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Frogging-Family / wine-tkg-git

The wine-tkg build systems, to create custom Wine and Proton builds
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[Question] Mortal Kombat 11 status #42

Open junaru opened 4 years ago

junaru commented 4 years ago

Hello frogs :)

Did anyone manage to get MK11 running with _mk11_fix="true" in their proton-tkg configs?

Scouring the internet brings up only one success story that appears to use an earlier version of current mk11.patch with non-protonified WINE.

So far i have:

None of this helped and im stuck at the splash screen.

I'm curious if "a different GPU driver than RADV" mentioned in proton-tkg.cfg doesnt mean "use non-AMD GPU" altogether, but even then it looks like Nvidia users at MK11 protondb have little luck as well.

Given the patch looks maintained can anyone share their results?

P.S. There are still some references to WINE_LOW_USER_SPACE_LIMIT in proton-tkg configs and it doesn't look like its needed anymore.

Thanks for any suggestions in advance.

Tk-Glitch commented 4 years ago

Guy1524 is the initial patch's author, and the last "big" update to the patchset was his. The note about RADV was also his own recommendation, but from memory it was working with -at least- amdgpu-pro. There was also something about controllers not working (maybe even preventing the game to run, I can't remember). I don't have the game myself so I can't really help with it.

Wine has been regressing steadily since 5.6 so it might be worth trying with 5.5, maybe. HEAD is completely breaking a huge list of games right now, and my hotfix patch is losing effectiveness day by day, so it might be one of the games currently killed.

I'll remove the mentions to WINE_LOW_USER_SPACE_LIMIT as they are indeed outdated.

junaru commented 4 years ago

Built proton-tkg from 0f35bf21cbf2d6edd1a4e3b08a7e4f9da0203759 (tag: 5.5.r2.g7fe7d87f) with:

_mk11_fix="true"
_plain_version="wine-5.5"
_staging_version="v5.5"

It didn't change anything.

Now that i think about it, this was probably a safety anchor for the pre-hotfix state and i should have gone with ace0aa4 (tag: 5.5.r2.g7fe7d87f.hotfix) but im postponing this path for reasons below.

As last resort i went for the prebuilt wine from the previously mentioned success story, sprinkled a bit of mf-install and a more recent dxvk and... mk11-amdgpu-pro

PROGRESS!!

The game does not shutdown cleanly and Xbox360 controller is not recognized neither with xpad nor with xboxdrv. But now i know this did work once on AMDGPU-PRO.

Version check shows a familiar suffix too:

$ /mnt/data/shady/bin/wine --version
wine-4.18.r9.g6e793996 ( TkG Staging Esync Fsync )

So now i'm on a quest to rebuild this wine-tkg from source with the patches either from the article or if they are included from the tree and try to bisect where things went south.

A quick glance did not show anything wine-4.18 related neither here nor on your personal page. Is there still a way to get to those repos?

Your build scripts are very pleasant to work with so it would be a huge time saver and make the starting point same as last known good configuration in regards to community patches and whatnot.

The hunt continues...

Tk-Glitch commented 4 years ago

The initial inclusion of the patch was with https://github.com/Tk-Glitch/PKGBUILDS/commit/c608376c474243cf7e8254999faeaf2e5db95e74 At the time, wine-tkg-git was part of the PKGBUILDS repo only, on the now archived master branch. You can find it and its history here: https://github.com/Tk-Glitch/PKGBUILDS/tree/master/wine-tkg-git

I didn't push a release for 4.18 for some reason I can't remember.

junaru commented 4 years ago

Tested five builds from wine-tkg ~4.21 to ~5.4 by fiddling with _plain_version and _staging_version.

Game is working in all of them. Got hit by 24hr DRM activation limit right as i was getting into 5.5 territory.

As it stands now wine-tkg 5.4 https://github.com/Tk-Glitch/PKGBUILDS/commit/2d02b0acf8b1c09854edb16ce43ca2072772e74f with:

_plain_version="c2ee20c95bea55069d32cfa69a95ae3e4486a02b"
_staging_version="a6f3bd989e1b2b5735d68dec67c144b6bc80aecf"

Is the last tested build, and it still works there.

Waiting for activation timers to reset...

Tk-Glitch commented 4 years ago

Yeah Denuvo is a huge PITA to do that kind of testing. Guy1524 was able to get things to run with 5.6 or 5.7 (couldn't find his message back). I'll be waiting for your results with interest. Considering the mk11 question is becoming somewhat usual now, I'm sure many people will be happy to know what to do to get the game to run.

junaru commented 4 years ago

I actually tested everything from wine-tkg 4.21 up to current HEAD yesterday. It all works with the in tree patches. So i think wine-tkg was never broken.

I then set the same wine and wine-staging commits and built proton-tkg. It doesn't work.

I'm currently bringing proton-tkg.cfg in line with wine-tkg.cfg disabling all the "hack/fix" lines one at a time

Will keep you posted.

Tk-Glitch commented 4 years ago

That's very interesting! A bad interaction with one of the proton patches/patchsets sounds pretty reasonable.

junaru commented 4 years ago

Went through all the IMHO relevant flags in ~/.config/proton-tkg.cfg. I copied it from proton-tkg-profiles/sample-external-config.cfg and then just disabled stuff by adding the same flags with false at the bottom. Nothing changed.

Hardcoded dxvk v1.6.1 url instead of latest in ./proton-tkg.sh just so it was the same version as my working wine-tkg prefix that i didn't want to fiddle with. That also didn't help.

Set _mk11_fix="false" disabling the patch entirely. This also didn't change anything and suggested that the issue is not related.

One thing I was avoiding during rebuilds is nuking the pfx in case of another 24hr DRM cooldown, but now i was out of ideas and this was my last shot... and it worked! (hold your smirk!)

It loaded past the splash screen, showed some disclaimers and crashed on intro movie. I quickly ran mf-install -proton with appropriate PROTON env var on the pfx and tried launching again.

It went past the intro and we are now getting equal results with both wine-tkg and proton-tkg, that is the game is running and is playable with most proton-tkg flags set to false.

I couldn't accept that i somehow fucked up a pfx, so i rebuilt proton-tkg again but this time with pretty much vanilla proton-tkg-profiles/sample-external-config.cfg and ran the game on this working pfx.

A dialog informs me that my pfx'es are being updated, a launcher shows and ... hangs - we are back where we started.

Change back to the 'all false' proton-tkg build, run game again, it again informs its upgrading pfx'es and hangs too.

Nuke the pfx, launch the game again with this 'all false' build, it goes all the way to intro, crashes, I mf-install, it loads and works fine again.

So i now suspect that one of the flags that's true by default breaks not the mk11 patch specifically but the whole pfx irreversibly and in a way that MK11 doesn't like. I already suspect which one but i need some sleep.

I'll keep digging tomorrow.

If anyone's interested my playground is https://github.com/Frogging-Family/wine-tkg-git/commit/8cf0735d19aef18be0482b2c55d7426eb6dead1b And working toys are wine-tkg.cfg and proton-tkg.cfg

Edit: say "y" to the hotfix.

junaru commented 4 years ago

Update: we now have controllers working thanks to pnevmoslon!

It's "_proton_fs_hack" fault, it must be set to false.

If the pfx is ever created or modified by build containing _proton_fs_hack="true" it breaks the pfx and game will hang at launcher. In that case you will need to delete the pfx and start again.

Steps to get it running

Checkout 8cf0735d19aef18be0482b2c55d7426eb6dead1b

~/.config/frogminer/proton-tkg.sh:

_plain_version="3bb824f98891e8eb907c9c652fe528373a17b10d"
_staging_version="24cd5774cf27f9dad6924fb64fffd0dacf164846"
_win10_default="false"
_proton_winetricks="false"
_mk11_fix="true"
_proton_fs_hack="false"

Apply controller patch:

$ wget https://github.com/Frogging-Family/wine-tkg-git/files/4688571/0001-mk11-gamepad-fix.zip
$ unzip 0001-mk11-gamepad-fix.zip
$ mv 0001-mk11-gamepad-fix.patch wine-tkg-git/wine-tkg-userpatches/0001-mk11-gamepad-fix.mypatch

Patch has to end in '.mypatch'!

Builld

$ cd proton-tkg
$ ./proton-tkg.sh

When asked about userpatches, say 'y':

/mnt/data/wine-tkg-git/wine-tkg-git/0001-mk11-gamepad-fix.mypatch
Do you want to install it/them? - Be careful with that ;)
> N/y : y

When asked about fd7992972b252ed262d33ef604e9e1235d2108c5-6.myrevert hotfix say "N" (default) (this doesn't change anything tbh).

Just to be sure nuke your pfx: $ rm -rf $steamlibrary/steamapps/compatdata/976310

Launch the game and let it crash after disclaimers.

offending link removed - using Guy1524's WIP mfplat patchset reportedly works as is

Launch game again.

Current status

Practice matches work.

Campaign was fully tested and works (Aftermath not tested)

Krypt works.

Controllers don't work, _sdl_joy_support="true" and _gamepad_additions="true" don't change anything. Any suggestions on getting this working are welcome. Update: we now have controllers working thanks to pnevmoslon!

Online doesn't work - you get disconnected as soon as the game starts: mk11-sesiondesync

Tk-Glitch commented 4 years ago

By the way, kisak's message in the Proton MK11 issue tracker was due to the mf-install link. It should be fine to repost it with the link edited out.

junaru commented 4 years ago

I knew Valve was hitting hard on that, but the 8min turnaround was impressive to say the least. I also posted on protondb beforehand so that's that. tumblr_m0w5jrNQMB1qjlctro1_500

junaru commented 4 years ago

Update: we now have controllers working thanks to pnevmoslon, see below

Stuck trying to get controller working. Only XBOX 360 Wireless controller (xpad) plugged in and only one device detected via "wine control > Game Controllers".

user_settings.py: "WINEDEBUG": "trace+relay,timestamp,+pid,+tid,+seh,+debugstr,+loaddll,+mscoree,+xinput",

With "+relay" the game crashes but its farther down the road. 00c0:00dc is the thread with xinput traces.

$ cat steam-976310.log | grep '00c0:00dc' > 00c0-00dc.log 00c0-00dc.log (440K) 

$ grep input 00c0-00dc.log

8595.689:00c0:00dc:Call xinput9_1_0.XInputGetState(00000000,0622fcb8) ret=140d3541a
8595.689:00c0:00dc:trace:xinput:XInputGetState Call KERNEL32.GetModuleHandleA(67506940 "ntdll.dll") ret=6750342b
8595.706:00c0:00dc:trace:xinput:init_controller Found gamepad L"\\\\?\\HID#VID_045E&PID_02A1&IG_00#256&030000005E040000A102000000010000&0&0#{4D1E55B2-F16F-11CF-88CB-001111000030}"
8595.706:00c0:00dc:Ret  xinput9_1_0.XInputGetState() retval=00000000 ret=140d3541a
8596.703:00c0:00dc:Call xinput9_1_0.XInputGetCapabilities(00000000,00000001,0622fca0) ret=140d3544e
8596.703:00c0:00dc:trace:xinput:XInputGetCapabilities (index 0, flags 0x1, capabilities 000000000622FCA0)
8596.703:00c0:00dc:Ret  xinput9_1_0.XInputGetCapabilities() retval=00000000 ret=140d3544e
8596.703:00c0:00dc:Call xinput9_1_0.XInputGetCapabilities(00000000,00000001,0622fc88) ret=140d354f1
8596.703:00c0:00dc:trace:xinput:XInputGetCapabilities (index 0, flags 0x1, capabilities 000000000622FC88)
8596.703:00c0:00dc:Ret  xinput9_1_0.XInputGetCapabilities() retval=00000000 ret=140d354f1
8596.719:00c0:00dc:Call ntdll.wcsncmp(01257a22 L"WINEDEBUG=trace+relay,timestamp,+pid,+tid,+seh,+debugstr,+loaddll,+mscoree,+xinput",7b087550 L"WINEDEBUG=",0000000a) ret=7b011ccf

retval=0 on all calls, the only semi-suspicious thing is the two 'XInputGetCapabilities' on the same controller in (quick?) succession.

$steamlibrary/steamapps/compatdata/976310/pfx/drive_c/users/steamuser/Local\ Settings/Application\ Data/MK11/UserSettings.ini`:

[General]
DirectInput = off

Changes nothing.

Tk-Glitch commented 4 years ago

@gardotd426 Here you go. Feel free to share your findings :)

gardotd426 commented 4 years ago

Thanks friend, I'll definitely report back

gardotd426 commented 4 years ago

Hey Etienne, I'm confused...

When asked about fd7992972b252ed262d33ef604e9e1235d2108c5-6.myrevert hotfix say "N" (default) (this doesn't change anything tbh).

I thought the default was yes? That whole message is a bit confusing, like double negatives with reversing, a previous fix that broke some stuff but does it revert the fix or revert the revert, it's super confusing.

When prompted during the build, what FIXES the problem, Y or N? Or is there a problem to be fixed? Or does pressing Y CAUSE the breakages, so you're being warned before pressing Y? It's like a Monty Python sketch.

Tk-Glitch commented 4 years ago

Yeah it was kinda funny. It was changed to be clearer since, but indeed it prompts you if you want to apply the hotfix. So you have to explicitly answer y, otherwise it defaults to upstream code.

gardotd426 commented 4 years ago

Okay, so we want Y then, right? I never really understood the original issue, from what it SEEMED, there was a regression upstream that broke a bunch of games, and your .myrevert patch fixes it, if applied, is that right?

Tk-Glitch commented 4 years ago

You got it

gardotd426 commented 4 years ago

@Tk-Glitch it hangs on splash screen. I let it sit for like 10 minutes, even though the game is installed on a rather fast nvme drive. I actually have to kill Steam to get it to stop. Idk what launch options I need, aside from using a non-RADV driver, but my current launch options are:

PROTON_LOG=1 PROTON_NO_ESYNC=1 VK_ICD_FILENAMES=/usr/share/vulkan/icd.d/amd_icd64.json:/usr/share/vulkan/icd.d/amd_pro_icd64.json %command%

I'm using your proton-tkg build with mk11_fix set to true, mf hacks set to false, with Guy1524's WIP patch, and I also ran the mf-install.sh -proton command posted above. Nothing's working.

gardotd426 commented 4 years ago

Log, if that helps: Log removed because it makes the issue unreadable. Please attach a file instead.

Tk-Glitch commented 4 years ago

Screenshot_20200527_140425 Have you tried that?

pnevmoslon commented 4 years ago

This patch is fixing the gamepad. I tested it for Proton-4.21-GE-2 and Proton-5.0-GE-1. 0001-mk11-gamepad-fix.zip

junaru commented 4 years ago

@pnevmoslon Awesome work! Thank you! Just tested and indeed at least Xbox360 wireless controller works.

Looks like the only thing left are the online issues.

gardotd426 commented 4 years ago

Ayyyyyyyyyy:

mk11

Turns out, I forgot I had copied a copy of proton-tkg.cfg to ~/.config/frogminer, so it was overriding my config settings, where I had set _proton_fs_hack to false. I have the gamepad patch applied, but haven't tested it yet, I'll check it out here in a bit.

gardotd426 commented 4 years ago

@pnevmoslon is that patch designed to fix all (within reason) controllers or is it just for Xbox 360 Wireless?

gardotd426 commented 4 years ago

@Tk-Glitch Hey just a suggestion but you should remove that link up there to the z0z0z repo, because I just got a link to this post removed because of that comment way up there that isn't even necessary anymore. We've got a fully (as fully as possible at the moment, at least) working Proton that is completely legal, but we can't link anyone here on the Valve issue tracker because kisak just removes the links immediately because of that link. Just a thought.

Tk-Glitch commented 4 years ago

I just removed the link. Let's not make Kisak's life miserable!

@pnevmoslon Nice! Do you mind if I add your patch to the mk11 patchset? Or if you prefer, to the community patches? Thank you.

pnevmoslon commented 4 years ago

@pnevmoslon is that patch designed to fix all (within reason) controllers or is it just for Xbox 360 Wireless?

Patch fixes segfault of thread reading gamepad events. No hardware-specific things. I tested Thrust Master Dual Trigger 3-in-1 and Logitech F310.

pnevmoslon commented 4 years ago

@pnevmoslon Nice! Do you mind if I add your patch to the mk11 patchset? Or if you prefer, to the community patches? Thank you.

Of course, I don't mind.

Tk-Glitch commented 4 years ago

Of course, I don't mind.

Thank you!

nvaert1986 commented 4 years ago

The game doesn't start using the build instructions above. I was able to successfully build proton-tkg. The game starts, shows the splash screen and then crashes. When starting the game using Proton 4.21-GE-2 the game starts fine. Is there anything I could be doing wrong? Compiled it using gcc-9.30

I basically just cloned it, modified the cfg file to include the lines below:

_win10_default="false" _proton_winetricks="false" _mk11_fix="true" _proton_fs_hack="false"

I added an additional line to apply the patches: _community_patches="0001-mk11-gamepad-fix.mypatch guy1524_mfplat_WIP.mypatch"

I also nuked my pfx. I'm using the NVIDIA binary driver 440.62.

P.S.: Now it started throwing an error about the Denuvo activation -_-

Tk-Glitch commented 4 years ago

modified the cfg file to include the lines below

_proton_winetricks="false" and _mk11_fix="true" are defaults, and defined in wine-tkg-git/proton-tkg/proton-tkg.cfg. _win10_default="false" and _proton_fs_hack="false" are not defaults, and defined in wine-tkg-git/proton-tkg/proton-tkg-profiles/advanced-customization.cfg.

Options set in advanced-customization.cfg will overwrite conflicting values from proton-tkg.cfg, if any. With what you explained, I'm pretty sure they were overwritten. If in doubt, you can verify which patches were applied in the wine-tkg-git/wine-tkg-git/last_build_config.log file.

gardotd426 commented 4 years ago

I don't know what happened, but this game isn't launching anymore. I tried to launch once earlier, got a crash after the splash screen. Every time I try to launch since, it just hangs, doesn't crash, no splash screen, nothing. I can't even kill the game, I have to use the terminal to kill every .exe and mk11-related process, then force steam to exit.

Here's the log: Log removed because it makes the issue unreadable. Please attach a file instead.

gardotd426 commented 4 years ago

Well my drivers were frogged, is what it was. I fixed that, but I think I may have found a bug here.

Story mode won't work. Yes, when starting a new story for the first time, the very, very first time you start it, it works. But I exited during the beginning of the story, and now when I go back to try to do Story Mode, it freezes on the "Chapter Select" menu. I've tried this 8 separate times, using both AMDVLK and vulkan-amdgpu-pro, and tried deleting the wineprefix.

What's supposed to happen, is the Chapter tiles are displayed on the left, and on the right a little preview scene video of the current highlighted chapter plays. Like when you hover your mouse over a youtube video and you see a clip start playing? Like that. Well, here, with your proton build, that doesn't happen. The left side is normal, but the right side is just blank where the scene should be, and the game hard freezes, you have to alt-tab out and kill it.

I deleted the Wineprefix, changed over to GE's 5.9 build, and sure enough, it doesn't freeze there. I would just report this problem and use his build, but for one, the cutscenes and all videos are all jacked up and blue and green, and there's no controller support at least not on this current version (and MK11 is unplayable with M&KB).

And yes, after seeing it work with his, I deleted the wineprefix again and went back to yours, no dice. I can't delete my progress and act as if I've never done the story mode, the sh!t got uploaded to WB's servers or something.

I feel like a log might not be much help, but if indeed it would, I'm happy to post it here (in file form, of course. Sorry I didn't know).

Worse comes to worst, I suppose I could try using an older build with the ol' z0z0z mf but I don't want to do that, we're trying to go legit, here. Besides that wouldn't solve anything.

gardotd426 commented 4 years ago

GE's aquamarine cut: DeepinScreenshot_select-area_20200529194007

Frogged version: DeepinScreenshot_select-area_20200529194221

Tk-Glitch commented 4 years ago

Sounds like missing libav, possibly vaapi.

gardotd426 commented 4 years ago

Wouldn't that not matter between this version and GE's?

How would I go about checking that? And would that be enough to make the game 100 percent hard freeze?

On Fri, May 29, 2020, 7:45 PM Etienne Juvigny notifications@github.com wrote:

Sounds like missing libav, possibly vaapi.

— You are receiving this because you were mentioned. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/Frogging-Family/wine-tkg-git/issues/42#issuecomment-636238574, or unsubscribe https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AM5Y333TN3CZ7ZVMH3TPLPLRUBCLHANCNFSM4NDSFHYQ .

Tk-Glitch commented 4 years ago

Wouldn't that not matter between this version and GE's?

It does. The GE build comes with some prebuilt libs (which apparently break on various distros, leading to those broken colors and friends), while -tkg relies on system libs.

How would I go about checking that?

On Arch, that would be gst-libav and libva-mesa-driver (lib32 if the game is 32-bit). AMDGPU-PRO also supports va-api/vdpau. It could also be related to some missing gst-plugins.

And would that be enough to make the game 100 percent hard freeze?

Absolutely. In my experience, all games using mfplat will hard freeze with the WIP patch when the decoders are missing/broken enough.

gardotd426 commented 4 years ago

yay -Q | egrep "libva|libav"

lib32-libavc1394 0.5.4-2
lib32-libva 2.6.1-1
lib32-libva-mesa-driver 20.0.7-3
libavc1394 0.5.4-4
libva 2.7.1-1
libva-mesa-driver 20.0.7-3

I was using the vulkan-amdgpu-pro driver, too.

But I installed gst-libav as it was the only one I was missing, I reopened the game, and it shows up, but still frog-o-vision:

DeepinScreenshot_select-area_20200529210026

Must just be a bug with the WIP patch, maybe? I've seen people report this to the Valve Proton thread referring to GE's version, but since it's not limited to his version, should this get reported to Guy? Or is there anything we can do to determine whether or not that's what it is and if it is the patch report it to Guy? Sorry I know you're busy holding down the pond but if there's anything I can do to try and help debug this I'm happy to do it.

Tk-Glitch commented 4 years ago

The patch is tagged as WIP for a reason. Derek is working on other stuff right now and he has planned to get back to mfplat once he's done. I'll keep this issue open and mention it to him. That way he'll be able to ask if he needs something.

gardotd426 commented 4 years ago

Oh yeah, I heard about that. No it's no big deal, just trying to help, let me know if there's anything we can do.

On Sat, May 30, 2020 at 6:03 AM Etienne Juvigny notifications@github.com wrote:

The patch is tagged as WIP for a reason. Derek is working on other stuff right now and he has planned to get back to mfplat once he's done. I'll keep this issue open and mention it to him. That way he'll be able to ask if he needs something.

— You are receiving this because you were mentioned. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/Frogging-Family/wine-tkg-git/issues/42#issuecomment-636308531, or unsubscribe https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AM5Y3373T33BFL2LHRZMK2DRUDKVVANCNFSM4NDSFHYQ .

pnevmoslon commented 4 years ago

Well my drivers were frogged, is what it was. I fixed that, but I think I may have found a bug here.

Can you tell what was with the drivers? I have the same problem. GE is working, TKG is not.

gardotd426 commented 4 years ago

@pnevmoslon read over my posts again. The drivers were regarding a completely different issue. I'd said I'd fixed that because the drivers were frogged, and then AFTERWARD I encountered the issue where GE's version would work and TKG's wouldn't. I'm no longer experiencing that issue, again as I've said, all I did was install gst-libav.

junaru commented 4 years ago

@pnevmoslon maybe leftover flags in user_settings.py ? I had similar issues a while ago while playing with +relay in WINEDEBUG.

pnevmoslon commented 4 years ago

@junaru compatibilitytools.d/proton_tkg_5.9.r0.g7b5a0e5a/user_settings.py "PROTON_LOG_COMMAND_TO_PREFIX": "1", "PROTON_USE_SECCOMP": "1", Other lines are commented. ./compatibilitytools.d/proton_tkg_5.8.r11.g24cd5774/user_settings.py is the same

I suspect the problem is in one of system libraries.

There is an exception 6ba at the end of log file. This log is from tkg-5.8. Now protection system has banned me for 24 hours and I can't get log from tkg-5.9. steam-976310.log.tkg_fail.zip

gverm commented 4 years ago

@pnevmoslon Would you mind sharing your real name, so that I can upstream your fix for the controller issue? My email is on my profile if you prefer to do it privately.

pnevmoslon commented 3 years ago

@gverm I had notifications disabled and just saw your message. I have added a real name to the profile, if it's still relevant.

joeyj43 commented 2 years ago

can some one help me get this running i would really appreciate it im on manjaro distro i been trying to figure this out for days i was following this tut https://software.kaminata.net/linux-wine-games/mortal-kombat-11-linux-dxvk-wine/ but the compiled wine mk11 patches link is deleted any help would be appreciated