Effect: Water

[Hakameda]

Which modpack version are you using?

2.0.4.6 #

If in multiplayer; On which server does this happen?

GTNH: Roller Derby #

What did you try to do, and what did you expect to happen?

Ocean bees and river bees have effect: water which should fill nearby water accepting things #

What happend instead? (Attach screenshots if needed)

Nothing, doesn't work #

What do you suggest instead/what changes do you propose?

Make it work, maybe a bucket every few seconds, could be an alternative water source

[damug]

Some quick research indicates the water effect may only work on buildcraft pipes and tanks. See https://www.reddit.com/r/feedthebeast/comments/28779o/bee_water_effect_any_affect/#ampf=undefined

[Hakameda]

Tried that, I too can use google. Doesn't work. Tried GT Machines, BC Tanks, Waterproof Pipes, GT Tanks, GT++ Tanks, GT Pipes. The only other post that mentioned it use to work at such a poor pace it wasn't worth it

On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 at 17:52, damug notifications@github.com<mailto:notifications@github.com> wrote:

Some quick research indicates the water effect may only work on buildcraft pipes and tanks. See https://www.reddit.com/r/feedthebeast/comments/28779o/bee_water_effect_any_affect/#ampf=undefined

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[MineAnPlay]

No, it works. It filled my damn oil pipes and was confused why they were filling up, then I realised my water bees are just above my oil pipes underground. It's not much water though.

I agree though, it should be alternative source of water, at least as fast or faster then a Reservoir (you need to setup bees to run non-stop and void excess drones and it will be more bulky then a Reservoir)

[draknyte1]

I like that you think GT & GT++ tanks are different things, They're 100% identical besides capacity.

[MineAnPlay]

So I did some testing, the Water effect "does" work BUT it's stupidly slow. Most likely it picks a random spot in it's territory every so often and if it fails it just resets. Every time it's successful at finding a valid tank it will spawn 100L of Water. Problem is it's so SLOW. I ran a test with around 50 tanks all around the apiary which was world accelerated with a UV accelerator and it only generated a total of about 3-4 buckets worth of water in around 20-30 mins. Also something else I saw was that it preferred certain positions over others so, it's either a pattern or just using a pseudo-random generator. It will work with anything using the IFuildHandler though so GT tanks, RC Tanks, BC tanks, Iron Tanks, GT Pipes will all work.

[Hakameda]

Hmm, So perhaps it picks even invalid spots that can't store water, I put it in a spot away from base with only a basic tank and after an hour, no water

[Hakameda]

Any chance of it being more usable? Maybe it could pick a block next to Apiary instead of randomly

[MineAnPlay]

I think we might have permission to edit Binne's Mods, if so yea we could change it. I can see 3 ways to do this: First one is to give it half or even quarter of it's territory and also increase the output to 1B everytime it's successful, Second one is to make it so it searches for all available tanks in range and give them water at about a bucket a second, Third one is to make it work like a reservoir where it will output to any of it's 6 sides and make it do around a bucket of water per side.

[Hakameda]

Probably searching next to the apiary would be the best way

On Thu, Jul 26, 2018, 8:43 AM MineAnPlay notifications@github.com wrote:

I think we might have permission to edit Binne's Mods, if so yea we could change it. I can see 3 ways to do this: First one is to give it half or even quarter of it's territory and also increase the output to 1B everytime it's successful, Second one is to make it so it searches for all available tanks in range and give them water at about a bucket a second, Third one is to make it work like a reservoir where it will output to any of it's 6 sides and make it do around a bucket of water per side.

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[draknyte1]

Sounds like OP free water from naturally generated bees (TF and other places spawn water hives) if they get changed up. /2cents

[richardhendricks]

Huh, so that explains how my smeltery kept getting little dribbles of water added to it.

I definitely think we need to make sure it is in the spirit of the pack to allow the effect.

[damug]

Possibly let it generate water in nearby tanks at about the same rate as a rail craft tank in an average biome, i.e. 10 mb per 8 seconds?

[Hakameda]

Or remove it from world gen bees. You have to do minimal breeding to get ocean bees anyway

On Thu, Jul 26, 2018, 10:31 AM damug notifications@github.com wrote:

Possibly let it generate water in nearby tanks at about the same rate as a rail craft tank in an average biome, i.e. 10 mb per 8 seconds?

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[Hakameda]

Requires automation to be great, should be better then water tanks.

On Thu, Jul 26, 2018, 10:43 AM Hakameda krestaicus@gmail.com wrote:

Or remove it from world gen bees. You have to do minimal breeding to get ocean bees anyway

On Thu, Jul 26, 2018, 10:31 AM damug notifications@github.com wrote:

Possibly let it generate water in nearby tanks at about the same rate as a rail craft tank in an average biome, i.e. 10 mb per 8 seconds?

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[draknyte1]

Doable on day one. Find village, steal an alveary, make some hoppers or other basic item movement setup. Get a pure drone and a princess, they'll breed forever. Not hard in any sense.

[richardhendricks]

Well, those might be plentiful on SSP, but on servers villages are stripped pretty fast.

If we keep it, I would prefer limiting it to only tanks touching the house/apiary to limit lag from searching.

Also, the amount given should be 1/4 of the water siding tank value, so maybe 2 or 3 L/8 seconds.

This way it could be a viable choice if someone wants to live underground or in a desert, but it would require a somewhat equivalent amount of work to equal a full size water tank.

[Hakameda]

Which makes it worthless

On Thu, Jul 26, 2018, 11:26 AM Richard Hendricks notifications@github.com wrote:

Well, those might be plentiful on SSP, but on servers villages are stripped pretty fast.

If we keep it, I would prefer limiting it to only tanks touching the house/apiary to limit lag from searching.

Also, the amount given should be 1/4 of the water siding tank value, so maybe 2 or 3 L/8 seconds.

This way it could be a viable choice if someone wants to live underground or in a desert, but it would require a somewhat equivalent amount of work to equal a full size water tank.

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[draknyte1]

Not when you can turn a single bee and drone into inifinite drones, which in turn can convert infinite other type princesses.

Scaling here is the issue because it's so damn easy with bees.

[0lafe]

Easy, reservoir bees. Needs eio reservoir block to breed, costs ocean and something else watery. Gives 1B/s per side.

Maybe easier to scale than reservoir, but the first couple would take longer to make, as well as take more infrastructure to setup. Need to cycle bees, as well as pull water.

[Hakameda]

Well sort of pointless then, the ticket was to make it not useless

[richardhendricks]

To be in the pack it has to be balanced. Just giving every fucking tank and pipe within the area free water is clearly so OP it's laughable.

[MineAnPlay]

I forgot it was a mundane bee effect but IMO it should be better then Water Tanks, early on you can't use the bees in deserts and underground so doesn't really help there. It should output 5-10L per tick to only it's adjacent sides.

[Hakameda]

Balanced is not the same as worthless. It's in the pack already, doesn't do much. It was an option to perhaps add. If the only ideas make it just as useless. There isn't a point, better to not waste any further time on it. I suggested it would just add to an adjacent tank. I picture it as better then a water tank, worse then thirsty or eio. Needs slight automations, only certain biomes because you don't have access to all traits yet. Only daytime, since it's not nocturnal. Needs sky. Those things would improve over time, but not that quickly

On Thu, Jul 26, 2018, 12:22 PM Richard Hendricks notifications@github.com wrote:

To be in the pack it has to be balanced. Just giving every fucking tank and pipe within the area free water is clearly so OP it's laughable.

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[richardhendricks]

See, those are valid arguments. With those considerations, I can agree to output equal to a water tank in a normal biome only to adjacent tanks. Would it be equal to all tanks, or in total though?

[Hakameda]

Total, probably easier if it searched for a tank. Found the first one then outputted to that

On Thu, Jul 26, 2018, 1:07 PM Richard Hendricks notifications@github.com wrote:

See, those are valid arguments. With those considerations, I can agree to output equal to a water tank in a normal biome only to adjacent tanks. Would it be equal to all tanks, or in total though?

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[Hakameda]

Output should be higher though. They are limited. More so then a water tank, 2-3x. Not so OP that it's the only choice but good enough to be a valid option if you got lucky and found alveraries or for people who would rather use those

On Thu, Jul 26, 2018, 1:12 PM Hakameda krestaicus@gmail.com wrote:

Total, probably easier if it searched for a tank. Found the first one then outputted to that

On Thu, Jul 26, 2018, 1:07 PM Richard Hendricks notifications@github.com wrote:

See, those are valid arguments. With those considerations, I can agree to output equal to a water tank in a normal biome only to adjacent tanks. Would it be equal to all tanks, or in total though?

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[richardhendricks]

Wait, do normal water bees do this? I have 1 bee house and a rando water bee from right next to my base and I recall water being put in tanks from it.

Anyways, with these limitations it seems fair to add them as an option to players

[draknyte1]

Wait, do normal water bees do this?

Yes, which makes them a non-trivial way to get op water easily if the values change. Just make the search smarter, cache tanks and then only iterate the tanks randomly. /2cents

[Hakameda]

The effect could be removed from base water bees. Though you get handed ocean bees for free with quests. I believe just needs imperials which isn't hard to get too. Then you can buy ocean bees with coins. Using adjacent tanks would be the least search intensive

[richardhendricks]

I'm ok with leaving it on base water bees tbh. 1 water tanks worth from 1 bee house/alveary isn't much

[Hakameda]

It really should be 2-3x water tank

On Thu, Jul 26, 2018, 1:35 PM Richard Hendricks notifications@github.com wrote:

I'm ok with leaving it on base water bees tbh. 1 water tanks worth from 1 bee house/alveary isn't much

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[richardhendricks]

OK, so proposal is

Only output water to attached fluid inventory. (need to adjust search algorithm) Base rate is 10 L/tick adjusted by production speed. Base water bee is slowest, so .3 = 3L/t or 60L/s Fastest production is 1.7x, so 20 L/tick or 340L/s

This is countered by starter bees not working underground or at night, and needing lily pads for flowers.

Also, compared to water tanks, they don't have a builtin tank so a tank would be necessary to provide water at night. No boost in the rain.

[Hakameda]

It's actually okay like that, because we can get fastest speed easily

On Fri, Jul 27, 2018, 12:01 PM 0lafe notifications@github.com wrote:

Or you could move it to ocean bees and give it a useful amount of water. 80L/s is pretty much nothing. If you're trying to run anything meaningful off them you'd need so many that there's no reason not to use thirsty tanks or eio reservoirs

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[richardhendricks]

I don't think it's to replace the 2nd tier of water gen, but replace or supplant the first tier, the water siding tanks, and offer alternatives for players who want to survive in a desert climate.

[richardhendricks]

seriously, has anyone survived off of cactus farming?

[MineAnPlay]

On my first play through I did but the extractor recipe for it is too slow :P.

[richardhendricks]

Well maybe that would be a worthwhile change for those interesting in doing a more vanilla solution to water? IDK. Seems like you would need quite the cactus farm to support a decent # of boilers and orewashers.

[MineAnPlay]

Cacti farm IMO is the easiest farm to make, only problem is the speed of the recipe which discourages it too much.

Scratch that, just checked the recipe and it's only 1.6s not 30-60s it was before :D. That's 312.5L of water per second so might be worth while.

[richardhendricks]

Well that's assuming you can keep an extractor full filled, and have one dedicated to making water.

[MineAnPlay]

Fluid Extractor isn't hard to craft and doesn't use much power and cactus farm just requires cactus, sand, cobble, string (or something that is similar), water and a hopper and it's infinitely expandable.

[richardhendricks]

String? A vanilla cactus farm "watering" a base might be funny.

[Hakameda]

It's a viable path if you breed bees, that should be an allowed thing. Won't replace eio or extra bees in early stages, bees are slow going intially

On Sat, Jul 28, 2018, 2:43 AM Richard Hendricks notifications@github.com wrote:

String? A vanilla cactus farm "watering" a base might be funny.

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[richardhendricks]

We have our own fork of Forestry, so we can adjust bees as we want.

OK, so proposal is

Only output water to attached fluid inventory. (need to adjust search algorithm). smallest range is 1 block effect, as range is increased effect range increases. Larger range could be disadvantage since it could miss a close by pipe.

Consdering output from stirling water generator, I think these numbers are ok. Base rate is 10 L/tick adjusted by production speed. Base water bee is slowest, so .3 = 3L/t or 60L/s Fastest production is 1.7x, so 20 L/tick or 340L/s

This is countered by starter bees not working underground or at night, and needing lily pads for flowers.

Also, compared to water tanks, they don't have a builtin tank so a tank would be necessary to provide water at night. No boost in the rain.

[Methes]

Sounds balanced. Rain would also stop their function so they work pretty much like solar boilers.

[Hakameda]

I feel like rain should increase it though

On Dec. 29, 2019 8:01 a.m., Methes notifications@github.com wrote:

Sounds balanced. Rain would also stop their function so they work pretty much like solar boilers.

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