF3V6MOXQZOKGU5RDYKL4RNAVCNFSM6AAAAABAZ7KQFKVHI2DSMVQWIX3LMV43OSLTON2WKQ3PNVWWK3TUHMYTQNRUGYZDEMRSGI . You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread.Message ID: @.***>

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07415 201433

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GAIA LIVE // the original internet broadcast platform

[devinroth]

It’s a paid app via the in app purchase. I wanted people to be able to try out the app before they pay so it comes with a free demo. You can test it out in your setup to make sure it does what you want before purchasing the full license.

Devin On Dec 20, 2023 at 8:57 AM -0800, AABSTRKT @.***>, wrote:

Dipper looks interesting but what are the in-app purchases

On Wed, 20 Dec 2023 at 15:00, Jonathan LeComte @.***> wrote:

Good news. I was able to reproduce.

Bad news. I was able to reproduce using my MacBook's Build In Speakers which means this isn't a BlackHole issue. Please report to Apple. Who knows when they will actually fix it.

Good news. I built an app called Dipper that eliminates the need for an aggregate / multi-output and it should solve your problems. https://dipper.audio.

Sorry I can't help more.

Thank you for digging into this Devin, really appreciate your time, sorry I was away from my work machine last night and did not get back to you more promptly!! Also really awesome with Dipper, I'll test that out!

I'll report to Apple as well to increase numbers

— Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/ExistentialAudio/BlackHole/issues/758#issuecomment-1864622222, or unsubscribe https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AHTZXDMF3V6MOXQZOKGU5RDYKL4RNAVCNFSM6AAAAABAZ7KQFKVHI2DSMVQWIX3LMV43OSLTON2WKQ3PNVWWK3TUHMYTQNRUGYZDEMRSGI . You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread.Message ID: @.***>

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[aabstrkt]

Cool would you mind saying how much? I’m a big fan of your work with Black Hole and happy to pay for

Gaia Live 1995 - 2023

---

@. @. 07415201433

On Wed, 20 Dec 2023 at 17:04, Devin Roth @.***> wrote:

It’s a paid app via the in app purchase. I wanted people to be able to try out the app before they pay so it comes with a free demo. You can test it out in your setup to make sure it does what you want before purchasing the full license.

Devin On Dec 20, 2023 at 8:57 AM -0800, AABSTRKT @.***>, wrote:

Dipper looks interesting but what are the in-app purchases

On Wed, 20 Dec 2023 at 15:00, Jonathan LeComte @.***> wrote:

Good news. I was able to reproduce.

Bad news. I was able to reproduce using my MacBook's Build In Speakers which means this isn't a BlackHole issue. Please report to Apple. Who knows when they will actually fix it.

Good news. I built an app called Dipper that eliminates the need for an aggregate / multi-output and it should solve your problems. https://dipper.audio.

Sorry I can't help more.

Thank you for digging into this Devin, really appreciate your time, sorry I was away from my work machine last night and did not get back to you more promptly!! Also really awesome with Dipper, I'll test that out!

I'll report to Apple as well to increase numbers

— Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub < https://github.com/ExistentialAudio/BlackHole/issues/758#issuecomment-1864622222>,

or unsubscribe < https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AHTZXDMF3V6MOXQZOKGU5RDYKL4RNAVCNFSM6AAAAABAZ7KQFKVHI2DSMVQWIX3LMV43OSLTON2WKQ3PNVWWK3TUHMYTQNRUGYZDEMRSGI>

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GAIA LIVE // the original internet broadcast platform — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub, or unsubscribe. You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID: @.***>

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[devinroth]

Right now it’s priced at $29 USD. I’m also planning on setting up an annual subscription for $10 due to many requests.

I haven’t been advertising yet. Soft release. I have been ironing out all the bugs, improving performance, and adding features. I’m pretty happy with the latest release v1.5. Might be time to start telling people.

Devin On Dec 20, 2023 at 9:10 AM -0800, AABSTRKT @.***>, wrote:

Cool would you mind saying how much? I’m a big fan of your work with Black Hole and happy to pay for

Gaia Live 1995 - 2023

---

@. @. 07415201433

On Wed, 20 Dec 2023 at 17:04, Devin Roth @.***> wrote:

It’s a paid app via the in app purchase. I wanted people to be able to try out the app before they pay so it comes with a free demo. You can test it out in your setup to make sure it does what you want before purchasing the full license.

Devin On Dec 20, 2023 at 8:57 AM -0800, AABSTRKT @.***>, wrote:

Dipper looks interesting but what are the in-app purchases

On Wed, 20 Dec 2023 at 15:00, Jonathan LeComte @.***> wrote:

Good news. I was able to reproduce.

Bad news. I was able to reproduce using my MacBook's Build In Speakers which means this isn't a BlackHole issue. Please report to Apple. Who knows when they will actually fix it.

Good news. I built an app called Dipper that eliminates the need for an aggregate / multi-output and it should solve your problems. https://dipper.audio.

Sorry I can't help more.

Thank you for digging into this Devin, really appreciate your time, sorry I was away from my work machine last night and did not get back to you more promptly!! Also really awesome with Dipper, I'll test that out!

I'll report to Apple as well to increase numbers

— Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub < https://github.com/ExistentialAudio/BlackHole/issues/758#issuecomment-1864622222>,

or unsubscribe < https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AHTZXDMF3V6MOXQZOKGU5RDYKL4RNAVCNFSM6AAAAABAZ7KQFKVHI2DSMVQWIX3LMV43OSLTON2WKQ3PNVWWK3TUHMYTQNRUGYZDEMRSGI>

. You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread.Message ID: @.***>

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GAIA LIVE // the original internet broadcast platform — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub, or unsubscribe. You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID: @.***>

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[aabstrkt]

Thanks for the info I really appreciate it 👍

On Wed, 20 Dec 2023 at 17:17, Devin Roth @.***> wrote:

Right now it’s priced at $29 USD. I’m also planning on setting up an annual subscription for $10 due to many requests.

I haven’t been advertising yet. Soft release. I have been ironing out all the bugs, improving performance, and adding features. I’m pretty happy with the latest release v1.5. Might be time to start telling people.

Devin On Dec 20, 2023 at 9:10 AM -0800, AABSTRKT @.***>, wrote:

Cool would you mind saying how much? I’m a big fan of your work with Black Hole and happy to pay for

Gaia Live 1995 - 2023

---

@. @. 07415201433

On Wed, 20 Dec 2023 at 17:04, Devin Roth @.***> wrote:

It’s a paid app via the in app purchase. I wanted people to be able to try out the app before they pay so it comes with a free demo. You can test it out in your setup to make sure it does what you want before purchasing the full license.

Devin On Dec 20, 2023 at 8:57 AM -0800, AABSTRKT @.***>, wrote:

Dipper looks interesting but what are the in-app purchases

On Wed, 20 Dec 2023 at 15:00, Jonathan LeComte @.***> wrote:

Good news. I was able to reproduce.

Bad news. I was able to reproduce using my MacBook's Build In Speakers which means this isn't a BlackHole issue. Please report to Apple. Who knows when they will actually fix it.

Good news. I built an app called Dipper that eliminates the need for an aggregate / multi-output and it should solve your problems. https://dipper.audio.

Sorry I can't help more.

Thank you for digging into this Devin, really appreciate your time, sorry I was away from my work machine last night and did not get back to you more promptly!! Also really awesome with Dipper, I'll test that out!

I'll report to Apple as well to increase numbers

— Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <

https://github.com/ExistentialAudio/BlackHole/issues/758#issuecomment-1864622222>,

or unsubscribe <

https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AHTZXDMF3V6MOXQZOKGU5RDYKL4RNAVCNFSM6AAAAABAZ7KQFKVHI2DSMVQWIX3LMV43OSLTON2WKQ3PNVWWK3TUHMYTQNRUGYZDEMRSGI>

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GAIA LIVE 1995 - 2023

GAIA LIVE // the original internet broadcast platform

[daakal]

Devin! I tried Dipper its freaking great, If I buy it now, it's a 1-time thing or will I end up on a sub-trail long-term?

[devinroth]

Thanks Jonathan. Glad you like it.

One time purchase. Even if I add a subscription model in the future, I plan on keeping the non-subscription purchase.

It’s possible that there might be a charge to upgrade to version 2 but I’m nowhere near that.

And if you could spare some time, an App Store review would mean a lot to me.

Devin On Dec 20, 2023 at 12:23 PM -0800, Jonathan LeComte @.***>, wrote:

Devin! I tried Dipper its freaking great, If I buy it now, it's a 1-time thing or will I end up on a sub-trail long-term? — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub, or unsubscribe. You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID: @.***>

[gchilds]

Can you describe your repro @devinroth or are aggregates simply broken on 14.2?

Create a multi-output with AirPods and macbook speakers Opened Zoom and set output to the multi-output (it still works at this point) Set input to Airpods. CoreAudio Crash.

What I suspect is happening is when the AirPods mic is being used the output format is changed to mono and I don't think multi-outputs handle that properly. This could have been an issue in earlier macOS versions. I'll have to check.

So broken when using Bluetooth.

wow, nasty.

I found a fun aggregate bug last week (Ventura, Sonoma): enable voice isolation for your app, see your aggregate input mashed down to its first input device. You can repro in QuickTime Player. Voice isolation is probably an aggregate under the hood, and a very intrusive feature. Seems to affect all your input devices.

[gchilds]

Can you describe your repro @devinroth or are aggregates simply broken on 14.2?

Create a multi-output with AirPods and macbook speakers Opened Zoom and set output to the multi-output (it still works at this point) Set input to Airpods. CoreAudio Crash. What I suspect is happening is when the AirPods mic is being used the output format is changed to mono and I don't think multi-outputs handle that properly. This could have been an issue in earlier macOS versions. I'll have to check. So broken when using Bluetooth.

wow, nasty.

I found a fun aggregate bug last week (Ventura, Sonoma): enable voice isolation for your app, see your aggregate input mashed down to its first input device. You can repro in QuickTime Player. Voice isolation is probably an aggregate under the hood, and a very intrusive feature. Seems to affect all your input devices.

Yet another reason to not use an ASP device to communicate with your own app.

[devinroth]

I hate the voice isolation implementation on macOS. Such a botched job.

I’ve been avoiding aggregates for years. This wouldn’t be the first bug.

Devin On Dec 21, 2023 at 8:14 AM -0800, Gordon Childs @.***>, wrote:

Can you describe your repro @devinroth or are aggregates simply broken on 14.2? Create a multi-output with AirPods and macbook speakers Opened Zoom and set output to the multi-output (it still works at this point) Set input to Airpods. CoreAudio Crash. What I suspect is happening is when the AirPods mic is being used the output format is changed to mono and I don't think multi-outputs handle that properly. This could have been an issue in earlier macOS versions. I'll have to check. So broken when using Bluetooth. wow, nasty. I found a fun aggregate bug last week (Ventura, Sonoma): enable voice isolation for your app, see your aggregate input mashed down to its first input device. You can repro in QuickTime Player. Voice isolation is probably an aggregate under the hood, and a very intrusive feature. Seems to affect all your input devices. Yet another reason to not use an ASP device to communicate with your own app. — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub, or unsubscribe. You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID: @.***>

[a-tokarev]

Good news. I built an app called Dipper that eliminates the need for an aggregate / multi-output and it should solve your problems. https://dipper.audio.

Hi Devin, thank you for Black Hole! Great news about your new app, Dipper, I gave it a try already. Why it needs access to System Audio is perfectly clear, - but what does it need Screen Recording access for?

[devinroth]

It’s using screen capture to capture audio. The video portion is ignored.  That eliminates the need to set a virtual audio devices as the output and thus simplifies everything.

Maybe I should add a better explanation on the Dipper onboarding.

Devin On Dec 30, 2023 at 6:12 AM -0800, a-tokarev @.***>, wrote:

Good news. I built an app called Dipper that eliminates the need for an aggregate / multi-output and it should solve your problems. https://dipper.audio. Hi Devin, thank you for Black Hole! Great news about your new app, Dipper, I gave it a try already. Why it needs access to System Audio is perfectly clear, - but what does it need Screen Recording access for? — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub, or unsubscribe. You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID: @.***>

[a-tokarev]

Thank you for the explaination.

Maybe I should add a better explanation on the Dipper onboarding.

That would have been very helpful, as it would have answered my security-related question before it was even asked.

[gchilds]

Is that ScreenCaptureKit? Last time I checked (early Monterey) you had to capture video in order to capture audio. Is that not the case anymore?

On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 at 6:49 pm Devin Roth @.***> wrote:

It’s using screen capture to capture audio. The video portion is ignored. That eliminates the need to set a virtual audio devices as the output and thus simplifies everything.

Maybe I should add a better explanation on the Dipper onboarding.

Devin On Dec 30, 2023 at 6:12 AM -0800, a-tokarev @.***>, wrote:

Good news. I built an app called Dipper that eliminates the need for an aggregate / multi-output and it should solve your problems. https://dipper.audio. Hi Devin, thank you for Black Hole! Great news about your new app, Dipper, I gave it a try already. Why it needs access to System Audio is perfectly clear, - but what does it need Screen Recording access for? — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub, or unsubscribe. You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID: @.***>

— Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/ExistentialAudio/BlackHole/issues/758#issuecomment-1872573234, or unsubscribe https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AAQLZLISFWPVAJ2XJ2FEYEDYMBH2PAVCNFSM6AAAAABAZ7KQFKVHI2DSMVQWIX3LMV43OSLTON2WKQ3PNVWWK3TUHMYTQNZSGU3TGMRTGQ . You are receiving this because you commented.Message ID: @.***>

[tech1media]

Does the multi-output work as expected without BlackHole?

In my case yes.

[daslicht]

When I select Blackhole as input for Quicktime I get audio when recording 'audio'. But I dont get any audio when I record a screen recording.

[devinroth]

Odd. I’ll test. I wonder if Quicktime changed stuff.

Devin On Feb 2, 2024 at 2:44 AM -0800, Marc Wensauer @.***>, wrote:

When I select Blackhole as input for Quicktime I get audio when recording 'audioi'. But I dont get any audio when I record a screen recording. — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub, or unsubscribe. You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID: @.***>

[daslicht]

llook like it is wokring now for me , i enabled drift on the blackhole output of the multi out

[carlosbaraza]

Multi-Output Audio with my Airpods is not working. It seems to be an Apple bug indeed. Has it been discussed using ScreenCaptureKit as a potential common scenario of getting System Audio into the blackhole?

[carlosbaraza]

Multi-Output Audio with my Airpods is not working. It seems to be an Apple bug indeed. Has it been discussed using ScreenCaptureKit as a potential common scenario of getting System Audio into the blackhole?

I have updated to OSX 14.5, and it seems like the Multi-Ouput Devices with Airpods and BlackHole work as expected. It does some weird change of volume, but it works.

[c0bra]

Having this issue currently on OSX 14.5 on multiple devices. Was there anything specific any of you did to correct it, @carlosbaraza @daslicht?

[daslicht]

Having this issue currently on OSX 14.5 on multiple devices. Was there anything specific any of you did to correct it, @carlosbaraza @daslicht?

played with the drift parameter as I did?

[c0bra]

Having this issue currently on OSX 14.5 on multiple devices. Was there anything specific any of you did to correct it, @carlosbaraza @daslicht?

played with the drift parameter as I did?

Yea, toggling drift on either output doesn't seem to make a difference with any combination.