Implement 'report a data problem'

PhilipClarke712 commented 3 years ago

@PatReynolds

This is the problem with words and understanding.

The answer to the precise example you gave above, the statement: "The mother's surname is wrong! This is me, and my mother was Susan Jones!!!!" is --- so what we only provide what is in the GRO Index. We are not going to changing it on your say so - Of course there is a much more polite way of putting that. That can be found on FreeBMD(2) and hopefully on Beta.

I transcribe for FreeBMD(1) so I know the FreeBMD : Transcribers' Knowledge Base https://www.freebmd.org.uk/vol_faq.html almost off by heart. So, I am specifically referring to entries transcribed in accordance with https://www.freebmd.org.uk/vol_faq.html#6u

My example (made up) is one that I might find in the GRO Index, of the form: Smith, Fred, Smith or Jones, somewhere, 10, 1066.

That would be transcribed as two records Smith, Fred, Smith, 10, 1066 (hash)COMMENT(2) entry reads Smith or Jones for mother's / Spouse's (as appropriate) name Smith, Fred, Jones, 10, 1066

If the transcriber enters that record wrongly, as a researcher I can request that the record(s) to be changed to what the GRO Index shows (subject to the changes that FreeBMD makes as per FAQ 6u) and my comment was intended to considered in that specific context. This has nothing to do with The mother's surname is wrong! This is me, and my mother was Susan Jones!!!!"

If you want a live example, or hundred, or a thousand, I will supply them

PhilipClarke712 commented 3 years ago

@PatReynolds I think this leads on to the big of question of how does the change get made? If this was FreeBMD(1), anyone asking for such a change would need to fill in a form (a different form to what is on FreeBMD2) and that change request will go (by a path unknown to me) to the transcriber of the entry, the syndicate of the that transcriber, or someone else (a live person). We (a live person) don't get to see the justification "The mother's surname is wrong! This is me, and my mother was Susan Jones!!!!" , we only get to see the change request. I/we decided if the change is needed, we do it or not, and record our decision on the system. Is the FreeBMD2 system of doing the change going to automated?

Note: FreeBMD(1) is purposely obscure, if the form is not completed in the way the system demands, the form will not be accepted.

geoffj-FUG commented 3 years ago

Pat

I know nothing about FreeBMD but looking at this simplistically I see an issue:

If I say my mothers name was Sally Jones am I sure about that or does it come under heresay?

If a child was born out of wedlock to a married mother the child would be registered under the mother’s married name. The child may however be known in the community under the father’s name. If the mother and father are subsequently married the registration for the child may have been re-issued.

I know that the registration should show the maiden name but I have an example in our family tree where it was not. So the child thought that their mother was Sally Jones (her first married name) whereas the documentation should have shown Sally Surname, her maiden name.

So my question is how is the advice verified?

Geoff

From: PatReynolds @.> Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2021 2:27 AM To: FreeUKGen/FreeBMD2 @.> Cc: geoffj-FUG @.>; Mention @.> Subject: Re: [FreeUKGen/FreeBMD2] Implement 'report a data problem' (#215)

@PhilipClarke712 https://github.com/PhilipClarke712 are you saying that if I enter "The mother's surname is wrong! This is me, and my mother was Susan Jones!!!!" the system will automatically say "The entry is Smith or Jones, and can be found as you can see in the image, and can be found by searching for both Smith and Jones, so no correction is needed".

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PhilipClarke712 commented 3 years ago

@PatReynolds, @geoffj-FUG

My response that generated the "heat" was to the comment from Vino-S about verifying the data that person wanting a request has to put on the form in order for the system to accept the form. Vino-S specifically referred to the Mother's name and the GRO Indexes do not provide that data before the second half of 1911 - so we can't have people asking us to add data that is not in GRO Index, but they can use a Postem to provide it themselves.

On FreeBMD(1) a live person decides if they are going to do the requested change. It is clear from FreeBMD(1) that we will only correct our mistakes in the the GRO Index, we will not correct the GRO's mistakes. Even if this woman "The mother's surname is wrong! This is me, and my mother was Susan Jones!!!!" sends a copy of her mother's birth certificate, will we not correct the GRO's index. She needs to get the GRO to correct their index first and then when that is done, will we change our index. We will correct our mistakes.

I do hope that FreeBMD2 is not going down the path of machine-correction of our indexes, based on what someone asks us to do.

geoffj-FUG commented 3 years ago

Philip

My comment was not intended as ‘heat’. I was being the devil’s advocate.

I agree with you that the GRO record should not be amended. I was simply outlining a scenario where a person may have an issue with the entry and was simply asking ‘ís it checked’? In the example case it is up to us to go back and say, you should consult all the birth certificates.

I apologise if my comment was taken the wrong way.

Geoff

From: PhilipClarke712 @.> Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2021 4:42 PM To: FreeUKGen/FreeBMD2 @.> Cc: geoffj-FUG @.>; Mention @.> Subject: Re: [FreeUKGen/FreeBMD2] Implement 'report a data problem' (#215)

@PatReynolds https://github.com/PatReynolds , @geoffj-FUG https://github.com/geoffj-FUG

My response that generated the "heat" was to the comment from Vino-S about verifying the data that person wanting a request has to put on the form in order for the system to accept the form. Vino-S specifically referred to the Mother's name and the GRO Indexes do not provide that data before the second half of 1911 - so we can't have people asking us to add data that is not in GRO Index, but they can use a Postem to provide it themselves.

On FreeBMD(1) a live person decides if they are going to do the requested change. It is clear from FreeBMD(1) that we will only correct our mistakes in the the GRO Index, we will not correct the GRO's mistakes. Even if this woman "The mother's surname is wrong! This is me, and my mother was Susan Jones!!!!" sends a copy of her mother's birth certificate, will we not correct the GRO's index. She needs to get the GRO to correct their index first and then when that is done, will we change our index. We will correct our mistakes.

I do hope that FreeBMD2 is not going down the path of machine-correction of our indexes, based on what someone asks us to do.

— You are receiving this because you were mentioned. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/FreeUKGen/FreeBMD2/issues/215#issuecomment-951609609 , or unsubscribe https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AKCPIFOMRUT6VDWI5A67V2LUIZLU7ANCNFSM4KWURIWQ . Triage notifications on the go with GitHub Mobile for iOS https://apps.apple.com/app/apple-store/id1477376905?ct=notification-email&mt=8&pt=524675 or Android https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.github.android&referrer=utm_campaign%3Dnotification-email%26utm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dgithub .

PatReynolds commented 3 years ago

Thanks for your useful input on this Philip and Geoff.

It seems on FreeBMD1 the system is set up to only take the facts of the change required (eg replace Jones with Smith) but no space for justification.

For Phase 3, the corrections system just needs to replicate the action of the form on FreeBMD1, but the system can be enhanced in Phase 5+.

PhilipClarke712 commented 2 years ago

To shed some light on this topic, I opened a change request on Edith Daisy Dent, on FreeBMD(1), printed it to Pdf and exited without submitting it. I know from long experience, that if the form is not filled in correctly, the system will not accept it. There may a log file that records this failed attempt of mine, but I don't have any knowledge of this aspect.

Its a Perl programme that, as a user, I can only run from an Entry Information Page. It shows the visible page, not the underlying code. Edith Daisy Dent.pdf

PhilipClarke712 commented 2 years ago

@PatReynolds ,

I don't know what is intended for FreeBMD(2) Phase 5+, but the system in operation in FreeBMD(1) does not appear in my view to be fully implemented in respect of communications to 'correctors' of pending requests nor give user feedback on "closed" requests: (1) As a researcher, when I submit a data-change request, if I tick the box, I receive an email that my request has gone in and will be considered and possibly a change will appear in the next one or two months (two up-date cycles). I've never ever been notified whether any request was excepted, rejected or partially implemented (as someone to does corrections on my transcriptions that is the information that I submit back to the system when I "close" a request). I can of course repeat the search at a late date and find out for myself if my change was processed. (2) I transcribe for two syndicates, one chooses (that is a syndicate choice) to do their corrections in bulk, but they let me do my own); the other syndicate choose to allow active users to do their own corrections. The requests system should notify either the syndicate or the user that a request has been raised. I believe that I can correctly state that we are not notified. We have to look, either at our syndicate or own requests application; or at the daily statistics.

I don't know how system change requests are managed on FreeBMD(1), but it might be worth checking whether there is an outstanding request to implement notifications.