Request: Ailerons and Flaps only permit 4 channels - we need more (???)

[Jedsters]

I see that we are limited to 4 channels for Ailerons and Flaps, however larger sailplains often have e.g. 6 or possibly 8 control surfaces on their wings all of which may be wanted as ailerons or flaps. Please can the limit of 4 be increased for these?

Of course, I could use e.g. the Ail mixer multiple times, but then that argument could be used to only allow 2 channels for each of ail or flaps mixers. Although that is an interesting question, now we have VARs, should we have e.g. an Ail mixer for each set of Ail and use the same VARs as sources where the same value is wanted (e.g. differential), or use VARs with calculations to make one VAR proportional to another? In which case maybe the 4 should be reduced to 2????

There is an element here of given the flexibiility that VARs now give us, I'm almost having to relearn how to create a model!

Thanks.

[strgaltdel]

Just my experience: In practice you will not use the aileron or flap mixer for all "control surfaces" of a 6 or 8 flap airplane.

If you build such a glider, you will have different mechanical linkages depending on the main function of the wing.

Let's say on an 8-flap glider, the innermost flap usually has no (or almost no) aileron function, but is used for camber and butterfly, which require as much downward deflection as possible. So you have to use a mech-differentiation linkage together with servo offsets.

The further you "step" to the outer control surfaces, the more the aileron function is used.

As far as aileron (and other) mixers provide only ONE parameter (like weight and differential) for ALL outputs, you must add mixers in pairs

It would make no sense to require more outputs in a mixer if it does not take over more parameters.

These mixers are more or less intended for RTF models where servos are always used without offset and linkages without mechanical differentiation.

If you are building a sports or larger semi-scale glider, you will have to go a different way as a mixer uses a lot of outputs.

Irrespective of this, I would also like to see mixers that support the use of more outputs by configuring weighting and differentiation in pairs.

However, I assume that this does not correspond to the "Ethos philosophy" of offering the simplest possible mixers for beginners

The more dedicated mixers you use, the more CPU resources are needed, which is then somehow reflected in secondary functions (sound distortion, etc.) if you create considerably more complex model temlates...

[mawzthefinn]

Use multiple mixers with shared VAR's for consistent adjusters. Or just use cascaded mixers (use the outputs of each side of the Ail or flaps mixer to feed Free mixes outputting to the actual surfaces).

The downsides in complexity of increasing this limit and the attached UI changes outweigh the minimal gains.

This has been discussed previously and the 4 channel limit will remain for now.

[Jedsters]

@strgaltdel This is for a Diana 3 which uses all 6 channels as Ail and as Flaps - from the supplied instructions:

What I would like to be able to do is use 1 Ail output for all 6 channels so they all have the same 'dual' rate, expo, diff and then as you describe for the 2 middle Ail add an extra Multiply line to reduce the throws and for the 2 flaps use a second multiply line to again reduce the throws further. A lovely simple setup.

But what is odd is that other mixers, e.g. Butterfly and the various 'Camber' mixers do allow more than 4 output channels so I'm not sure why things become more complicated for Ail and Flaps with more than 4 output channels.

I guess my work-around is Ail with output to Ail and 2nd Ail with a multiply line for the second Ail and then an identical Ail mixer but with different output channels for flaps with another multiply line for that. At least that's the only way I can think of fairly easily doing it at the minute. At least VARs means the 2 Ail mixers will remain in sync - so long as I don't change any of the VARs I use.

[strgaltdel]

all i can say is how i configure my setups:

" I would like to be able to do is use 1 Ail output for all 6 channels so they all have the same 'dual' rate," please think in "IPO" , an IT slang for input <> processing <> ouput You 're writing about an INPUT in a meaning of a "single point of truth" (look into wiki)

So, i design my aileron funktionality in pairs of mixers, each mixer has the same input processing (or parameters) like d/r; expo etc.. so in case i want d/r or expo by 30%, this is routed to ALL aileron mixers

weighting & diff is more "ouput processing" and so individually configured in each mixer setup

yes, one could extend the ethos aileron mixer, but this counterfight the paradigma of "ease of use for common users" i think

[bsongis-frsky]

How many channels would be reasonable, it's just a constant in Ethos. It won't complexify the firmware too much if we add another line "6 channels" after the "4 channels" line!

[strgaltdel]

Gliders very rarely have more than 8 flaps

Examples for 8 flaps

Nimbus 4 (several models with up to 8 m wingspan, larger models usually have 10 flaps) https://composite-rc-gliders.com/p/nimbus-4-5-1-m

vortex mach1 https://flugplatz.tangent-modelltechnik.com/vortx-mach-1-s-e

alpina 5001 https://wiki.rc-network.de/wiki/Alpina_5001_Pro_von_Tangent

several Diana 2, ASH25 examples and so on

so I vote for "8", if it is only one variable and does not consume more resources until you enter the higher number: "10"

this "ouperformes" any snow-people (-;

@Jedster, your opinion?

[Dsrenger]

Most of the bigger sailplanes (especially GPS Racing) have 8 control surfaces that get used for flaps and ailerons, that all move with different weights when I move the aileron stick or set the flaps. 10 control surfaces is quite rare.

So my vote would go to up to 8 channels.

p.s.: strgantdel was faster ;)

[strgaltdel]

.. a 12 flap Nimbus https://composite-rc-gliders.com/p/nimbus-4-10-5-m

but in case i remenber right, klaus holighaus , the constructor of the original, intended the winglet flap as a "rudder support " / counterfight Yaw moment. So it wasn't used as an aileron but deployed hard "up" in case you pushed rudder, without any down movement

[Jedsters]

I assume we are talking about both Ail and Flaps mixers. I currently need 6 of both, but can foresee a need for 8. I don't doubt that some models have more ail+flaps than that, but do they actually use all of them as all ail or all flaps? I'm quite happy with the 8 votes above. Given how responsive devs here are (huge thanks for that), if people find a need for more than 8 channels in Ail and Flaps mixers it can hopefully be addressed later on.

So 8 is good for me too

[strgaltdel]

btw, "old stories" of flying semi scale gliders with a bunch of flaps. happened to a friend of mine at wasserkuppe

he was flying his 6.x m ASH25 a guy / tourist happened to come by and asking "oh, what a nice glider, wondering that he's looking like a manned one some hundred meters away"

Friend, "yep, nice" (thinking "oh man, onother one, wanting to ask how big, how much...")

Tourist: "can you do a speedy fly by?"

Friend: "yepp, of course" .. fly by

Tourist: "Nice, stable flight"

Friend thinking "xxxxxx"

Tourist: "maybe you reduce your camber mixing on the outer 2 flaps by app. 10%, the wings should show a slightly cuvature at this speed, which indicates optimal reduced drag by vortex, your wings bend to less to get best performance"

Friend: "Huh?" thinking: "what the f.." asking friendly: "oh, you seems to have some knowledge about aerodynamics?"

Tourist: "Oh excuse me, didnt introduce myself, My name is martin, martin heide, working at schleicher, constructor / designer of the "original" ASH"

.. and walked away, with a slightly smile