Allow opt-out from Mailspring ID

[OmeGak]

Edit by Maintainers: You can find a more complete response to this question on our Knowledge Base here: https://foundry376.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/115003141552-What-is-a-Mailspring-ID-and-why-do-I-need-one-

Feature Request? I'm not interested in the features Mailspring ID brings. Would it be possible to use Mailspring without Mailspring ID? I believe all necessary features for a fully-working open source email client are built-in, so why forcing to use Mailspring ID? This, along with mailsync not being open source (#24), kinda defeats the purpose of the Mailspring client being open source. Well, besides the fact that anybody can make a fork of this project and disable the feature.

Does this feature exist in another mail client or tool you use?

Thunderbird.

---

It seems there is now a fork, started by @notpushkin, that removes Mailspring ID. Updating the issue to give it some visibility to the comment that announces it:

Hey broth/33/rs, tell me what you think. https://github.com/notpushkin/Mailspring-Libre

[RussH]

+1

[lamixer]

I find myself again searching for a Linux imap mail client that works for me (decent feature set, and attractive on Gnome 3) and discovered Nylas mail and the recent forks thereof. I would like to use Mailspring as my email client but don't want to send my email to a third party -- that's why I run my own email server!

So, long way to say, +1.

I doubt it would hurt your business model and maybe some 'imap-only' users will help you improve the client further.

[mmarif4u]

I was about to create an issue for this and saw this one. Thanks for creating one.

And yes i agree it totally defeat the purpose of using own mail server if i am going to be dependent on third party server for few features.

[ldartez]

i am also not interested in mailspring ID and i would like to opt out.

[step21]

FWIW, as far as I know, your email is not sent to a third party. Let alone, because hosting costs would prob be much higher if they were. While I cannot speak for @bengotow etc, it seems that for now Mailspring requires the id. I shared many of the concerns mentioned, when the emails were actually stored on the server, as with the original N1 client. For everybody else, you could try NylasMailLives which is in the process of not requiring an ID (or maybe has already removed it by now) and might in the future use the sync-engine from Mailspring or a similar one if possible. And also fixed many bugs already. Also, Geary just very recently released 0.12 with many improvements. This might be not entirely on-topic, but before trying to argue about business models or another fork, maybe it is best to revisit the alternatives that are there and might move in a direction that is more suitable to you and perhaps help improve them.

[bengotow]

Hey folks! Thanks for filing this—I actually debated what to do about the "Nylas ID" concept when I forked Nylas Mail and ended up keeping something similar in place. This is great feedback.

The ID concept in Mailspring is a bit different than in Nylas Mail: Mailspring stores your mail credentials securely on your machine in the keychain / keyring, and does not send your email credentials to the cloud. All email sync is done on your computer. (This may change in the future as new features launch, but it will always be opt-in per the Privacy Policy.) Your Mailspring ID stores small bits of metadata used for snoozing, send later, read receipts, etc., and also allows for feature rate-limiting, which can be removed by purchasing Mailspring Pro.

I know you're not interested in the features provided by the Mailspring ID, and that's totally fine! I'd really love for you to use Mailspring as your mail client even if you just want a prettier Thunderbird.

That said, Mailspring is intended to be a /product/ as well as an open source project. If everything works out, revenue from Mailspring Pro (which competes with subscription products like Mailbird, Rapportive, Mixmax, etc.) will allow me and others at F376 to allocate time to maintaining it indefinitely. Maybe one day we can find another sponsor like Nylas (which spent upwards of $2.5M developing Nylas Mail) or Mozilla to remove the financial concerns, but for now Mailspring needs to target paying customers with great pro features so I can continue working on it full-time. The Mailspring ID is a core component of these Pro features and a lot of exciting stuff on the roadmap, like team templates, read receipt analytics and shared folders. Unfortunately, it doesn't make sense to remove the Mailspring ID and make the mail client better for you, because it pulls us further away from doing a great job on the pro features for paying users that will ultimately make this a long-lasting open source project.

Hope that helps! I'm going to flag this as a wontfix for now, but I welcome everyone's thoughts and feedback here. As I dig into the pro feature development a bit more, I'll revisit this to see if we could make login optional.

[mmarif4u]

Yes, the sync i am sure everyone is aware of, the only few features which need the id are tracking, pro etc. The thing is to not create another id in the process and use the app like TB/Geary etc.

@step21 thanks for the mentions. From this thread, i guess id(not tested yet) is not required anymore for NML.

@bengotow making login optional would be great, but that totally depends on your business model in the future.

For now i will try NML, and see it that fits. If not yet, i will stick to TB(old is gold sometime).

[step21]

Just two (subjective/my point of view) observations on business models - I was wondering, have you thought of combining e-mail hosting with the client subscription? This probably was more applicable to the original 'N1' client, but the most annoying thing for me was always to have another intermediary, between me and my mail server/provider that not only stores the mail (in the case of N1) but also wants to be paid. Whereas if I could for example pay to set my mx records accordingly or use @mailspring-mail.com or similar, this would have been easier to justify a then at least for that account, you pay for e-mail but also get the client. (obv also doesn't apply to many accounts that you cannot control etc) Second, while I guess most businesses like subscriptions, because they are recurring, the 'problem' is that so many companies, especially 'digital' ones are doing that. So in a sense, there is a new category of utilities that many people pay for, which can quickly add up and is in this case almost without limit. And while I like to have my utilities, as people do, I think that probably most people do not like paying for them, especially if they are adding up and seemingly only getting more. Sorry if this is maybe too off-topic/meta, but as we are on the topic of subscription I thought it fit.

[shibacomputer]

All I want is a beautiful email client. I've loved everything about Nylas N1 and, now, Mailspring but this was and continues to be a dealbreaker for me . On one hand I am so thrilled that the project continues in this new form, but that I can't opt out of Mailspring ID means that I can't support this project. I urge you to seriously consider alternatives for 'basic' email use that don't include any of the features that require joining a third party service.

Either way, good luck!

[jGleitz]

If Mailspring ID is a showstopper for some people, and Mailspring ID is a way to generate income from the project, wouldn’t it be an option to offer the opt-out from Mailspring ID against payment? To me, it seems like this would open another stream of income from people that can not be reached by the current business model, without losing any potential of the current business model.

Or would none of the people interested in this issue be willing to pay for Mailspring’s development?

[shibacomputer]

@jGleitz Personally, I'm very willing to pay for Mailspring in some form, even as a reasonably priced subscription. I'm not willing to send any email activity to a third party service.

[philfreo]

Mailspring stores your mail credentials securely on your machine in the keychain / keyring, and does not send your email credentials to the cloud. All email sync is done on your computer. (This may change in the future as new features launch, but it will always be opt-in per the Privacy Policy.) Your Mailspring ID stores small bits of metadata used for snoozing, send later, read receipts, etc., and also allows for feature rate-limiting, which can be removed by purchasing Mailspring Pro.

You made a point in your website's documentation to say what isn't sent to the cloud. However you should be more explicit about exactly what is sent to your servers.

[egrueda]

In the end, there's absolutely no need to store anything in any server, that's beyond the target of an email client. An email client cannot create that mandatory dependance with a 3rd party, it's really insane if you have an email provider and you still depend on another company and your data (whatever) will be in their servers. IMHO, forcing users to be full dependant without need is not the way. This could be a nice mail client, but developer's goals are above user's needs, so it will never become extended. You must respect user's privacy and independency, but it seems mailspring's core was built against all of that :-(

[ldartez]

@egrueda, agreed! Hopefully things will become more sensible down the road.

[muuuh]

I also hope there will be an opt-out possibility for the analytics package. Don't know what's happening here. https://github.com/Foundry376/Mailspring/blob/master/app/internal_packages/analytics/lib/analytics-store.es6#L94

[step21]

@muuuh I'd say it sends the name and address you registered with, for analytics I guess.

[gitbobbed]

Just adding support to the idea of having a paid version of Mailspring specifically for those users that don't want to have to create a Mailspring ID to use the tool.

I honestly don't have a problem with them having an ID that lets them offer useful features that wouldn't be possible otherwise, but understand that others might not want to. Maybe offer it for a one-time payment without the Pro features?

Also support the idea of a reasonable monthly subscription service for the Pro features.

[gyunaev]

I support the (cheaper) subscription idea for non-Pro users. Something which might be valuable is ability to opt out of analytics/telemetry - the old saying is "if you're not paying for the product, YOU are the product" - but I'd prefer to pay for it and NOT be a product.

Another issue this may also address is viability of the company, which would in turn improve Pro subscriptions. As someone using Link Tracking from another platform, frankly I'd need to be VERY sure the company doing link tracking is still in business for at least a year after the campaign starts (I still receive tracking from some emails we've sent in 2010!!!). Some of the marketing campaigns have long-lasting effect and cost lots of money - and if the company which tracks my links decide to stop doing business, this would be a major blow.

[OddDev]

Even if I'm using Pro I need to create a mailspring ID, correct?

[gitbobbed]

Quick question: are snoozed e-mails supposed to sync across different instances of Mailspring tied to the same Mailspring ID? Like, if you have Mailspring installed in your laptop and desktop, will a message resurface on either of those automatically? Or only if I open the instance in which the e-mail was originally snoozed?

[jGleitz]

Even if I'm using Pro I need to create a mailspring ID, correct?

That’s correct. One proposal we made in this issue is to offer disabling Mailspring ID against a fee.

[OddDev]

How about making the ID optional when on pro? Can be sold as a pro feature and fits seamlessly.

[step21]

@gitbobbed if you want an answer, make a new issue or write directly to support, this thread seems like the wrong place to ask.

[Goddard]

I liked it until I found this out. Real bummer for me. Clearly the meta data must be valuable for you to consider it an option for free/open users. Usually open source projects operate a community version and then a corporate/business version. You are employing that along with meta data collection?

[jsamr]

@bengotow

I'm in favor of opt-in ID too. But if you want to keep those ID mandatory, at least you should guarantee some PII protection to users, which is not yet the case (see below).

If everything works out, revenue from Mailspring Pro [...] will allow me and others at F376 to allocate time to maintaining it indefinitely.

If you aim at maintaining indefinitely, I suggest you shall remove this paragraph from your privacy policy document, which I find disturbing:

Information Disclosed in Connection with Business Transactions. Information that we collect from our users, including PII, is considered to be a business asset. Thus, if we are acquired by a third party as a result of a transaction such as a merger, acquisition or asset sale or if our assets are acquired by a third party in the event we go out of business or enter bankruptcy, some or all of our assets, including your PII, may be disclosed or transferred to a third party acquirer in connection with the transaction.

[step21]

As I see it, with some legal knowledge, this is just informing you of what would happen in such a case. Even if it was not there, it would probably still take place in the case of the events described therein.

[Sebastiaan76]

This mandatory ID is 100% why I won't be using Mailspring. It's a dealbreaker for me, and probably many others. I'd also be happy to pay to not have this 'feature'. Will keep an eye on the project and hopefully some common sense prevails to at least make this an optional component of the software.

[OddDev]

This mandatory ID is 100% why I won't be using Mailspring. It's a dealbreaker for me

Agree 100%

[replaid]

@bengotow I paid $50 for MailMate on the Mac, and am now looking for its equal on Linux. I would be willing to pay up to $100 for a Mailspring product that didn't leak information to any third parties, didn't have this ID thing, and didn't try to upsell me. I am a different kind of customer from the Pro customer and would not buy the Pro product for any price, but would love to buy an upsell-less version of the free download. I think there are many of this kind of user.

[step21]

I would love that software too, I only disagree with the payment part - I would think that there are very few people willing to pay 100 $ for a mail client, especially with free alternatives available. Furthermore, with the exception of the sync engine, the rest of Mailspring is under GPL v3 nobody could prohibit distribution of that part, afaik. Which would also make this model you guys proposed unfeasible and is likely one reason for the current model.

[jonkri]

As attractive as Mailspring is, I won't use it unless (it's fully open source and) I can opt out of Mailspring ID and any other features that sends information to some server. I would be interested in paying for it as well.

[id777]

That's bullshit, not an open source product. Open source means freedom and security. Both of it fucked here.

Just wonder why no one yet forked this and get rid of ID spy component.

[gyunaev]

To be fair, it doesn't claim to be an open source product. The readme page states "Mailspring's UI is entirely open-source and pull requests and contributions are welcome".

At the same time, the product as it is can only be distributed by its author, because while claiming to be licensed under GPL, it has binary-only modules. This means no one else - including distros for example - can redistribute it, as we won't be able to follow the GPL which requires complete corresponding source code.

[step21]

@id777 the old code was forked, ofc lacking some Mailspring improvements and the faster sync engine, and the fork is looking for maintainers. https://github.com/nylas-mail-lives/nylas-mail At least some gui stuff could probably be ported back. @gyunaev the original product has a js sync engine, maybe even just written to open-source it, because shortly afterwards it was shut down as a product from Nylas.

[lindhe]

@bengotow I would happily pay a subscription fee to your project on Patreon or via some mailspring account, but would never consider connecting my mail client to an account like it does now. Please, if you would make Mailspring account optional for using the client it would be fantastic!

[IamSpacename]

► Requiring a Mailspring ID to access my emails...has caused me to uninstall M.S. and delete my ID. 'No idea why this is "forced".. don't care why either .

► Two licensing choices and BOTH 'fail to meet modest expectations. I'd like to: • access all of my accounts ..more than 4. • no requiring the MailSpring ID..EVER. ..'which also means to me that you're not in my email access loop, nor do you have any info from my emails...etc etc ..I think it's called something like; PRIVACY.
• not pay monthly, but rather pay one time for a perpetual license, for a version with update support for the version. • be sure that my emails are only between me and the email server. No "middle service man" per se. Having a local email server and using the current form of MailSpring would be arse backwards. • I'd add more here, but I think the basics mentioned here, would be sufficient.

- You can tell me that you don't care.. sure. I'm ok with that. Either way, I think it would be nice if the team took a moment and stepped back to realign themselves with the users via the user-needs, wants, and of course; with the history of email since the (I assume)bleaching or allowing access to email-service-provider-read-receipts is an overreach for a paid feature IMHO.

ok, enough with the direct speak. I really like the client. It felt solid. I think I have used/tried every email program offered for Mac/Windows in the last 10 years or more..and IMHO, MailSpring has potential to be a strong marketshare competitor. 'BUT...BUT!!!!! ... well.. one sentence can sum up what I'm trying to say: Read the book or audible "The Go-Giver".

[Erdbeergeist]

too bad this id is mandatory, would have liked to use this app... I take it an opt out option is not planned.

[waynekearns]

+1 to this thread.

If you are not paying for a product, and the 'giver' wants something, seemingly innocuous from you, then YOU are the product.

I understand your position, but it seems like a very thinly veiled defense of a position that allows you to promote your product (to potential funders) as another data gathering platform. ie an email only alternative marketing platform, a la gmail.

Giving people the ability to opt out provides a complete remedy to that claim. Sadly, I deleted the MailSpring client and flagged it as malware on my system as soon as I found out about the requirement.

👎 It makes me sad.

[MatthewScholefield]

While I may disagree with not providing an opt-out mechanism, I applaud you for being honest rather than doing what most other companies would do and just ignoring or giving a BS reason. If you think that's that's the best decision to ensure the continued life of this project, then I respect that.

[macdanger]

Ok, I just wanted to try Mailspring but got harshly stopped by the dialog of creating a mandetory ID. This makes no sense to me for a Mail client. I just read here that this is what the authors think is best to finance the project. I don't agree with this approach, sorry. Maybe I will come back later when this changes, but for now I will not even try Mailspring ... sadly...

[SeAlgoAsoma]

Yeah, I didn't even evaluate Nylas because of this sleazy business. Requiring an ID to even open the program to evaluate if you want to use it? Not to mention promoting spywar^h^h^h^h^h^h "web bugs" as a selling point? Yuck. I see this has fully inherited the sleaze of the project it was forked from.

Good luck making your money. I paid a lot of money for my last client, MailMate, and then regularly willingly donated even more to the developer after buying, as part of his "patron" program, because he made a great email client. And now I will never be a part of your user base at all.

[SeAlgoAsoma]

Wow, it gets even worse. This is outright malware.

Mailspring sneakily installs a user agent to your system, even if you quit before surrendering your email address to them to get a "Mailspring ID". If you've ever even started Mailspring on your system once, you may have the hidden User Agent. To remove it, drop into Terminal and enter:

rm ~/Library/LaunchAgents/com.mailspring.plist 

Then reboot your machine.

My god, I can't believe how sleazy this product is. I'm going to see if Github has rules against hosting things that install user agents without your knowledge or permission.

[tbertels]

The right way to do it would be to invite the user to create a Mailspring ID when enabling the pro features. This ID is only necessary to enable those pro features, so forcing every user to create one just to test Mailspring may not be a smart move.

[waynekearns]

Thanks for the tip on the Launcher component. It definitely supports the theory that the Mailspring folks are trying to monetize using the "Facebook" model. It is a sad day.

[jorpilo]

I just wanted to try MailSpring for now but I am not willing to link the application with all my mail data to a single ID, even if mail credentials arent sync, totally freaks me out the fact of having all my accounts from different servers linked to one MailSpring ID

[jmelfi]

I would have loved to use this application. The GUI is well done, flows well, and the settings/etc. are excellent. Same issue as Polymail and other clients that require the id that's mentioned here. It's data collection.

If you let me opt-out and assist another way, I'd do so. If I could have my business use this without the id, I'd have a full team of developers probably switching to this. User advocates and contributors are ways to increase your user base, add new or improve plugins, and create a community.

Our users need a local email client with GPG support that doesn't do email syncing to another cloud as we have regulatory requirements around that. We use Thunderbird + Enigmail for GPG encryption. We don't need or require the "Pro" features. I could possibly convince the company I work for to give a donation or perhaps sponsor if we could do this; however, the ID is required. Even more, my company would pay a perpetual license for a version of the software.

Like many in this thread, I'd encourage a change.

Perhaps that is allowing individuals unlimited licensed use. Target to get Pro users to make MailSpring IDs and pay for the advanced features, but don't require the MailSpring ID for non-pro users.

Perhaps also look at how you would license this at a particular version or on an annual recurring basis for enterprises. This could be accomplished by a license server or a cloud management of the keys to be handed out similar to JetBrains or Parallels from either Active Directory or a set department.

Again, client is beautiful. It's fluid and elegant. It's too bad about the MailSpring ID.

[pferreir]

Maybe someone should just fork this and remove the id?

Edit: Oh... mailsync is closed source. I see... well, too bad. Seemed like a good client.

[jorpilo]

in fact, it already exist an open version of nylas-mail (the base proyecto of mailspring) https://github.com/nylas-mail-lives/nylas-mail But its not longer mantained...

[noplanman]

Would it hurt so much to just allow an opt-out and gain all the extra users that would actually like to use Mailspring but don't want those extra features provided by the ID?

I too find myself in the boat of "Why register yet another account, just to test a software and have extra features I don't want/need?"

[yasinuslu]

I would also make one-time payment for using mailspring without a mailspring id. I want to use this client both in my personal computer and company computer but the way it is i cannot use it.