Open laurenechan opened 2 years ago
I would see plant milk sitting under non-mammalian milk, which could also include things like synthetic milk. Milks from cellular agriculture could be either mammalian or plant derived. Additionally, I would see dairy milk sitting under mammalian milk. As this food-space evolves, we will need a flexible multi-homing framework.
On Tue, Jun 21, 2022 at 2:01 PM Lauren @.***> wrote:
NTR: plant milk Parent Term/Class:
Vegetarian food product (FOODON_00003194), open to other options as well Definition:
A vegetarian food product which is a milk-substitute or analog made from a non-dairy, plant source Definition Source:
( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_milk#:~:text=Plant%20milks%20are%20non%2Ddairy,Plant%20milk ) Synonym(s):
non-dairy milk Attribution:
0000-0002-7463-6306 Additional Comments (not an annotation):
In particular, I am looking for this term as a grouping term to nest cashew milk, soy bean milk, almond milk etc. underneath, likely as a secondary parent as all of those are currently classified elsewhere
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Hi there,
« non-mammalian milk » is a funny twist too !
Milk is by nature the secretion by mammalian
I would say that « non-mammalian milk » could be referred to « milk substitute and defined as « aqueous extract from seeds »
In addition, vegetarian product’s definition is too restrictive because there are also meat-analog or meat substitute, not only milk-subsitute
A vegetarian food product which is a milk-substitute or analog made from a non-dairy, plant source
Cheers ! Magalie De : Matthew Lange @.> Envoyé : mercredi 22 juin 2022 00:58 À : FoodOntology/foodon @.> Cc : Subscribed @.***> Objet : Re: [FoodOntology/foodon] NTR: Plant milk (Issue #212)
I would see plant milk sitting under non-mammalian milk, which could also include things like synthetic milk. Milks from cellular agriculture could be either mammalian or plant derived. Additionally, I would see dairy milk sitting under mammalian milk. As this food-space evolves, we will need a flexible multi-homing framework.
On Tue, Jun 21, 2022 at 2:01 PM Lauren @.***> wrote:
NTR: plant milk Parent Term/Class:
Vegetarian food product (FOODON_00003194), open to other options as well Definition:
A vegetarian food product which is a milk-substitute or analog made from a non-dairy, plant source Definition Source:
( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_milk#:~:text=Plant%20milks%20are%20non%2Ddairy,Plant%20milk ) Synonym(s):
non-dairy milk Attribution:
0000-0002-7463-6306 Additional Comments (not an annotation):
In particular, I am looking for this term as a grouping term to nest cashew milk, soy bean milk, almond milk etc. underneath, likely as a secondary parent as all of those are currently classified elsewhere
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Discussed June 23
FoodOn has "plant derived beverage" that can be parent term.
"milk beverage analog"
"milk substitute" should be deprecated for "milk analog" "milk substitute of vegetable origin" -> "milk analog of vegetable origin" -> "plant-based milk analog"
Discussed "plant-based milk analog" as a favorite. Feedback open on this!
Synonyms: plant milk plant-based milk plant milk analog milk-like beverage milk alternative milk substitute non-mammalian milk broad: milk analog
Difference between analog, substitute and imitation.
Cellular agriculture may produce milk products soon.
Damion will write up on FoodOn milk page.
The reality is that there are classes of food products called soy milk, almond milk, etc. As much as I would agree with you from a scientific definition, again, the culinary definition holds just as much weight. In the same way that no one really thinks that peanut butter is actually a type of butter--and it is not called a butter analog. I think we need to respect the culinary definitions as much as the scientific definitions--if not more--since they reflect what people are actually calling the things that they are eating.
On Thu, Jun 23, 2022 at 9:48 AM Damion Dooley @.***> wrote:
Discussed June 23 FoodOn has "plant derived beverage" that can be parent term. "milk beverage analog"
"milk substitute" should be deprecated for "milk analog" "milk substitute of vegetable origin" -> "milk analog of vegetable origin" -> "plant-based milk analog"
Discussed "plant-based milk analog" as a favorite. Feedback open on this!
Synonyms: plant milk plant-based milk plant milk analog milk-like beverage milk alternative milk substitute non-mammalian milk broad: milk analog
Difference between analog, substitute and imitation.
Cellular agriculture may produce milk products soon.
Damion will write up on FoodOn milk page.
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Hi Matthew
What would be the parent class ? plant milk ? « Milk » is actually not the correct parent for soy milk, neither « Butter » is for peanut butter !
What do you suggest ?
Magalie De : Matthew Lange @.> Envoyé : mardi 11 octobre 2022 09:47 À : FoodOntology/foodon @.> Cc : Magalie Weber @.>; Comment @.> Objet : Re: [FoodOntology/foodon] NTR: Plant milk (Issue #212)
The reality is that there are classes of food products called soy milk, almond milk, etc. As much as I would agree with you from a scientific definition, again, the culinary definition holds just as much weight. In the same way that no one really thinks that peanut butter is actually a type of butter--and it is not called a butter analog. I think we need to respect the culinary definitions as much as the scientific definitions--if not more--since they reflect what people are actually calling the things that they are eating.
On Thu, Jun 23, 2022 at 9:48 AM Damion Dooley @.<mailto:@.>> wrote:
Discussed June 23 FoodOn has "plant derived beverage" that can be parent term. "milk beverage analog"
"milk substitute" should be deprecated for "milk analog" "milk substitute of vegetable origin" -> "milk analog of vegetable origin" -> "plant-based milk analog"
Discussed "plant-based milk analog" as a favorite. Feedback open on this!
Synonyms: plant milk plant-based milk plant milk analog milk-like beverage milk alternative milk substitute non-mammalian milk broad: milk analog
Difference between analog, substitute and imitation.
Cellular agriculture may produce milk products soon.
Damion will write up on FoodOn milk page.
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The above "plant-based milk analog" and its children easily coexist (polyhierarchy) with having "almond milk" also under "almond food product", "soy milk" under "soybean food product" etc. so I don't see what the problem is?
If there are issues with the use of "analog" or "substitute" in the main label, what if we included them as synonyms to a label like "non-dairy milk food product" or the previously suggested "non-mammalian milk food product" (although if it is mammalian cellular culture derivative then this might be confusing).
Example hierarchy
Where non-dairy milk food product
has parent classes such as beverage food product
, milk beverage analog
, etc.
Rhiannon, I think you are right, I think the problem is the word "analog", it is confusing. Again, "peanut butter" does not sit under "plant-based butter analog". At this point, "plant-based milk" should be OK. I also think we need classes for "cell-based milk". "Mammalian milk" would also be a class at the same level. There may be others. I am slightly troubled by the use of the term "based" in the vernacular, and think the word "derived" is more accurate--but alas there are tradeoffs. Matching the way people are using specific terms (even if slightly less accurate), may encourage broader adoption. The word "derived" could exist in the concept's definition. See here https://www.foodnavigator-asia.com/Article/2020/01/24/Hot-Right-Now-Top-trends-cell-based-milk-plant-based-product-labels-and-more-trending-stories-from-social-media as an example reference point.
On Tue, Nov 8, 2022 at 11:04 AM Rhiannon Cameron @.***> wrote:
Where non-dairy milk food product has parent classes such as 'beverage food product', milk beverage analog, etc.
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I don't think "peanut butter" is a good example - just because the word "butter" is in the label doesn't get it promoted to "plant-based butter analog". It would more aptly be put under "plant-based spread" which would also handle vegi pate. But we can still have "plant-based butter analog" if research trying to achieve that product as a goal needs it. (Then instance data gets whatever can be inferred from that class.)
My point about the word "analog" is that, while technically correct, nobody in food refers to things this way. If we want greater uptake by diverse users, I think we need to look at which terms are being used in communities of practice, and how they are evolving as a result of consumer and industry pressures. In this sense, food is certainly different from scientific fields with less pressure from these communities, where more emphasis can be on technical precision, without regard to common vernacular.
On Tue, Nov 8, 2022 at 12:32 PM Damion Dooley @.***> wrote:
I don't think "peanut butter" is a good example - just because the word "butter" is in the label doesn't get it promoted to "plant-based butter analog". It would more aptly be put under "plant-based spread" which would also handle vegi pate. But we can still have "plant-based butter analog" if research trying to achieve that product as a goal needs it. (Then instance data gets whatever can be inferred from that class.)
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We've had a round of discussion on analog vs imitation vs substitute - https://groups.google.com/g/foodon-consortium/c/TsMgJVVaDp0/m/-NuYtzkmBgAJ ; Open to suggestions to change labelling. I think the problem was all the options were not great so we chose the least bad one. Imitation => implications of inferiority, not symmetrical; substitute, same thing; analog at least is symmetric. Can we argue that we're helping clear up semantics in the biz in an apolitical way?
The problem I see is the point of reference. What you are offering are quasi-synonyms reflecting a normative viewpoint with one , e.g. "milk" as a canonical that others are trying to analogize or imitate. What I am proposing instead is that the names reflect the source of origin without saying anything about what you think they are trying to imitate or analogize.
On Tue, Nov 8, 2022 at 5:46 PM Damion Dooley @.***> wrote:
We've had a round of discussion on analog vs imitation vs substitute - https://groups.google.com/g/foodon-consortium/c/TsMgJVVaDp0/m/-NuYtzkmBgAJ ; Open to suggestions to change labelling. I think the problem was all the options were not great so we chose the least bad one. Immitation => implications of inferiority, not symmetrical; substitute, same thing; analog at least is symmetric. Can we argue that we're helping clear up semantics in the biz in an apolitical way?
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I think we're in agreement that we handle this by allowing classes for generic concepts like imitation or analog, but we eliminate any children from them that are specific foods, i.e. we eliminate judgement calls? We have researchers declare something is an imitation of something else at the instance level if they want, but we don't have that kind of thing at a class level.
BTW can people taste the difference between artificial and natural vanilla straight up - a natural vs synthesized extract? The vanilla molecule might be identical but at a mixture level is there enough of a difference to taste? If so that suggests some merit to them being analogs. We could rename "food product analog" relation to "food product parallel" perhaps.
Sorry Damion, I am not sure we are in agreement here about "analog" or "parallel"--I am questioning the justification for that terminology. Also, I can absolutely taste the difference (and so can many many people) between vanilla extract and synthetic vanillin, which is indeed imitation vanilla. In this case, the synthesized vanillin molecule aims to imitate the flavor of real vanilla (whereas soy milk does not aim to imitate cows milk). The reason trained sensory scientists and chefs (and really anyone who tries) can smell/taste the difference between vanilla extract and synthetic vanillin is because vanillin is a single molecule, whereas the molecules in real vanilla extract contain well over 200 different aroma and tastant compounds...honestly, it's not even close. The use of the term 'imitation' in this case is totally warranted at both instance and class levels, and is actually currently used by the food industry and its regulators.
On Tue, Nov 8, 2022 at 9:29 PM Damion Dooley @.***> wrote:
BTW can people taste the difference between artificial and natural vanilla straight up - a natural vs synthesized extract? The vanilla molecule might be identical but at a mixture level is there enough of a difference to taste? If so that suggests some merit to them being analogs. We could rename "food product analog" relation to "food product parallel" perhaps.
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Seems good to me !
It is more « neutral » to pref label « non-dairy milk food product » and use the relationship « has analog » when needed rather than include synonyms directly
De : Rhiannon Cameron @.> Envoyé : mardi 8 novembre 2022 19:59 À : FoodOntology/foodon @.> Cc : Magalie Weber @.>; Comment @.> Objet : Re: [FoodOntology/foodon] NTR: Plant milk (Issue #212)
If there are issues with the use of "analog" or "substitute" in the main label, what if we included them as synonyms to a label like "non-dairy milk food product" or the previously suggested "non-mammalian milk food product" (although if it is mammalian cellular culture derivative then this might be confusing).
Example hierarchy
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Mostly I am in agreement with this scheme, but we will need to define what "dairy" means in the context of milk production. Typically that refers to gathering animals into a confined place for a milking process--which some animal rights ethicists object to. This generally includes buffalo, goats, sheep, and even camels when specified...but there are lots of mammalian milks, and we should be sufficiently abstract to allow space for others. I do love the definition of "colloidal emulsion of non-dairy proteins, fats, and water", though I think it needs "liquid" in there--since i.e. butter and ice cream are also colloidal emulsions. I wonder if we can have/alter parent class "milk food product" with the definition, "a liquid colloidal emulsion of proteins, fats, and water" or some such...without reference to origin. Also, we may need some in-between classes in the potential hierarchy e.g.:
There are other emerging production methods that are still in the lab, but could reach pilot scale soon--these include a combinations of (animal) tissue engineering, genetically engineered plants/yeast with mammalian milk production genes inside, and chemical synthesis. I am not sure we should be pre-composing all combinatorics, but we should at least attempt to stay abreast of emerging tech, and make space in the hierarchies for what we see coming.
On Wed, Nov 9, 2022 at 5:31 AM Magalie WEBER @.***> wrote:
Seems good to me !
It is more « neutral » to pref label « non-dairy milk food product » and use the relationship « has analog » when needed rather than include synonyms directly
De : Rhiannon Cameron @.> Envoyé : mardi 8 novembre 2022 19:59 À : FoodOntology/foodon @.> Cc : Magalie Weber @.>; Comment @.> Objet : Re: [FoodOntology/foodon] NTR: Plant milk (Issue #212)
If there are issues with the use of "analog" or "substitute" in the main label, what if we included them as synonyms to a label like "non-dairy milk food product" or the previously suggested "non-mammalian milk food product" (although if it is mammalian cellular culture derivative then this might be confusing).
Example hierarchy
- non-dairy milk food product [...] = A food product which is colloidal emulsion of non-dairy proteins, fats, and water.
- plant milk food product [...] = A non-dairy milk food product which is manufactured from a plant source.
- seed milk [...] (which includes seeds of drupes, seeds/beans of legumes, true nuts, etc.)
- nut milk [FOODON:03420214] (single seed in a shell, all nuts are seeds)
- hemp milk [...]
- hazelnut milk [...]
- sunflower seed milk [...]
- cashew milk [FOODON:00003866]
- almond milk [FOODON:00003157]
- pistachio milk [...]
- coconut milk [FOODON:03303084]
- pecan milk [...]
- walnut milk [...]
- peanut milk [FOODON:03312052]
- soybean milk [FOODON:03305289]
- soybean milk (flavored) [FOODON:03317656]
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Ok, let's devote tomorrow's FoodOn curator's meeting to finalizing much of this. I'm interested in precomposing terms (+synonyms) that exist in research today so they can be used as keywords at a metadata level.
There are cases where foods are "imitations" forever, and other cases where they want to dissassociate themselves from inferiority complexes around being imitations! We want to handle all these cases.
@mateolan ok lets see about expanding our similarity relations beyond what we came to a few years ago re. noncommittal "has food product analog".
"has food product analog": a symmetric relation between two very organoleptically similar food products. E.g. milk and soy milk, where substitution is possible in some cases, but where communities may prefer their own product over the other. "has imitation food product": an asymmetric relation between a food product and another food product designed to organoleptically imitate it.
Maybe there's a better word for "organoleptically" ?
Relationship-wise, "has imitation food product" can't be a subclass of "has food product analog" because of the symmetry/asymmetry clauses.
Class-wise, it seems like a "food product analog" class could have "imitation food product" under it. One could populate the "imitation food product" class with things like synthetic vanilla, and not expect that ever to be incorrect, unless say natural vanilla ceased to exist.
We could adjust our existing "milk or milk based food product" to be "mammalian milk or milk-based food product". I can see merit of switching from "-based" to "-derived".
FoodOn could have a super-generic cross-organism "milk food product" - but where would it go? Under "food product" we currently have "food product analog" , but perhaps this is renamed "food product by organoleptic quality"!!!! In that way "milk" covers all things milk-like?
@mateolan : ok for definition of non-dairy milk food product [...] = A liquid food product which is colloidal emulsion of non-dairy proteins, fats, and water.
A defintion for milk could be "an opaque white fluid rich in fat and protein, secreted by female mammals for the nourishment of their young."
To milk in English refers to the action of drawing milk from (a cow or other animal), either by hand or mechanically. "Dairy" is specific to cattle, you are right Matthew but in other countries (like France) the legal definition of "Milk" is exclusively for cows, and when it comes from another species, it should be mentioned explicitely.
I think it is a good point to have some in-between classes in the hierarchy as suggested to have some "flexibility"
@ddooley not sure that soya milk and cow milk have similar organoleptic qualities! Actually, they neither have similar nutritional qualities....I do not think that there is a symetric relation, I think that the relation is more a kind of "substitution" where communities may prefer their own product over the other ( that is a matter of personal choice)
I think adding liquid makes sense if we are going with a "beverage" parent term, but then we have to keep in mind that classes "milk (powdered)" would no longer work as a subclass and have to have a different relation.
"Dairy" is specific to cattle, you are right Matthew but in other countries (like France) the legal definition of "Milk" is exclusively for cows, and when it comes from another species, it should be mentioned explicitly.
I think it's better to start broad (use the broadest version of dairy apply to multiple species, e.g., in Canada it isn't exclusive to cow milk) and then make more exclusive versions like "cow milk" as well as other species to map to more specific agency needs.
Want to avoid conveying a specific "state" in the upper level food product branch. Need to remove the UBERON "milk" from the food product branch and just leave it under "bodily fluids"
Want to do the same thing for non-plant milks, making clear in the annotations that the use of "dairy" in "non-dairy" applies to mammalian milk products not just standard cattle.
Cross posted with issue #218
Great work Rhiannon. I am concerned about the term dairy--if we don't have an unambiguous, multi-stakeholder consensed definition, then we might want to leave it out. If we have a good operational definition for dairy as a descriptor, then no worries. Otherwise we may want to go with "non-animal derived/based"
Also, why are eggs always lumped into the dairy section in North America?
On Thu, Nov 10, 2022 at 10:56 AM Rhiannon Cameron @.***> wrote:
2022.11.10 - FoodOn Curation Meeting:
Want to avoid conveying a specific "state" in the upper level food product branch. Need to remove the UBERON "milk" from the food product branch and just leave it under "bodily fluids"
- "mammalian milk food product" (not state specific) is derived from "milk" [UBERON Term] (which is a liquid)
- mammalian milk (liquid)
- mammalian milk (powdered)
- mammalian milk by organism
- cow milk
- cow milk (liquid)
- cow milk (powdered)
Want to do the same thing for non-plant milks, making clear in the annotations that the use of "dairy" in "non-dairy" applies to mammalian milk products not just standard cattle.
- food product
- non-dairy milk product
- plant milk product
- nut milk product
Cross posted with issue #218 https://github.com/FoodOntology/foodon/issues/218
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I am concerned about the term dairy--if we don't have an unambiguous, multi-stakeholder consensed definition, then we might want to leave it out. If we have a good operational definition for dairy as a descriptor, then no worries.
The current definition of dairy food product
[FOODON:00001256] is:
A dairy food product has mamm[a]lian milk or a milk component as an ingredient.
This definition is based off US CFR (according to our axioms).
If we don't have a consensus with that definition we can have another discussion thread (#256) about that and then put a temporary pause on this or move forward with a non-animal version. If people don't take issue with it that I would default to moving forward with non-dairy
but then add non-animal
and some of the other suggestions as synonyms or alternative labels (or one of them can be the primary label if people feel a strong preference for it).
Also, why are eggs always lumped into the dairy section in North America?
Seriously no idea and am personally not a fan of it. Perhaps because they tend to move together through industry together (or at least often end up in the same sections or groceries stores) or because are both considered "non-meat animal products"?
This is good to highlight though, perhaps we need to add a dairy claim or use
food datum for users who do label eggs this way.
Damion in issue #218
Looks good! My only thought is that non-dairy milk product could be placed under "food by quality" since the general category of "milk" is a substance with loosely a certain quality to it. It could go under "food product by organism", if we allow that cellular (e.g. yeast) agriculture food products can fit there too. Hmm.
I strongly agree with food product by organism
being a parent class and am left feeling uncertain about it being a food product by quality
but that comes from a lack of experience with applying qualities. @ddooley, so if we went with the quality direction too, then a class like "goat powdered milk food product" would end up a subclass
of "goat food product", as well as has quality
"food (milk)" and "food (powdered)"? And then something like "almond milk food product" would be a subclass
of "almond food product" and has quality
"food (milk)", only applying "food (liquid)" if we know for certain the form factor?
@ddooley (in an email thread) also proposed the possibility of a milk-style food product
class which is worth adding to the discussion here.
We'll also need to address having sub-branch agency compliant classifications (as previously discussed with wine and other alcoholic beverages) - I am wondering if this warrants it's own discussion though so we can design a model that we can reuse (and adapt) as these cases repeat themselves.
Hello, It should be made clear what a "milk component" is in the current definition of dairy food product [FOODON:00001256].
I like the suggestion of "non-animal" rather than "non-dairy" milk product (a synonym could be milk-style food product if we state in the definition that milk-style food products are non-animal milk products)
Actually, eggs and milk are often put together in grocery but it is strange to label eggs with a dairy use/claim ???
I've outlined a possible way forward for "milk component" / "dairy" in #256.
In the meantime we could move forward with the primary label using "non-animal" ("non-dairy" as a synonym) so we can get a structural foundation to work with when composing regional/agency specific definitions (and also get @laurenechan a term to use).
Actually, eggs and milk are often put together in grocery but it is strange to label eggs with a dairy use/claim ???
Definitely weird, which is why I was proposing a vague "dairy use/claim" just for the cases where people are incorrectly labeling eggs as dairy (not tying it into the food product hierarchy). Even if we don't approve, since it happens it could be helpful to have something like this for those users (rather than them using the true dairy terms).
NTR: plant milk
Parent Term/Class:
Vegetarian food product (FOODON_00003194), open to other options as well
Definition:
A vegetarian food product which is a milk-substitute or analog made from a non-dairy, plant source
Definition Source:
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_milk#:~:text=Plant%20milks%20are%20non%2Ddairy,Plant%20milk)
Synonym(s):
non-dairy milk
Attribution:
0000-0002-7463-6306
Additional Comments (not an annotation):
In particular, I am looking for this term as a grouping term to nest cashew milk, soy bean milk, almond milk etc. underneath, likely as a secondary parent as all of those are currently classified elsewhere