Open DianeKEPR opened 3 years ago
It looks like we can craft these as wine products with certain observable (vision, taste) qualities on the one hand, and a processing story that leads to such qualities on the other. Ideally we have minimalist definitions that say "X wine style": "A wine style which Y" so that the logical axiomatization of the english definition looks like it might be enough for a computer to go on. But of course the challenge is to figure out what kind of minimal relations will do the trick to differentiate each of the wine styles logically, or if that is even possible. At any rate, lets see how much of the descriptive/definitional content can be moved out to a comment field (rdfs:comment).
Ideally each definition has an authoritative "definition source" document to back it up somewhere on the net, if you have that handy.
I'm thinking we could set up a google sheet to work on each term's label, definition, etc. fields?
The google sheet sounds good. A lot is Wikipedia, but as you know the content depends on various content contributors, so I will try to look up the other web sites that were needed to fill in the information to make each definition more consistent.
Now enjoying a glass of 2020 Kim Crawford Illuminate Sauvignon Blanc from the Marlborough region of New Zealand. It is a full vinified wine processed with a dual spinning cone process to bring to 7% ABV. I am at risk of becoming a lowered alcohol wine snob. hahaha!
Diane
On Jun 19, 2021, at 3:36 PM, Damion Dooley @.***> wrote:
It looks like we can craft these as wine products with certain observable (vision, taste) qualities on the one hand, and a processing story that leads to such qualities on the other. Ideally we have minimalist definitions that say "X wine style": "A wine style which Y" so that the logical axiomatization of the english definition looks like it might be enough for a computer to go on. But of course the challenge is to figure out what kind of minimal relations will do the trick to differentiate each of the wine styles logically, or if that is even possible. At any rate, lets see how much of the descriptive/definitional content can be moved out to a comment field (rdfs:comment).
Ideally each definition has an authoritative "definition source" document to back it up somewhere on the net, if you have that handy.
I'm thinking we could set up a google sheet to work on each term's label, definition, etc. fields?
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I think it best to have someone else document citations of authoritative sources. Mine were mostly Wikipedia, but where differing levels, conflicts, and detail existed between the various definitions, I searched other sources that may or may not be considered authoritative. This can serve as an independent cross-check.
I did use observations of documented instances of various wines for commercial sale, to test various assertions made in the definitions. I will document this wine instance content to contribute. Thinking these test cases of wine instance data can be loaded to the ontology. The scope of this FoodOn effort is to not attempt to load all instances of wine. No way to gather all this information and keep it updated.
This set of wine instances that demonstrate unique combinations of values, can challenge and support various subclasses and properties in the structure of the wine section of the ontology. This empirical set of instances will help minimize biases and differences of opinions in the ontology structure, and could be an interesting fun set of wine information. FoodOn could decide to delete this wine instance data if and when appropriate.
Diane
On Jun 19, 2021, at 9:08 PM, Diane @.***> wrote:
The google sheet sounds good. A lot is Wikipedia, but as you know the content depends on various content contributors, so I will try to look up the other web sites that were needed to fill in the information to make each definition more consistent.
Now enjoying a glass of 2020 Kim Crawford Illuminate Sauvignon Blanc from the Marlborough region of New Zealand. It is a full vinified wine processed with a dual spinning cone process to bring to 7% ABV. I am at risk of becoming a lowered alcohol wine snob. hahaha!
Diane
On Jun 19, 2021, at 3:36 PM, Damion Dooley @.***> wrote:
It looks like we can craft these as wine products with certain observable (vision, taste) qualities on the one hand, and a processing story that leads to such qualities on the other. Ideally we have minimalist definitions that say "X wine style": "A wine style which Y" so that the logical axiomatization of the english definition looks like it might be enough for a computer to go on. But of course the challenge is to figure out what kind of minimal relations will do the trick to differentiate each of the wine styles logically, or if that is even possible. At any rate, lets see how much of the descriptive/definitional content can be moved out to a comment field (rdfs:comment).
Ideally each definition has an authoritative "definition source" document to back it up somewhere on the net, if you have that handy.
I'm thinking we could set up a google sheet to work on each term's label, definition, etc. fields?
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Some sources for the concept Wine Style:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_wine All common styles of wine – red, rosé, white (dry, semi-sweet and sweet), sparkling and fortified – are produced in France.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_wine Orange wine, also known as skin-contact white wine, skin-fermented white wine, or amber wine,[1] is a type of wine made from white wine grapes where the grape skins are not removed, as in typical white wine production, and stay in contact with the juice for days or even months Wine styles (same wikipedia link) Red wine is made with red grapes. After the red grapes are crushed, their skins stay in contact for a period of 1 week to 1 month, and the wine gets a red or deep red color. Rosé, at least when rosé wine is the primary product, is produced with the skin contact method, using red grapes. After the grapes are crushed, their skins only stay in contact a few hours before pressing, but in that short period they give the wine the characteristic light pink hue. White wine is made either with red or white grapes. The grapes are pressed and their skins are removed immediately. Because the grape skins do not "participate" in the fermentation, their color does not matter and the wine acquires a neutral, green to slightly yellow hue. Orange wine is made with white grapes. After they are crushed, their skins stay in contact for 1 month to 6 months, and the wine acquires an amber, orange color.
Logic from various sources: if fortified wine is the addition of alcohol from a process not from the natural fermentation process, then lowered alcohol wine is similar but with an intentional physical process outside of natural fermentation to lower the alcohol content partially or almost (by varying country legal standards) to an alcohol percent that can be defined as non-alcoholic wine.
https://www.decanter.com/decanter-best/top-20-low-alcohol-wines-75005/ The real challenge of making low- and no-alcohol wine is about how to remove the alcohol from a fermented juice (which can typically be 13%-14% alcohol by volume) without impairing mouthfeel, balance, typicity and quality. Some of the wines below have been deliberately made as lower-alcohol options:
https://www.liquor.com/best-non-alcoholic-wines-5088704 Thierry Cowez, oenologist and dealcoholized winemaker for MIS Services in Belgium According to Cowez, true nonalcoholic / dealcoholized wine is produced from wine that has been fermented with yeasts and has undergone a vinification process, then goes through an additional process of having the alcohol removed. All other fruit-based products marketed as nonalcoholic wine are simply juice.
Reference for physical processes to lower the alcohol in wine is cited above. https://www.intechopen.com/books/advances-in-grape-and-wine-biotechnology/alcohol-reduction-by-physical-methods Non-alcoholic wine is a wine where the alcohol content is lowered to 0.5% alcohol or lower. Official percent alcohol to be classified as a non-alcoholic wine differs in various countries.
Proposed: discuss where in the ontology does Wine Style fit? -- what are the alternatives to discuss? Since Wine Style has meanings for the types of processing that a Grape undergoes to produce a type of wine, Recommend Wine Style be a subClass of: food treatment process The major subclasses of wine style: Red Wine White Wine Rose Wine Orange Wine Sparkling Wine : with a subClass: Champagne Fortified Wine Lowered Alcohol Wine: with a subClass of -- Non-Alcoholic Wine
Then the concept Wine, will have an association to a Wine Style
New proposed question for where Wine Style belongs in the ontology: The nature of the definition and ontology construct to focus the meaning as: the common characteristics (in theory a group of data properties and values) of the wine for each wine style. The processing for how to achieve each wine style is only a method to achieve the set of wine style characteristics, and is not the essence of the meaning.
Propose: add two Wine Styles: Dry Wine, Sweet Wine. This represents a broad characteristic of the sweetness of a Wine. The existing wine styles in the list are broad characterizations of the color/flavor, bubbles when opened, level of alcohol.
Observation: a Wine has one or more Wine Styles. Example: a Sparkling Sweet Red Wine. Wine instance "Roscato Rosso Dolce"
Question for discussion: How to best model Wine Style in the ontology?
I'm looking forward to diving into this! I have deadlines up to tomorrow morning, so can give it my full attention in the afternoon. @mateolan may also have things to add!
We need an actual conversation. Wine styles originate based on region, processing method, organoleptic characteristics, among others...I think it best not to haul off and just start making things without an informed discussion first. Shall we arrange for a video call sometime next week?
On Wed, Jul 7, 2021 at 7:34 AM Damion Dooley @.***> wrote:
I'm looking forward to diving into this! I have deadlines up to tomorrow morning, so can give it my full attention in the afternoon. @mateolan https://github.com/mateolan may also have things to add!
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Based on Matthew's comment, we do need an additional subClass to Wine Style of "Regional Wine Style". Regional Wine Style can hold the instances of Regional Wine Style rules/constraints to conform with the regional designation.
One instance is Champange. It can be a white sparkling wine or a rose sparkling wine (my first inclination was as a subclass of Sparkling wine, but that is not sufficient). Most common grape varieties used are: Chardonnay, Pinot Noir, and Pinot Meunier, and can be a blend of all three. Other permitted varieties are: Arbane, Petit Meslier, Pinot Blanc, and Pinot Gris. A "blanc de blancs" is made from 100% Chardonnay, and a "blanc de noirs" are made solely with the red grapes Pinot Noir, Pinot Meunier, or a mix of the two.
Other instances of Regional Wine Style to include: Bordeaux Burgundy White Burgundy Red Chateauneuf-du-Pape ----and many others ---- are the below just geography plus grape variety, or do we call as a Wine Style? (? how far to include combination of region and single grape varietal?) ----?is there a wine style that is named for a wine with a single varietal (ex. a Cabernet Sauvignon?) -- region and wine color? Chardonnay Californian Chardonnay Burgundy Chardonnay Oregon Pinot Noir Chilean Carmenere Northern Italy White Red Tuscan (is this restricted to Italy?) ---many more combinations here....
May be interesting to use the set of Wine issues to bring up thought provoking questions, information and proposals to bring into the hack-a-thon event. This content can be used as the input to many conversations and focused group decisions.
Thinking that Wine Style as impacted by Wine Region would not have every combination of Wine Region / Wine variety(cultivar). A regional wine style may only exist where there are rules for the grapes used and production techniques that are unique per the region. Then for this, California Chardonnay, Oregon Willamette Valley Pinot Noir, Chilean Carmenere would not be wine styles. Separate object properties of Grape Wine to variety/cultivar and to Geography (Wine Region, city, sub-country, country ...) But then still need where to place: Champange (always a sparking wine, can be white, red, or rose, can use Chardonnay, Pinot Noir, Pinot Mineure), Burgundy, Bordeaux, Chateauneuf-du-Pape
could be that Champange, Burgundy, Bordeaux, Chateauneuf-du-Pape would be associated with an Appellation. this is where the various rules for that appellation would exist. Geography, grape variety/cultivar, production method...
I think you mean Champagne…yes, definitively it is a sparkling wine linked to an Appellation, but Vladimir Poutine doesn’t mind this kind of “detail” …
This is to illustrate that the rules can be changed by regional politics…
Cheers !
De : Diane Alexander @.> Envoyé : lundi 16 août 2021 19:23 À : FoodOntology/foodon @.> Cc : Subscribed @.***> Objet : Re: [FoodOntology/foodon] Wine Style (#146)
could be that Champange, Burgundy, Bordeaux, Chateauneuf-du-Pape would be associated with an Appellation. this is where the various rules for that appellation would exist. Geography, grape variety/cultivar, production method...
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Hmmn, Diane, I like your thinking but I think I would argue that oaky California Chardonnay has actually become a wine style of its own (as a native Californian, I am NOT proud of this)--whether there are rules or not, a consumer has an expectation of what is in the bottle. From an ontology modeling point of view, I think that we should start with a list of classes of information/variables that may comprise any existing but also potentially new wine styles. For instance, I have friends in Napa who regularly "revive" once popular, but recently forgotten cultivars, grow them in alternate geographies with varied climates, soil types, and irrigation/trellising techniques, then of course process them in alternate ways once they are harvested. These may reflect old styles, but may also become new ones as these variables are mixed and matched. Of course, even harvesting timing and technique can play a role in wine style (e.g. ice wine). My point is that geography is sometimes involved, sometimes not--same with the other variables. Thus I believe that definitive guide to wine styles will necessarily include placeholders for (at least):
Did I miss anything? Best, ~Matthew PS: maweber-bi --you didn't sign, and your name isn't on the email from the list--so I don't know your name, but you make a good point.
On Mon, Aug 16, 2021 at 11:08 PM maweber-bia @.***> wrote:
I think you mean Champagne…yes, definitively it is a sparkling wine linked to an Appellation, but Vladimir Poutine doesn’t mind this kind of “detail” …
This is to illustrate that the rules can be changed by regional politics…
Cheers !
De : Diane Alexander @.> Envoyé : lundi 16 août 2021 19:23 À : FoodOntology/foodon @.> Cc : Subscribed @.***> Objet : Re: [FoodOntology/foodon] Wine Style (#146)
could be that Champange, Burgundy, Bordeaux, Chateauneuf-du-Pape would be associated with an Appellation. this is where the various rules for that appellation would exist. Geography, grape variety/cultivar, production method...
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In my view, to use the concept of Appellation to provide terms such as California Wine as an instance of AVA Taste and texture have many factors that are impacting. For the purpose of this model, proposing to use these sub-classes for Wine Style: (a specific Wine can have more than one Wine Style) the wine styles are grouping of characteristics such as color, bubbles, alcohol, sugar Wine Style: Red Wine White Wine Rose Wine Orange Wine Sparkling Wine Effervescent Wine Lowered Alcohol Wine Non-alcoholic Wine Fortified Wine Sweet Wine Ice Wine Dry Wine
Champange would not be a subClass of Sparkling Wine in this model, it would have the multi-factor rules as expressed by the rules of that Appellation (geography, type of grapes, bubble size) In this view; Wine is then a Fermented Beverage, .... but not necessarily an Alcoholic Beverage Without intervention, Wine is "Still Wine" and "Alcoholic" so this view does not create Wine Styles for these.
Orange Wines from Slovenia https://the-slovenia.com/gastronomy/wine/top-slovenian-wine-orange-wine/
Orange wines in Slovenia are mostly grown in the Primorska wine region. Orange is the “fourth” color of wine, however, don’t mistake the orange wine with rosé. Orange wines are also not made of oranges, which is a common misconception when it comes to this variety of top Slovenian wine.
Orange wines in Slovenia are actually made through a special process. Orange wines in Slovenia are a mixture of white wine made through a process that is intended for red wines. Interesting, right? In Slovenia, orange winemakers use this old process of producing white wines through the process for red wines, which has later spread across the world and gained much popularity among wine experts and wine enthusiasts alike.
The main feature of orange wine in Slovenia is maceration or prolonged contact with grape skins. Winemakers in Slovenia decide on different maceration times for the orange wine – depending on the type of grape as well as the wine production philosophy. Thus, maceration time for orange wines in Slovenia can be either short (a few days) or very long (up to half a year).
The term “orange wine” is relatively new in the wine world. When traveling around the world you might come across another name for orange wine, which is amber wine due to its color. The name orange wine was no made up in Slovenia, the name orange wine was given to this top Slovenian wine by an English sommelier.
Orange wines are mostly produced in the wine regions of Slovenia, Italy, and Croatia. Wine producers in the mentioned countries all use the old process, which results in orange wine. However, the origin of Orange wine is in Georgia. There the production of orange wines represents a long tradition. The orange wine production goes on in so-called kvevris – clay amphoras buried in soil, where the orange wine is kept in contact with grape skins for a long time after fermentation.
Amongst the best Slovenian orange sparkling wines we know Fedora, Keltis, Gordia and Štemberger.
This ticket will start with a definition of Wine Style, followed by a list of subClasses of Wine Style, and then followed by definitions of each Wine Style. Additional tickets will breakout more subClasses of a specific wine style with their own definitions. Wine Style: Wine style is a set of common characteristics for wines due to the nature of how the wine is processed. Wine style is determined by these types of factors: use of White Grapes or Red Grapes, duration of time the pressed grape is in contact with the grape skin, degree of dissolved carbon dioxide that creates bubbles when the wine is opened by the consumer, the addition or lowering the amount of alcohol in the wine from the use of a separate process to effect the percent alcohol in the wine. The major subclasses of wine style: Red Wine White Wine Rose Wine Orange Wine Sparkling Wine Fortified Wine Lowered Alcohol Wine with a subClass of -- Non-Alcoholic Wine
Red Wine is made from red grapes. After the red grapes are pressed, their skins stay in contact with the grape juice for a period of approximately 1 week to 1 month, and the wine gets a red to deep red purple from the pigments in the grape skin. Red wine generally contain several antioxidants. These include resveratol, catechin, epicatechin, and proathocyanins. However, the level of resveratrol in red wine is rather low, so if seeking certain health benefits of consuming resveratrol, then using as a dietary supplement would be more effective.
White Wine is made with either red or white grapes. The grapes are crushed and their skins are removed immediately. Because the grape skins do not stay in contact with the grape juice and do not participate in the fermentation process, the grape skin color is not a factor for producing white wine. The wine acquires a neutral green, yellow or light grey hue, and contains minimal tannins.
Rose Wine is made from red grapes. After the grapes are crushed, the grape skins stay in contact with the grape juice a short time up to a few hours before pressing, giving the wine a pink, salmon, copper to very light red color. This process is called maceration. In some rare cases, a rose wine is made from blending white wine with the addition of a level of red wine to produce the desired color. This method is prohibited for PDO wines in Europe, so not a common practice for quality wines. A notable exception that the rules of making Rose Champagne do allow the the addition of a small amount of red wine in the dosage process prior to fermentation, but the primary method is contact with the grape skin. Another process is the Saignee process where, in the making of a red wine in the maceration process, some of the juice is removed called "bleeding", this juice can be vinified as a rose wine. Although a common purpose is to use the grape juice that remains after bleeding, to continue vinifying to create a more concentrated red wine.
Orange Wine is made from white grapes where the grape skins are not removed, in contrast to where skins are quickly removed in white wine production. The white grape skins stay in contact with the juice for days or even months. This style of wine has an amber or orange color that the wine receives due to the color pigments contained in white grape skins.
Sparkling Wine is a wine with a significant level of dissolved carbon dioxide gas (CO2). The carbon dioxide content may be the result of natural secondary fermentation in a bottle, or in a large tank designed to withstand the pressures involved (Charmat process). Some cheaper sparkling wines are the result from injecting carbon dioxide gas into the wine. To make sparkling wine as a result of fermentation, a base wine is created with the first fermentation, then a certain amount of sugar is added that induces carbonation and reduces acidity. This mixture is processed with a secondary fermentation where the yeast consumes sugar and creates a by-product of alcohol and carbon dioxide. The resulting dead yeast is eventually removed. Fully sparkling wines have pressure from the CO2 gas of 5 to 6 atmospheres of pressure, but technically it is any wine over 3 atmospheres of pressure. Semi-sparkling wines are defined as having less than 3 atmospheres of pressure, most commonly between 1 and 2.5 atmospheres of pressure. Semi-sparkling wine is made with a similar process as fully sparkling wine, but little added sugar is introduced. The lesser the amount of sugar, the smaller the bubbles and pressures, resulting in an effervescent or fizzy effect.
Fortified wine to which a distilled spirit, usually brandy, has been added. There are several styles of fortified wine to include: port, sherry, marsala, commandaria, and the aromatized wine - Vermouth. When the additional alcohol is added to the wine before the fermentation process is complete, the added alcohol kills the yeast, stops further fermentation, and leaves residual sugar behind. The earlier in the fermentation process that the alcohol is added, the wine is sweeter and normally contains a higher percent of alcohol. If fermentation is allowed to run to completion, the resulting wine will be low in sugar and be considered as a dry wine. The original use of fortification was to preserve the wine, as casks of wine were prone to turn to vinegar during long sea voyages.
Lowered Alcohol Wine is a wine made with an additional process to remove a portion to most of the alcohol from the fermented juice. A lowered alcohol wine process takes a wine that is normally 12-14 percent alcohol to a range of 6-11% alcohol. A Lowered Alcohol wine style is not a low alcohol percent wine that results from traditional wine making processes such as: intentional duration of fermentation process, natural degree of sugar in the grape juice, added sugar, sugar level influenced by the level of grape maturation at harvest, or factors from the natural terroir or climates that the grapes were grown. Physical processing methods to reduce alcohol content in wine include: membrane processes, distillation process, or a combination of these processes. Membrane processes include: reverse osmosis, osmotic distillation, and nanofiltration. Distillation treatments include: vacumn distillation, vacumn rectification, spinning cone column processing, and common distillation. These physical processing methods can also be used in wine making to affect other wine ingredients not related to alcohol, and also used in commercial processing of other types of liquids. See reference: https://www.intechopen.com/books/advances-in-grape-and-wine-biotechnology/alcohol-reduction-by-physical-methods Non-alcoholic wine is a wine where the alcohol content is lowered to 0.5% alcohol or lower. Official percent alcohol to be classified as a non-alcoholic wine differs in various countries.