the community, discord, and changes that should probably be made for the best of the entire community.... again

[srgantmoomoo]

I was told this belongs here...

Hello, so I'm apart of a minecraft anarchy community, in specific the devs side of it, and I hope someone gives this post a good read because this is just getting a tiny bit too far. Obviously you reading this, you probably already have a notion of me, that I develop "hacks" or "cheats" and shouldn't even be given support here, but I'm gonna try and maybe change your mind.

First off I was banned in the fabric discord for "repeatedly insulting" someone, or something along those lines, except in reality, I insulted someone once after being repeatedly insulted myself by basically everyone in that discord.

My argument that I was being flamed for was that Utility Mods should be supported by the community, and they are not the same as hacking/cheating. Something like kami-blue, a utility mod for an anarchy server, is completely different than something like sigma, a blatant cheat to offer an unfair advantage.

I argue this because I develop Utility Mods myself, and there's a host of us that do, for an even larger anarchy community, so I want you to understand the frustration in my side of dev community while reading this, and hopefully I can convince you to make some changes... anyways....

Here are a few points I was given as to why I am wrong and a few of my rebuttals.

1. "they are the same thing" - they're not, kami blue is a utility mod that specifically targets a modding server (2b2t) where it is allowed, and accepted. They develop utilities that wouldn't even be of use to a cheater looking for an advantage against honest player, some of these utilities include boat fly, auto crystal, chat bot, and baritone.... no cheater who uses a cheat or hacked client like sigma for instance, would ever find use for that. The same way no anarchy player would ever find a use for something like sigma on an anarchy server, kami-blue and sigma are two completely different clients targeted and developed for two different genres of servers and use cases. Utility Mods, and cheats are two completely different things, developed for two completely different reasons, styles of play, servers, and players.
2. "cheaters can use utility mods for unfair advantages, so they shouldn't be allowed" - I hope most people understand how outrageous this argument is... "people can use cars as weapons, cars should be banned", "people can use medication pills to kill themselves, medication should be banned", or I could even say "fabric api can be used to create cheats, it should be banned". Yea this argument is quite obviously redundant. And on top of that, most cheaters in their right mind, looking to gain an advantage on honest servers, would not use a Utility Mod targeted for anarchy servers, they would be shooting themselves in the foot doing that.
3. "its against tos" - This one is the one I would be most understanding of... but it's still quite out there. It has been proven over and over again now that discord is ok with these utility mods, its the hack clients that are developed specifically for unfair advantages that discord is not ok with. Here are some Utility Mods or anarchy related servers that are doing just fine with discord, Kami-blue, 6200 members, has been around forever. Impact, a lot... I can't even tell tbh, 8k online, 3k donator roles rn. SalC1 has almost 600k subscribers and his entire channel is dedicated to this community, oh and he's a discord partner. My point is, this shouldn't be a worry.
4. "the mods don't agree with u" - LOL, this is an actual argument I got!.... obviously the mods are people too, with their own opinions and biases, they're not an all seeing eye, just cause the discord mods disagree with me doesn't mean I'm wrong about this.

I also brought this up with a group of developers in a discord we have together, basically a bunch of anarchy devs in one discord, and they all agree, the anarchy dev community has been unfairly unsupported by the rest of the mod community for way too long. A few of them actually joined the discord to try and talk about the topic that I was banned for and once again were faced with an angry mob, and one mod in specific keeps shutting down channels to stop them from arguing, like how is suppressing the argument gonna resolve it?

One of the dev's, A2H, in our community brought up a good point too, currently the biggest anarchy server 2b2t is on version 1.12.2, but recently it has become clear that it will finally update either to 1.16, or 1.17 when it's ready. The thing is, almost every developer in our community who has already started developing 1.16 clients is using fabric, once 2b2t does update, there is sure to be a surge in players coming from this side of the community, and you are going to have to face this problem eventually, it is best to define the line between Utility Mod and cheat client as soon as possible rather than constantly shutting out this side of the community, because its a big fucking community. Defining the line between cheat and Utility Mod, and doing something like trying to create a system where these Utility Mods actually couldn't be used on other servers that aren't anarchy ones would, imo, be a pretty good idea.

Also I just want to point out a couple of these mods conversations here's a few ss's of my conversation, and another dev's with a couple mods... they seems to think they're opinion is a fact and they knows best because they have a mod role in a discord... anyways this may have been out of line but you have to understand why this makes me and so many other developers mad, spending time developing in depth intricate mods just to be shut out by one side of the community.

Baritone is a great example, the google maps of minecraft, it's an incredible piece of software... but according to one side of the modding community, it's a hack thrown together in 4 minutes by brainless cheaters.

In the end, I love fabric, it's an incredible upgrade from forge, and so does the rest of the anarchy dev community, as proven by the basically no utility mods developed for forge in the latest version of minecraft, and its incredible shift to fabric. I hope you understand the frustration on this side of the dev community, and maybe understand the difference between cheat and mod here. Thank you for reading, sorry if I'm a bother to anyone.

[liu7d7]

i, personally, think this is a GREAT idea

[YTG1234]

"cheaters can use utility mods for unfair advantages, so they shouldn't be allowed" - I hope most people understand how outrageous this argument is...

For me, it's just if Discord ToS allows it - I don't care. Your argument seems to be that ToS does allow it, although I'm not sure what to believe.

The amount of people that pretend to use a utility mod for an anarchy server while actually using it to cheat on a "normal" server (which from your argument it seems that doing so does not make sense, however people are still doing it so...) is pretty big, and can't be ignored. I agree with you on the potential use, however, we see actual cases.

[OroArmor]

Baritone is a great example, the google maps of minecraft, it's an incredible piece of software... but according to one side of the modding community, it's a hack thrown together in 4 minutes by brainless cheaters.

Yes. Baritone is a collection of cheats based on 99% of server rules and goes against minecrafts EULA. The fact that you are refuting this doesn't help your case

[srgantmoomoo]

"cheaters can use utility mods for unfair advantages, so they shouldn't be allowed" - I hope most people understand how outrageous this argument is...

For me, it's just if Discord ToS allows it - I don't care. Your argument seems to be that ToS does allow it, although I'm not sure what to believe.

The amount of people that pretend to use a utility mod for an anarchy server while actually using it to cheat on a "normal" server (which from your argument it seems that doing so does not make sense, however people are still doing it so...) is pretty big, and can't be ignored. I agree with you on the potential use, however, we see actual cases.

In reality... the amount of people that use something like kami-blue to cheat on honest servers is minuscule, although it is a thing, usually from people who don't know about the community too much. But once again, what is this argument? People use fabric to cheat on servers, should you guys stop developing fabric? And, there are ways of negating this, "make a global database of anarchy servers and prevent them from working on non anarchy servers" - A2H.

[YTG1234]

Of course Baritone is an incredibly complicated piece of software and certainly hasn't been made in 4 minutes - it's still a cheat though. Most servers consider it so. In contrast to many "utility mods", Baritone is useful both on anarchy servers and on servers that don't allow it.

[oragejuice]

Id also like to add, the anarchy development community in general despises people who cheat on servers where it's not allowed and in light of discords ToS and from what we understand to be Fabrics guidelines a couple ideas have been thrown around that may allow all parties to be happy such as a client simply not allowed you to login to a public "blacklist" of servers that using such a mod would jptbot be allowed on. I hope both of our communities can come to an comprise. Thank you for your understanding

[Devan-Kerman]

whether or not a specific hacked client is designed to/is/can be used on a server is irrelevant. By tolerating discussion or showcases of certain hacks you unintentionally legitimize the use of them on normal servers.

for all intents and purposes, they are cheat mods, I don't care if they're "technically not cheat mods", because for almost every practical application, they are

[srgantmoomoo]

Baritone is a great example, the google maps of minecraft, it's an incredible piece of software... but according to one side of the modding community, it's a hack thrown together in 4 minutes by brainless cheaters.

Yes. Baritone is a collection of cheats based on 99% of server rules and goes against minecrafts EULA. The fact that you are refuting this doesn't help your case

Can I ask how it's against EULA, im not denying in any way, more so just curious. Couldn't all modding be stretched to this same conclusion? Certainly most cheat clients can judging by how they are made through edited and redistributed deobf minecraft code, but maybe my example here wasn't too great, I was really just using baritone as a point that it isn't thrown together in 4 minutes by brainless cheaters as implied by people in the fabric discord. Most Utility Mods go along the same guidelines that all other mods do.

[srgantmoomoo]

Of course Baritone is an incredibly complicated piece of software and certainly hasn't been made in 4 minutes - it's still a cheat though. Most servers consider it so. In contrast to many "utility mods", Baritone is useful both on anarchy servers and on servers that don't allow it.

yes, that is true, baritone may not have been the best example, it CAN be used for advantages on other servers, but it wasn't developed too, just like fabric isn't developed for cheaters, but it certainly CAN be and is used by them.

[modmuss50]

Its quite clearly against the discord ToS, recentally Discord have had a bit of a crack down on servers that create these cheats.

This A) Reinforces the idea that we should prevent all discussion about them and keep to the discord TOS. B) Explains why there may have been an influx of users joining asking about hacked clients.

The whole fabric toolchain is open soruce and under a license where people can use it to make these cheats. This is something I dont support and was clearly never supposed to be one of the intended uses of fabric.

Cheats have ruined a number of multiplayer games that I have played and its not something I wish upon anyone. The only people that are gaining anything out of it are the people who are extoring money of the people stupid enough to pay for them.

There is no way I am going to be on a discord server or part of a community that allows and promotes the use and creation of cheating/hacking software.