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FAlthausen / Vollkorn-Typeface

»Vollkorn« is the free and healthy typeface for bread and butter use.
http://vollkorn-typeface.com/
SIL Open Font License 1.1
179 stars 9 forks source link

thinner narrow-no-break-space #27

Open maybegeek opened 5 years ago

maybegeek commented 5 years ago

Hi, (und schönen guten Tag)

first thanks for your great typographic work, which enhances so many documents!

The narrow no-break space bugs me a bit, so I looked around and think it should be thinner. In the Regular we have the following widths:

name code html (dec.) width
thinspace U+2009   100
space U+0020   200
no-break space U+00A0   200
narrow no-break space U+202F   200

Perhaps the name itself suggests already less width for the narrow one.

For use in S. 12, d. h.or z. B. (depending on your Software or writing the entity by hand) I would appreciate a thinner narrow no-break space, around the width of the thinspace / equal the width of the thinspace.

Thanks!

cat-mint commented 5 years ago

hi there,

regarding the width of the narrow no-break space I also would suggest to decrease the width.

The Unicode Standard, Version 12.1, shows in the Code Chart for General Punctuation the following information:

https://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U2000.pdf

on page 3

on page 4:

Thanks @FAlthausen for this great font,

FAlthausen commented 5 years ago

Dear Christoph Pfeiffer and @cat-mint, the width of NARROW NO-BREAK SPACE U+202F is a never ending story. I have learned that it theoretically should be narrower but practically everybody adapts its width to SPACE U+2020. This is caused by a bug (or intended and forced over alignment) in an early InDesign version.

Here are to (old and German) sources: http://www.hilfdirselbst.ch/foren/Indesign_CS1_Trennungen_von_Firmen_und_Eigennamen_P303284.html#303284 (http://www.hilfdirselbst.ch/foren/Aller_-%3E_gesch%FCtztes_Leerzeichen_CS3_-_CS5_P459067.html)

I’d love to learn news about that issue! Or does anybody know a statistic about how many font use which solution? Thanks! Friedrich

maybegeek commented 5 years ago

Hi Friedrich,

thanks for your comment on this.

Or does anybody know a statistic about how many font use which solution?

As much as I love statistical visualization -- and thought on doing exactly that -- in my opinion, this should not be the ground for decision making.

This is caused by a bug (or intended and forced over alignment) in an early InDesign version.

And as problematic as this was in the past, it was not the right way to handle this by InDesign.

I’d love to learn news about that issue!

I think it would be best to adhere to standards, rather than working around them. My main argument would be:

If I want to typeset a smaller space (maybe a thinspace) and do not want to let that break at line end, the standard approach would be to use a narrow no-break space. Think of above mentioned abbreviations (z. B. or d. h.) or in academic typesetting (S. 12), we would not want the S. to remain alone on the line end. And, we would not want a normal space but the narrower one.

Example: A .csl template (for citations and bibliography) would allow to name a code entity between page name (S.) and the actual pages (example 12). As I can not decrease the size of my space by hand I would want to use the correct narrow no-break space in the template.

thanks, Christoph

FAlthausen commented 5 years ago

Dear Christoph, I love it that you want to make proper typography — even with my Vollkorn!

Unfortunately free and public typefaces like Vollkorn are not self-sufficient from its use cases and colleague fonts. So I could not just keep the standard in mind but additional need to respect those who want to switch typefaces e. g. in a document design process.

Would you mind to design a page of sample text with some „z. B., d. h., S. 12“ (using U+202F) set in a handful of typeface you like or would use instead of Vollkorn? This practical example would be much more convincing for me than the theoretical standard!

A standard that no one (?) knows or respects has no value — while what all people (?) do becomes a de facto standard …

Thanks and regards, Friedrich

maybegeek commented 5 years ago

Dear Friedrich,

A standard that no one (?) knows or respects has no value — while what all people (?) do becomes a de facto standard …

Very well, so your decision matters in turning the tide : )

(from above)

Or does anybody know a statistic about how many font use which solution?

fc-list ':charset=202F' for googlefonts gives me:

abyssinica
abyssinicasil
adobeblank
alef
alefhebrew
amiri
ancient-scripts
andika
bowlbyonesc
cardo
carme
caudex
cormorant
cormorantgaramond
cormorantinfant
cormorantsc
cormorantunicase
cormorantupright
crimsontext
dejavu
fanwoodtext
freefont
harmattan
istokweb
jomolhari
lato
lindenhill
miltonian
miltoniantattoo
newscycle
noto
notosans
notoserif
pecita
petrona
redacted
redactedscript
scheherazade
sortsmillgoudy
sourcesanspro
tibetan-machine
vollkorn
vollkornsc

update, metrics for spaces:

fullname em thinspace space nbsp nnbsp nnbsp < space
Arimo Bold 2048 410 569 569 410 True
Arimo Bold Italic 2048 410 569 569 410 True
Arimo Italic 2048 410 569 569 410 True
Arimo Regular 2048 410 569 569 410 True
Tinos Bold 2048 410 512 512 410 True
Tinos Bold Italic 2048 410 512 512 410 True
Tinos Italic 2048 410 512 512 410 True
Tinos Regular 2048 410 512 512 410 True
Abyssinica SIL 2048 653 922 600 493 True
Adobe Blank 1000 0 0 0 0 False
Alef Bold 2048 413 570 570 413 True
Alef Regular 2048 413 580 580 411 True
Alef Bold 2048 413 570 600 413 True
Alef Regular 2048 413 580 600 411 True
Amiri Bold 2048 410 600 600 683 False
Amiri Bold Italic 2048 410 600 600 683 False
Amiri Italic 2048 410 600 600 683 False
Amiri Regular 2048 410 600 600 683 False
Andika Regular 2048 410 550 550 410 True
Bowlby One SC Regular 2048 448 616 616 448 True
Cardo Bold 2048 410 550 550 410 True
Cardo Italic 2048 410 575 575 410 True
Cardo 2048 410 550 550 410 True
Carme Regular 2048 389 471 471 389 True
Caudex Bold 2048 204 550 550 512 True
Caudex Bold Italic 2048 204 550 550 512 True
Caudex Italic 2048 204 550 550 512 True
Caudex 2048 204 550 550 512 True
Cormorant Bold 1000 200 234 234 200 True
Cormorant Bold Italic 1000 200 234 234 200 True
Cormorant Italic 1000 200 234 234 200 True
Cormorant Light 1000 200 234 234 200 True
Cormorant Light Italic 1000 200 234 234 200 True
Cormorant Medium 1000 200 234 234 200 True
Cormorant Medium Italic 1000 200 234 234 200 True
Cormorant Regular 1000 200 234 234 200 True
Cormorant SemiBold 1000 200 234 234 200 True
Cormorant SemiBold Italic 1000 200 234 234 200 True
Cormorant Garamond Bold 1000 200 234 234 200 True
Cormorant Garamond Bold Italic 1000 200 234 234 200 True
Cormorant Garamond Italic 1000 200 234 234 200 True
Cormorant Garamond Light 1000 200 234 234 200 True
Cormorant Garamond Light Italic 1000 200 234 234 200 True
Cormorant Garamond Medium 1000 200 234 234 200 True
Cormorant Garamond Medium Italic 1000 200 234 234 200 True
Cormorant Garamond Regular 1000 200 234 234 200 True
Cormorant Garamond SemiBold 1000 200 234 234 200 True
Cormorant Garamond SemiBold Italic 1000 200 234 234 200 True
Cormorant Infant Bold 1000 200 234 234 200 True
Cormorant Infant Bold Italic 1000 200 234 234 200 True
Cormorant Infant Italic 1000 200 234 234 200 True
Cormorant Infant Light 1000 200 234 234 200 True
Cormorant Infant Light Italic 1000 200 234 234 200 True
Cormorant Infant Medium 1000 200 234 234 200 True
Cormorant Infant Medium Italic 1000 200 234 234 200 True
Cormorant Infant Regular 1000 200 234 234 200 True
Cormorant Infant SemiBold 1000 200 234 234 200 True
Cormorant Infant SemiBold Italic 1000 200 234 234 200 True
Cormorant SC Bold 1000 200 234 234 200 True
Cormorant SC Light 1000 200 234 234 200 True
Cormorant SC Medium 1000 200 234 234 200 True
Cormorant SC Regular 1000 200 234 234 200 True
Cormorant SC SemiBold 1000 200 234 234 200 True
Cormorant Unicase Bold 1000 200 234 234 200 True
Cormorant Unicase Light 1000 200 234 234 200 True
Cormorant Unicase Medium 1000 200 234 234 200 True
Cormorant Unicase Regular 1000 200 234 234 200 True
Cormorant Unicase SemiBold 1000 200 234 234 200 True
Cormorant Upright Bold 1000 200 234 234 200 True
Cormorant Upright Light 1000 200 234 234 200 True
Cormorant Upright Medium 1000 200 234 234 200 True
Cormorant Upright Regular 1000 200 234 234 200 True
Cormorant Upright SemiBold 1000 200 234 234 200 True
Crimson Text Regular 1024 166 229 162 166 True
Fanwood Text Italic 4096 679 819 819 679 True
Fanwood Text 4096 679 819 819 679 True
Harmattan Regular 2048 329 453 453 329 True
Istok Web Bold 2048 410 700 700 410 True
Istok Web Bold Italic 2048 411 682 682 411 True
Istok Web Italic 2048 411 682 682 411 True
Istok Web Regular 2048 410 682 682 410 True
Jomolhari 1024 204 300 300 256 True
Lato Black 2000 250 475 475 500 False
Lato Black Italic 2000 230 425 425 460 False
Lato Bold 2000 250 486 486 500 False
Lato Bold Italic 2000 230 438 438 460 False
Lato ExtraBold 2000 250 462 462 500 False
Lato ExtraBold Italic 2000 230 410 410 460 False
Lato ExtraLight 2000 250 559 559 500 True
Lato ExtraLight Italic 2000 230 523 523 460 True
Lato Italic 2000 230 468 468 460 True
Lato Light 2000 250 543 543 500 True
Lato Light Italic 2000 230 504 504 460 True
Lato Medium 2000 250 505 505 500 True
Lato Medium Italic 2000 230 460 460 460 False
Lato Regular 2000 250 512 512 500 True
Lato SemiBold 2000 250 498 498 500 False
Lato SemiBold Italic 2000 230 452 452 460 False
Lato Thin 2000 250 570 570 500 True
Lato Thin Italic 2000 230 536 536 460 True
Linden Hill Italic 4096 679 757 757 679 True
Linden Hill Regular 4096 679 757 757 679 True
Miltonian 1000 183 240 240 183 True
Miltonian Tattoo 1000 183 240 240 183 True
Noto Sans Bold 2048 410 532 532 410 True
Noto Sans Bold Italic 2048 410 532 532 410 True
Noto Sans Italic 2048 410 532 532 410 True
Noto Sans 2048 410 532 532 410 True
Noto Serif Bold 2048 410 532 532 410 True
Noto Serif Bold Italic 2048 410 532 532 410 True
Noto Serif Italic 2048 410 532 532 410 True
Noto Serif 2048 410 532 532 410 True
OFL Sorts Mill Goudy TT Italic 1000 166 213 213 166 True
OFL Sorts Mill Goudy TT 1000 166 213 213 166 True
Pecita 1000 240 480 480 360 True
Petrona Regular 1000 171 221 221 171 True
Redacted Regular 2048 307 894 894 307 True
Redacted Script Bold 2048 399 724 724 399 True
Redacted Script Regular 2048 366 724 724 366 True
Scheherazade Bold 2048 200 512 465 200 True
Scheherazade 2048 200 512 512 200 True
Sorts Mill Goudy Italic 1000 166 213 213 166 True
Sorts Mill Goudy Regular 1000 166 213 213 166 True
Vollkorn Italic 1000 100 180 180 180 False
Vollkorn Italic 1000 100 180 180 180 False
Vollkorn Italic 1000 100 180 180 180 False
Vollkorn Italic 1000 100 180 180 180 False
Vollkorn Italic 1000 100 180 180 180 False
Vollkorn Italic 1000 100 180 180 180 False
Vollkorn Roman 1000 100 200 200 200 False
Vollkorn Roman 1000 100 200 200 200 False
Vollkorn Roman 1000 100 200 200 200 False
Vollkorn Roman 1000 100 200 200 200 False
Vollkorn Roman 1000 100 200 200 200 False
Vollkorn Roman 1000 100 200 200 200 False
Vollkorn SC Black 1000 100 200 200 200 False
Vollkorn SC Bold 1000 100 200 200 200 False
Vollkorn SC Regular 1000 100 200 200 200 False
Vollkorn SC SemiBold 1000 100 200 200 200 False
Abyssinica SIL 2048 653 922 600 493 True
Symbola 2048 256 512 512 256 True
DejaVuMathTeXGyre-Regular 1000 200 317 317 200 True
DejaVu Sans Bold 2048 409 713 713 409 True
DejaVu Sans Bold Oblique 2048 409 713 713 409 True
DejaVu Sans ExtraLight 2048 409 651 651 409 True
DejaVu Sans Oblique 2048 409 651 651 409 True
DejaVu Sans 2048 409 651 651 409 True
DejaVu Sans Condensed Bold 2048 368 641 641 368 True
DejaVu Sans Condensed Bold Oblique 2048 368 641 641 368 True
DejaVu Sans Condensed Oblique 2048 368 585 585 368 True
DejaVu Sans Condensed 2048 368 585 585 368 True
DejaVu Sans Mono Bold 2048 1233 1233 1233 1233 False
DejaVu Sans Mono Bold Oblique 2048 1233 1233 1233 1233 False
DejaVu Sans Mono Oblique 2048 1233 1233 1233 1233 False
DejaVu Sans Mono 2048 1233 1233 1233 1233 False
DejaVu Serif Bold 2048 409 713 713 409 True
DejaVu Serif Bold Italic 2048 409 713 713 409 True
DejaVu Serif Italic 2048 409 651 651 409 True
DejaVu Serif 2048 409 651 651 409 True
DejaVu Serif Condensed Bold 2048 368 641 641 368 True
DejaVu Serif Condensed Bold Italic 2048 368 641 641 368 True
DejaVu Serif Condensed Italic 2048 368 585 585 368 True
DejaVu Serif Condensed 2048 368 585 585 368 True
FreeMono 1000 600 600 600 600 False
FreeMono Bold 1000 600 600 600 600 False
FreeMono Bold Oblique 1000 600 600 600 600 False
FreeMono Oblique 1000 600 600 600 600 False
FreeSans 1000 167 250 278 167 True
FreeSans Bold 1000 167 278 278 167 True
FreeSans Oblique 1000 167 278 278 167 True
FreeSerif 1000 166 250 250 250 False
FreeSerif Bold 1000 166 250 250 166 True
FreeSerif Italic 1000 166 250 250 166 True
Noto Sans Bold 1000 200 260 260 200 True
Noto Sans Bold Italic 1000 200 260 260 200 True
Noto Sans Italic 1000 200 260 260 200 True
Noto Sans Regular 1000 200 260 260 200 True
Noto Sans Display Bold 1000 188 244 244 375 False
Noto Sans Display Bold Italic 1000 190 247 247 261 False
Noto Sans Display Italic 1000 190 247 247 190 True
Noto Sans Display Regular 1000 188 244 244 188 True
Noto Sans Mono Bold 1000 600 600 600 600 False
Noto Sans Mono Regular 1000 600 600 600 600 False
Noto Serif Bold 1000 200 260 260 200 True
Noto Serif Bold Italic 1000 200 260 260 200 True
Noto Serif Italic 1000 200 260 260 200 True
Noto Serif Regular 1000 200 260 260 200 True
Noto Serif Display Bold 1000 200 225 225 200 True
Noto Serif Display Bold Italic 1000 200 250 250 200 True
Noto Serif Display Italic 1000 200 250 250 200 True
Noto Serif Display Regular 1000 200 225 225 200 True

So I could not just keep the standard in mind but additional need to respect those who want to switch typefaces e. g. in a document design process.

And because of that, It is crucial to adhere to standards, in a software/vendor-agnostic approach. So I can switch from one font to another without loosing the orthographically correct writing (z. B., non-breaking and with smaller width).

Would you mind to design a page of sample text with some „z. B., d. h., S. 12“ (using U+202F) set in a handful of typeface you like or would use instead of Vollkorn? This practical example would be much more convincing for me than the theoretical standard!

surely different positions regarding standards : )

typefaces in regular without any preferences showing spaces. There are other typefaces which show a different use of the nnbsp, to make my point, I did not include them : )

showing different spaces in context

Unfortunately free and public typefaces like Vollkorn are not self-sufficient from its use cases and colleague fonts.

The Noto typeface as a SIL licensed google project uses:

NotoSans & NotoSerif

name code html (dec.) width
thinspace U+2009 &#8201; 410
space U+0020 &#32; 532
no-break space U+00A0 &#160; 532
narrow no-break space U+202F &#8239; 410

all the best, Christoph

FAlthausen commented 5 years ago

OK, I think you got me. Apparently there are „some“ fonts who have a narrow NNBS. So I will no longer argue with a de facto standard. But your point for supporting the actual unicode standard applies here I think. (Thanks for the PDF etc.)

Finally that means that I will change the 202F (likely to 100) in the next version. (But please be patient – I have no current time schedule for this update …)

Best regards, Friedrich

maybegeek commented 5 years ago

Dear Friedrich,

thank you for your decision! I'll let this issue open though ... and to your choosing to close when a new version will get released.

all the best, Christoph

frankrolf commented 3 years ago

In case this interests anyone – here is some investigation concerning the width of different space characters: https://github.com/adobe-fonts/source-serif-pro/issues/81